Currently list building for an upcoming Store Championship and I'm looking at Wave 5 upgrade cards and how to combat some of the current 'meta'. The question I have is has anyone used Ruthlessness yet? I'm wondering about it's ability to hit/hurt swarms (both Rebel and Imperial), or at the very least to force opponents to fly out of formation. I'm currently looking at running it on three Black Squadron Pilots, supported by one 'heavy hitter/Phantom Hunter/Dash Chaser'.

Any one used it and found it successful?

Yes, I have used it in a list with col. Vessery and a Bounty hunter. Not only succesful, it is nasty!. AND its funny even when you end up firing at your own ships.

The trick is find a ship that doesn't need a defensive or action-related pilot talent. Vessery is probably not a bad idea, unless he needs VI. Maybe Kenkirk, Chiraneau, Vader (when he gets his x1), Scarlet or Fett? Seems like a difficult fit on Fighters, Interceptors, Phantoms, Bombers and Brath.

I've used it and it didn't trigger once, because I faced nothing but 2-3 ship builds all night.

Howlrunner (20)
TIE Fighter (18), Swarm Tactics (2)

Black Squadron Pilot (17)
TIE Fighter (14), Ruthlessness (3)

Black Squadron Pilot (17)
TIE Fighter (14), Ruthlessness (3)

Black Squadron Pilot (17)
TIE Fighter (14), Ruthlessness (3)

Black Squadron Pilot (17)
TIE Fighter (14), Ruthlessness (3)

Academy Pilot (12)

100 points

Anybody?

No I havn't tried Ruthlessness yet. For my taste 2 points would have been better for this upgrade, just because there are better 3-point elites ... and I fear the friendly fire

It completely depends on your local store. People tend to forget that the local and national scene can be and often are very different. For example since august the only phantom i've seen on the table is the one i flew twice on open play night once, while there are 4 small ship rebel builds everywhere.

Ruthlessness is in a weird place, an extra damage is to good for 2 points, but at 3 it competes with PTL and predator.

I find right now the Meta is 2-3 ships and when I've used it I've hit myself more then my opponent. When the meta swings back to 5+ ships it will be great!

it was great vs a decimator and a phantom. But i have only used it that one game (2 ship v 2 ship)

i killed a royal guard and echo in one shot, and have killed Tarn with out ever firing a shot at him.

ruthlessness is fun, but not game breaking.

i ran it on a bomber and dealt 8 damage in 2 turns of firing.

I posted a ruthless TIE fighter list a while ago. It's fun, instantly divides enemies, just you need to time your attacks and occasionally have to give some up I find,

There's really a good point here in the meta mostly being made up of 2-3 ship builds. This means formation flying is out right now and you will not get the trigger from Ruthlessness. In the mean time if you have a ships at range one of your target you will suffer the effect of Ruthlessness. So in my opinion I would avoid the upgrade for now and keep it in mind when the swarms start to come back in the picture.

I want to try:

Vader + Assault Missile + Ruthlessness + Title + Sensor Jammer

Its expensive, but he will absolutely destroy any squad that needs to fly in formation. If they go out of formation, no biggie as their synergy will be gone.

There's really a good point here in the meta mostly being made up of 2-3 ship builds. This means formation flying is out right now and you will not get the trigger from Ruthlessness. In the mean time if you have a ships at range one of your target you will suffer the effect of Ruthlessness. So in my opinion I would avoid the upgrade for now and keep it in mind when the swarms start to come back in the picture.

i will disagree, as dealing any amount of free damage to multiple targets is a good idea.

There's really a good point here in the meta mostly being made up of 2-3 ship builds. This means formation flying is out right now and you will not get the trigger from Ruthlessness. In the mean time if you have a ships at range one of your target you will suffer the effect of Ruthlessness. So in my opinion I would avoid the upgrade for now and keep it in mind when the swarms start to come back in the picture.

i will disagree, as dealing any amount of free damage to multiple targets is a good idea.

I too disagree, as dividing your opponents to pick them off one by one is priceless. Ruthlessness doesn't HAVE to do damage, it they split 3 ways and you can contain them without getting too close - great.

There's really a good point here in the meta mostly being made up of 2-3 ship builds. This means formation flying is out right now and you will not get the trigger from Ruthlessness. In the mean time if you have a ships at range one of your target you will suffer the effect of Ruthlessness. So in my opinion I would avoid the upgrade for now and keep it in mind when the swarms start to come back in the picture.

i will disagree, as dealing any amount of free damage to multiple targets is a good idea.

I don't think Ruthlessness is worth the occasional free damage if it is taking up points and slots that could be used for something else and is just as likely to hit your own ships as an enemy ship or cause you to hold your fire to avoid damaging your own ship.

When you are facing 4+ enemies in a list it might have some merit but when you are facing 2 and 3 ships lists there is really no reason for those ships to be within range one of each other unless they've got abilities or upgrades that require it. 2 or 3 ships can still do a good job of focusing fire without being within range 1 of each other.

With the current state of the meta bringing Ruthlessness is just as likely to hurt you as it is your opponent.

it was great vs a decimator and a phantom. But i have only used it that one game (2 ship v 2 ship)

Why was that Phantom anywhere near the Decimator? Even without Ruthlessness in play the Phantom wants to be in the open without the Decimator limiting its decloak options.

i will disagree, as dealing any amount of free damage to multiple targets is a good idea.

I too disagree, as dividing your opponents to pick them off one by one is priceless. Ruthlessness doesn't HAVE to do damage, it they split 3 ways and you can contain them without getting too close - great.

Dash w/ Outrider and Heavy Laser Cannon Paired with another single ship will make up a significant portion of the new meta. The objective to kill Dash seems to get inside range one of him. This means a ship shooting at Dash with Ruthlessness will effectively be killing your own ships who take advantage of Dash's weakness. Dont take Advantage of Dash's weakness and he will just kill you. You can also add in the VT-49 builds to that scenario.

So, Yes Ruthlessness is a very effective tool in splitting up formation flying. If your Oponent is already splitting up reguardless you wasted 3 points on an upgrade that could only hurt you. If you want to turn a blind eye to what is going on in the meta Ruthlessness is the upgrade for you..............

Thanks for the replies guys, lots of food for thought. I'm just wondering what people are using to counter swarms these days? I've got my build in mind and a large part of it is geared towards countering Phantoms and the new Dash builds. The idea behind using TIE's was initially to go some way to challenging Han builds, but I'm still worried about swarms and their effect on a four ship build. The reason I was asking about Ruthlessness was in an attempt not just to increase damage against ships in close formation but also an attempt to force swarms into flying further apart, thus losing some of their advantage. Suggestions anyone?

How often are you seeing swarms in your area?? Swarms for the most part are few and far between in the meta anymore and some areas haven't seen the swarm in months. When wave 4 ( in particular The Phantom ) was released there was a hugh decline in the tie swarms. A few rebel swarms got tossed around but really never got off the ground well.

The battle for Pilot Skill seems to still being going on with X-Wing currently to counter the Wisper + VI builds. This has not changed much since the realease of Wave 5. The popular opinion is Wisper is a hard counter to the Dash builds exposing his weakness of the blind spot. SO since Wisper will remain as a favorsable ship to deal with Dash and is a know answer to Swarms, it's not a good choice to fly swarms right now.

You could build in your Anti Swarm tech with your squad or simply let the meta be your Anti Swarm tech....

I honestly thought this was going to be one of the defining cards of the Wave V meta and I really am surprised it isn't. It equates to free damage as a reward for skillfully using your formstion to your advantage. The people above me are right about the current large and powerful 2-3 ship meta being the main contributor to it not appearing, but somehow I feel it will make a big appearance when Scum finally get here and Imperials get their hands on the Raider.

it was great vs a decimator and a phantom. But i have only used it that one game (2 ship v 2 ship)

Why was that Phantom anywhere near the Decimator? Even without Ruthlessness in play the Phantom wants to be in the open without the Decimator limiting its decloak options.

because it wanted shots and i backed it into the corner with the decimator. I also had a decimator who was ramming things Ostyle.

It's worth noting, too, in a 2-3 ship meta, 3pt EPTs like predator or even outmaneuver are going to probably be better over the course of an entire game than ruthlessness.

The popular opinion is Wisper is a hard counter to the Dash builds exposing his weakness of the blind spot. SO since Wisper will remain as a favorsable ship to deal with Dash and is a know answer to Swarms, it's not a good choice to fly swarms right now.

I think you've nailed it. Not only does Whisper do a decent job of countering Dash, the Decimator and Whisper complement each other very nicely. They are each strong against the other's weakness.

Hit a swarm build? Let the VT-49 soak up the damage while Whisper flits around picking off the swarm.

Hit a Fat Turret? Let the Decimator wrestle with the other Fatty while Whisper cleans up its support and then comes back to help with the damage race.

Hit another Phantom? Whisper dances around in the Decimator's 360 and they both hammer away at the other Phantom's support until they force it to engage.

My local league winner in town absolutely annihilates with a Whisper and Chirpy list. He's just infuriatingly good with it.

I'd certainly avoid running multiple copies of Ruthlessness on several TIE Fighters. A few things to remember:

1. The attack needs to hit to hand out bonus damage. Two dice attacks aren't always reliable.

2. Ruthlessness only hits one other ship. This is no Assault Missile.

3. It may not splash back on you but if there is another ship within R1 of the hit target, even if it's yours, damage will be dealt.

It's not something I'd spam especially in a squadron such as the Swarm that really would like to be taking R1 shots at a target. I think it can be interesting when used on a ship with a good attack but few allies to worry about. There it helps disrupt that formation flying which could be the bane of your list.