Not sure if there is a thread about this already, but what about using the Mangler Cannon on a YT-2400 with outrider?

It wouldn't have any donut hole, but unlike the ion Cannon it can do up to three damage, and instead of turning crits to hits, you get to turn hits to crits.

What do you guys think?

I like the Mangler on the original Kath. Her ability would pop more

it's been discussed a fair bit already. So far, opinions are split.

Or at least, everyone (mostly) agrees it will be totally solid on an Outrider, but people are split about whether it will be better than a HLC or not.

Personally i think 4 dice over 3 is a huge deal, and with the 2400's mobility the donut is a price i'm happy to pay.

However it is also 3 points cheaper, which is a big thing too.

I think both ways will be totally viable really. I'll probably prefer the HLC, but if points are required i'd shed no tears about changing to a Mangler to free them up.

After having Soontir Fel single-shippedly take Dash apart twice now by abusing the donut, I'm glad the Mango Cannon isn't out yet.

I'm 50/50 between Mangler and Heavy Laser. Like Extropia, I feel 4 dice are better than 3. But the Mangler does sound like a good alternative, sacrificing 1 die for a bit extra punch.

I'm going to be scientific about it. Play out games against different lists with one, then repeat with the other.

Fact is it's not about winning or losing, it's about which weapon suits how I fly the YT-2400. So I'm going to use the donut as is first, get the feel for how I fly, then try out the weapons.

My hunch is that the HLC's vulnerability will eventually lose favor to the shoot at any range Mangler, even if you lose a die.

Mangler is certainly safer, but the HLC has the bigger payoff if you can use it well.

It's quite a nice risk vs reward choice really.

Might be worth considering that the Mangler inflicts at least one crit, while the HLC inflicts no crits whatsoever.

... the HLC inflicts no crits whatsoever.

The HLC can inflict critical damage. If combined with rerolls or some upgrades (mercenary copilot, marksmanship).

The mangler certainly inflict critical damage more often than the HLC.

Might be worth considering that the Mangler inflicts at least one crit, while the HLC inflicts no crits whatsoever.

Initially, but most super dash builds run PTL and kyle (crew) so they can often get a target lock and focus and since HLC only converts initial crits into hits you can still crit them with a target lock re-roll sometimes.

Edit:

... the HLC inflicts no crits whatsoever.

The HLC can inflict critical damage. If combined with rerolls or some upgrades (mercenary copilot, marksmanship).

The mangler certainly inflict critical damage more often than the HLC.

Or Rexler Brath. Still, special cases.

After having Whisper eat Dash a few times recently, I think I'll be trying out the Mangler when it arrives. I expect I will like removing the drawback over the extra dice (which can be fickle anyway)

I think an interesting thing about the Mangler is that It will make your choice of wingmen for Dash different. I am currently using wingmen which can help him in the event that something does get in the hole. In the future, using the Mangler, you'd e much more free to use ships which support the firepower since you wouldn't have to worry about the hole so much.

That all said, I think a bigger question is how will autothrusters impact either Dash build when it comes out. I honestly think the HLC will lose out here, since it won't be so easy to kill squints, who already annoy him to death a lot.

In my opinion mangler is better and here is my reason. Basically if you take hlc your paying 5 pts for outrider and 7 for hlc and because of the donut hole you are usually in need of EU to keep people away from range 1. That brings your total to 16 pts. Then we also see ptl a lot for the boost barrel rolls to guarantee that range 2-3 shot from hlc. There goes another 3 points taking your total to 19 pts. Now granted you don't have to run dash with this set up but I've seen it a lot because of the fear of no shot at range 1. You could equip prockets but it's not a turret and doesn't help you if getting shot from the sides or back and again more points sunk into the ship. On the other hand you use mangler cannon and outrider that gets your total to 9 pts and no donut hole. This means EU is no longer needed and ptl unless you want dual actions. Using hlc it's almost necessary to equip dash with the aforementioned upgrades but using mangler you don't really need to. In my opinion it's saving you 10 pts to use other upgrades or up your pilot on support ships. Some will say you don't need to equip dash that way with hlc and that they have done just fine and that's great but overall I just think mangler cannon is more points efficient and safer.

After having Whisper eat Dash a few times recently, I think I'll be trying out the Mangler when it arrives. I expect I will like removing the drawback over the extra dice (which can be fickle anyway)

I think an interesting thing about the Mangler is that It will make your choice of wingmen for Dash different. I am currently using wingmen which can help him in the event that something does get in the hole. In the future, using the Mangler, you'd e much more free to use ships which support the firepower since you wouldn't have to worry about the hole so much.

That all said, I think a bigger question is how will autothrusters impact either Dash build when it comes out. I honestly think the HLC will lose out here, since it won't be so easy to kill squints, who already annoy him to death a lot.

This is a great point. Autothrusters will have a big impact on the upgrades Dash will want to take. Mangler does give you that chance to hit with that (sometimes) powerful crital hit but reduces you down to 3 dice. A 3 agility ship with Autothrusters will be very tricky to score hits on with only 3 dice especially ships already taking a focus and evade action. Tie Interceptors with Puch The Limit and Autothrusters will seem almost unkillable with the Mangler in my opinion. Here is where the HLC will prove to be more effective agaist these ships. This of corse will open the maneuverability of the squint to take advantage of the donut hole. It's almost as if the game has balance or somthing

Yep....3 dice attacks are almost futile against Focus+Evade Autothruster Squints, so that will be a big deal. Sure, if you throw enough 3 dice shots you'll eventually cause 1 damage here or there, but you'll never put them down in time.

4 dice is a MUCH higher chance of causing solid damage, but.....that donut

AS soon as autothrusters come out HLC dash is done for as soontir and friends can move after him and use boost to exploit the doughnut hole, the mango cannon removes that issue and allows you to make any hits that get through into crits.

Soontir and friends can already do that....Autothrusters change nothing in that regard. The Mangler does next to nothing at all ranges against AT PtL Stealth Interceptors, whereas at least the HLC can hurt them consistently (kind of) out of the donut.

AS soon as autothrusters come out HLC dash is done for as soontir and friends can move after him and use boost to exploit the doughnut hole, the mango cannon removes that issue and allows you to make any hits that get through into crits.

If Dash has a Target Lock and Focus for his Mangler Cannon and the Tie Interceptor has Focus and Evade the expected damage output will be a 30% chance to cause 1 damage. once you add in Autothrusters to the Interceptor it drops to well below 10% chance of causeing 1 damage. So you would have to consider 30 shots to kill a Tie Interceptor to effectily rely on killing it mean while the return fire 3vs2 with both being focused has an expected damage output of 107% mean you should avarage at least 1 hit every attack. this will only take 10 shots. Now if we consider the range 1 attack that only benifits the Interceptor it takes much less than 10 attacks for him to kill Dash while Dash will gain no advantage vs the Interceptor. So the odds are against Mangler being the better choice against Autothrusters.

AS soon as autothrusters come out HLC dash is done for as soontir and friends can move after him and use boost to exploit the doughnut hole, the mango cannon removes that issue and allows you to make any hits that get through into crits.

If Dash has a Target Lock and Focus for his Mangler Cannon and the Tie Interceptor has Focus and Evade the expected damage output will be a 30% chance to cause 1 damage. once you add in Autothrusters to the Interceptor it drops to well below 10% chance of causeing 1 damage. So you would have to consider 30 shots to kill a Tie Interceptor to effectily rely on killing it mean while the return fire 3vs2 with both being focused has an expected damage output of 107% mean you should avarage at least 1 hit every attack. this will only take 10 shots. Now if we consider the range 1 attack that only benifits the Interceptor it takes much less than 10 attacks for him to kill Dash while Dash will gain no advantage vs the Interceptor. So the odds are against Mangler being the better choice against Autothrusters.

But sir your model fails to include the dice gods who at a whim make a mockery of all statistics.

Yep....3 dice attacks are almost futile against Focus+Evade Autothruster Squints, so that will be a big deal. Sure, if you throw enough 3 dice shots you'll eventually cause 1 damage here or there, but you'll never put them down in time.

4 dice is a MUCH higher chance of causing solid damage, but.....that donut

so everyone will run HLC Heavy Scyks

the meta will be overrun with swarms of glass cannons

madness will ensue

AS soon as autothrusters come out HLC dash is done for as soontir and friends can move after him and use boost to exploit the doughnut hole, the mango cannon removes that issue and allows you to make any hits that get through into crits.

If Dash has a Target Lock and Focus for his Mangler Cannon and the Tie Interceptor has Focus and Evade the expected damage output will be a 30% chance to cause 1 damage. once you add in Autothrusters to the Interceptor it drops to well below 10% chance of causeing 1 damage. So you would have to consider 30 shots to kill a Tie Interceptor to effectily rely on killing it mean while the return fire 3vs2 with both being focused has an expected damage output of 107% mean you should avarage at least 1 hit every attack. this will only take 10 shots. Now if we consider the range 1 attack that only benifits the Interceptor it takes much less than 10 attacks for him to kill Dash while Dash will gain no advantage vs the Interceptor. So the odds are against Mangler being the better choice against Autothrusters.

Jan Ors?

For reference, the jousting values for Dash with Mangler are in my MathWing thread. He becomes more or less like any other turreted ship, except he can dodge rocks, still wants to stay at range 3, and gets a free hit to critical.

I think the mangler will be seen more on the generic, since yo don't need to worry about pilot skill and push the limit to keep people out of the hole... HLC will still be seen mostly on dash.

I'm excited about the Mangler Cannon. It eliminates the main weakness of any Dash list, but also consider the point reduction. It's not about what your Dash can and cannot do, or what it doesn't do now, but about what you can fit in your list with those extra 3 points.

I'm already running Dash with Nien Nunb instead of Kyle Katarn...this is the 56 point Dash (Outrider, Heavy Laser Cannon, Nien Nunb, Push the Limit, Engine Upgrade). The remaining 44 points are perfect for two B-Wings. After playing this is as good as it sounds. You have 3 durable ships with 3/4 attack dice...it's awesome. My biggest worry is the donut hole. Aces with Engine/mobility are able to take advantage of this (including Han w/ Engine). With Mangler I can focus less on having to arc dodge via barrel roll/boost (which is impossible against higher pilot skill btw...like Han), and ensure I get a shot in each round.

The extra 3 points to my already 44 point list brings me to 47 points. You can do all sorts of things at this point...it really opens up some possibilities.

Anyway, the point being is that 3 points can change the REST of your list, so you can add firepower in other places or add some other tactics to what you have going on. The mangler cannon even has me considering dropping engine all together and go with something like one of these:

Blue Squadron B-Wing + E2/Mod + Tactician (25)

Blue Squadron B-Wing + E2/Mod + Tactician (25)

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Nien Nunb + Outrider + Mangler Cannon (49)

--Total: 99 Points

or

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Nien Nunb + Outrider + Mangler Cannon (49)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

--Total: 97 Points

AS soon as autothrusters come out HLC dash is done for as soontir and friends can move after him and use boost to exploit the doughnut hole, the mango cannon removes that issue and allows you to make any hits that get through into crits.

If Dash has a Target Lock and Focus for his Mangler Cannon and the Tie Interceptor has Focus and Evade the expected damage output will be a 30% chance to cause 1 damage. once you add in Autothrusters to the Interceptor it drops to well below 10% chance of causeing 1 damage. So you would have to consider 30 shots to kill a Tie Interceptor to effectily rely on killing it mean while the return fire 3vs2 with both being focused has an expected damage output of 107% mean you should avarage at least 1 hit every attack. this will only take 10 shots. Now if we consider the range 1 attack that only benifits the Interceptor it takes much less than 10 attacks for him to kill Dash while Dash will gain no advantage vs the Interceptor. So the odds are against Mangler being the better choice against Autothrusters.

The one benefit to the mangler cannon is that the shots that do get through will be crits, and they can ruin a squint's day pretty quick