The Mountain expansion is one of the most dangerous places in the world of Talisman.

In Third edition, it came in one box with the Dungeon expansion.

It is filled with dangerous traps, like Tumbling Boulders, Landslides, Hidden Chasm, Snow Storms, High Cliffs etc

High atop the snowy mountains stands the Eagle King !

He is looking for someone who has the strength to beat him !

Do you have the guts to challenge him?

You also find the Castle of the Ice Queen here !

Look out for her, because she can change you in a toad !

You never know what her intentions are !

Will the Mountain expansion become the next Region ?

We will see about that in the future !

I think there will be a new mountain region similar to 3th. edition, just larger like the dungeon.

I look forward to see what the maybe new mountain region will offer.

Any cracy idea ?

One famous creature that lives in the mountains is Medusa !

I hope that FFG make her stronger than the third edition version.

Or that she has special abilities, so that she can only be defeated if a character has a mirror (magic object)

To add something to this topic,

I also like to see the three Witches from the greek mythologie who lives in the mountains

It would be nice if they use spells on you

Medusa was a "Gorgon," of which there were three (she had two sisters, Stheno, and Euryale). And they were descended of oceanic deities - or rather the cthonic depths, and not actually even humanoid in shape until very late graeco-roman artists starting scupting and painting them as such. She (or they) would not be part of the mountains, especially since by one myth she was once the mate of Poisedon and was pregnant thereby when Perseus killed her (and thereby also killing a divine child). If she (they) were to be introduced to Talisman , hopefully they'd be more interesting that just an excuse for a high powered Craft based monster. And just maybe a little actual research could lead in a better direction.

By three witches, perhaps this refers to either the unnamed "crones" (a Greek absorption of the norse Norns, or Three Fates) from back in the days when the word "witch" didn't even exist (yes, it was Christian term that came later as demonization of earlier earth/sea-bound and matriarchal ideologies). Or maybe this referes to the Graeae of Graeco-Roman mythology. Either way, again associated to the oceanic or cthonic deities left over from earlier times during the rise of the Rome and predominance of the Greek scholars. Still, as they are usually associated to Fate... some good notions might be possible for the new Fate attribute in 4ER.

Neither of these are suitable for a moutain realm, no matter what was done in the claymation era of fantasy movies.

However, some of the Aztec, Mayan, Norse, and Goth mythologies have some excellent notions very suitable to Mountains. There are also the fallen Titans and their servant beasts to consider in the Graeco-Roman myths. Again, hopefully for something more interesting that just a picture on another enemy... something much nastier!

The Eagle King is likely a very generic take on the supramythos of the King of the Mountain (Wikipedia). Much as I find most of Wikipedia to be a joke, its still a usable jumping off point for better research elsewhere, leading to much more interesting notions. There may be some more fun notions to be found therein for a new Mountain realm. Another angle would be to search " mountain mythology " and " moutain folklore ."

JCHendee said:

I know that medusa has 2 sisters. But Medusa is the only one who is human but changed to a half human/snake by hera?

As far as i know, the other 2 sisters are different. they have a stone body of some sort...

Medusa was also in the mountains of third edition, but i hope that FFG make her more dangerous...

There can easily be a temple in the mountains where she lives...

--------

Have you ever see Clash of the Titans? I remember that there are three witches there..

I like that they will be included in the talisman world..

Harpies are also living there, but the cards are made for the main board and they drop you somewhere in the mountains..

****! Another post gets zapped into the Black Void by this sucky forum. I'll have to get back to you later, V.

Well... the QUOTE tags have completely stopped working for me, so...

"I know that medusa has 2 sisters. But Medusa is the only one who is human but changed to a half human/snake by hera?"

Nope. You're leaning on the writings of Ovid, as most people do. Ovid was his era's version of Dante. Dante took the mythologies, figures, symbols, etc. of other religions of old, demonized them, and created his fictional nine planes of hell. Ovid took the old, older, religions and myths and re-wrote them for his fictions. All three gorgon were exactly the same; Ovid wrote medusa as human, who was later changed by one of the Greek goddesses (don't remember which one). He was reviled in his day by theologians, but hailed by the aristocracy because his work had a patriarchal tilt versus the older matriarchal standard. His fictions became popular and now are often confused with the original myths... just like people now think Dante's Inferno is the be-all end-all of the true metaphysical nature of the Catholic (or general Christian) hell. The Gorgons as a triple set mirror many of the more ancient uses of 3s in matriarchal etheric symbology. That concept of the triples was later adopted in the patriachal systems, which inevitably found its way into monotheism as well.

"As far as i know, the other 2 sisters are different. they have a stone body of some sort..."

Not that I'm aware of... though if you know of such on record, I'll bet risk a dollar to your dime it goes directly back to the work of Ovid.

"Medusa was also in the mountains of third edition, but i hope that FFG make her more dangerous...There can easily be a temple in the mountains where she lives..."

Then likely she'll be there again, mistakenly. As to the temple part, that's at least partially accurate. The Gorgons were enslave by the new gods as guardians of sacred places. So in essence, they were the good guys, and the so-called "heroes" were evil brute meat-heads violated sanctuaries in their "quests" as the newer Greek gods used mortals for their little games of spite.

"Have you ever see Clash of the Titans? I remember that there are three witches there... I like that they will be included in the talisman world."

The work of Ray Harryhausen in that and others of those early claymation films is where most people get their notions of Graeco-Roman mythology... which are almost completely wrong in what they show, even compared to Ovid's fictional works. The three witches in question were the Crones, an assimilation of the Norse Norns or Three Fates.

I agree they would make killer additions, if they were done correctly. If they're just going to be some lame excuse for another stock enemy or stranger(s), then don't bother. They REALLY need to be makers and shakers of Fate in the Talisman world to be worth it. I'd love to see them really mess with adventurers, their Fate points, and maybe even some kind of nasty quest, geas, or onus on the hapless adventurer who encounters them.

"Harpies are also living there, but the cards are made for the main board and they drop you somewhere in the mountains."

ANother problem... Harpies are not evil. They vary as widely as human beings in their outline, and many cases were akin to the Viking Valkyries, except they were of this world and utterly mortal. But definitely the Harpies need to be and Adventure card introduced right along with the Mountain realm.

JCHendee said:

oke, i saw on google artwork of those sisters. they look like that they have a stone body..

It's good to know then that medusa's sisters are officially human..

Anyway... it's athena who changed Medusa to a half snake/human ( found it on google easily)

JCHendee said:

oh oke, so.. a other name for them, are the Crones..

Well, there is already a Crone enemie in the talisman deck.. But she is weak..

I agree that if they are also called the three Fates, that it has something to do with Fate in talisman..

JCHendee said:

Not Evil? In games and many movies, they are always evil..

Maybe that they can use the harpies for the mountains And mainboard... ( the card was used to drop you somewhere in the lost city if you draw the Harpies on the main board..

Yeah, that whole thing of any chimeric being (a being composed of different creature parts) always being evil (unless attractive, like a winged horse) is a bit cliche and juvenile. The Gorgons were indeed guardians of sacred (not curse) places, so how in the world could they ever be evil, so to speak? (wink, and think).

The Crones (a generic term) was a non-Catholicized reference term used by many mythologist when referring those of Graeco-Roman reference. Calling them witches was a Catholicism reference that came latter. But many mythologists agree they are likely an absorption of the Norns. They would probably be Neutral at best in Talisman, more concerned with the Fate of all things and individual things, so would be fun as a more potent variation on the Mystic to pop up as Strangers.

The Harpies were often servants (pawns) of varied gods and powerful individuals on all aligned sides, so utterly unpredictable ... oh, and they weren't ugly, as we usually see them, but rather alluring. There were several breeds if one mixes up Ovid with all the other sources; the most common were woman/eagle and woman/vulture combos. And for unpredictability, they still certainly work for snatching up an adventurer, regardless of its alignment, and dropping it in the Mountains. They are kind of like the whole trapdoor Adventure card... a way to make sure that once in a while someone ends up in the Mountains (or Dungeon)... but they could be much more.

Harpies (roll 1 die) to see where they carry you

1. Crags
2. Chasm
3. Cursed Glade
4. your Starting Space
5. your choice of the graveyard or chapel
6. your choice of any space in your region

Or even a roll to see how much their alignment differs for the adventurers... and how helpful or spiteful they might be because of that.

Talisman likes to keep things simple, and (too) often automatic. But simple doesn't have to mean bland, cliche, stereotypical, or monotonous. Might even be fun to have more than one Harpies (or other) cards, considering its a breed of creature and not limited to one or few. And each cards (say 3?) could even do something a little different.

JCHendee said:

I give it a try...

First they are the daughters of a god? ( Poseidon)

So the gods don't want to send them to curse places, but instead they rather want to use them to protect something...?

second..( maybe that medusa became evil because she hate what the gods did to her?

I hope i am close to the answer..

JCHendee said:

Making strangers of the Crones don't sound bad..

I think it's actually a very good solution to it..

FFG should only find a good text for it, so it become a interesting card. ( maybe they can do something dangerous too, and that you can't evade them. ( otherwise it's to easy)

JCHendee said:

3 sounds good, but it depends on how many cards there are in the main deck.

We have at this moment 2 trapdoors, but if the frostmarch expansion will be added to the main deck, then the chance to draw a trapdoor will decrease a lot..

I think that we need some more cards like the trapdoor card to make it interesting and dangerous.

I have made a house rule, by using the old trapdoor card from third edition and i like it..

This means off course that the trapdoor from FFG is not dangerous enough.

I am really looking forward to the Frostmarch expansion, and i wonder if a lot of dangerous traps will be included..

Thank you both (Velhart and JCHendee) for your insight into various possible mythical characters for Talisman. As for me, I don't really care if the crones are good or evil, realistically represented or not, as Talisman is a fantasy game. If FFG research theses mythical beings to bring more realism and teach or make you more currious about some mythology then great but the main goal for me is that it should put some new twist into the game and the game should be more dangerous because of the magical creatures involved, gorgon, harpies and demi-gods are no pushovers!!!

I want more hack and slash, and more twist and danger in Talisman

What do you want? more realism or more fun!!!

Come closer I will not kill you.... oups, my bad

Cheers

Old Master said:

Same thing to me... but I guess you missed that part. Verisimilitude brings richness, diversity, danger (or more accurately, challenge), and hence fun. Pictures only go so far to mask the same old numbers over and over.

Hey V., excellent idea to grab that 3E trapdoor. Have you also thought about just going after the 2E dungeon "back" door as well. Maybe as your deck grows, you'll need some different ways of finding (or falling, or getting tossed) into either the Dungeon or Mountains. Can't hurt to have a few different ways for it to happen, so it's not the same thing every time.

As to your take on the tale of the gorgons origins, by some sources (particularly parts of Ovid), you're close to the mark. But not so much on the older tales. Other sources claim they were created when one of the "old ones" of the "deep" (cthonic mythologies) was killed by Athena and drops of its blood fell upon the shore. There are a couple of other tales, I believe, but I can't remember them right now.

Oh, and some researchers claim the whole petrification thing when someone looked upon a gorgon wasn't about being turned to stone. It was about dying of such massive instant horror that their bodies became instantly stiffened and as every muscle locked in place. Now imagine them standing there like that in death. A secondary effect was that anyone looking upon the faces of those decaying dead went utterly mad. Not sure which is worse. Gruesome, huh? It does somewhat fit with the cthonic theme... if we lean on the fiction of Lovecraft as well.

It's a real pain in the butt to look at myths out of Greece and Rome... since after Ovid, ever hack poet in the region starting vomiting notions onto parchment in a rush to curry favor. What gets forgotten these days is that they weren't recording myths... they were writing popular fiction, in a particular format, and within the proper cultural perspective for their time and place. And yeah, Ovid really started something that muddy all the waters of historical mythology in the west.

JCHendee said:

I use the dungeon doors in my deck, but i do not like them so much, because you can also walk to the dungeon, but if you want to reach the dungeon faster, then it is good to take a shortcut, but i like traps more..

What do you mean with back- door...

It gives me the idea, by using the door and land somewhere in the middle of the dungeon..

I have also change the Burrow Wurm a little.. ( if you lose the combat, than you are falling in his hole and land also on the first vault space..

This makes the deck more dangerous and it works !

JCHendee said:

Oke, i have never heard of that tale.. ( but it sounds interesting..

I wonder what for beings the old ones of the deep are..

How can gorgons be born if bloods drops on the shore..( ( let me quess..) it's one of the older tales, so they are born as a human right?

JCHendee said:

haha yeah.

But being turn into stone because they look to medusa, makes the most sense me.

But it's nice to know how others think why you are turned into stone haha.

yeah it's very gruesome, but i like it .

JCHendee said:

But the original myths can't be forgotten right?

It's just that someone (Ovid) made his own idea's how he see those beings, and created his own myth world..

As long as we know this, then nothing is wrong with it right?

"I use the dungeon doors in my deck, but i do not like them so much, because you can also walk to the dungeon, but if you want to reach the dungeon faster, then it is good to take a shortcut, but i like traps more.."

Yeah, I see what you mean. Maybe just include 1 Door per 104 Adventure cards to increase access points.

"What do you mean with back- door..."

Sorry... I just meant the Dungeon Door card(s) would be like back doors vs going through the Ruines.

"I have also change the Burrow Wurm a little.. ( if you lose the combat, than you are falling in his hole and land also on the first vault space.."

Hmmm... a friend has our groups dungeon expansion, so I'm not real familiar with the cards (we didn't dislike the dungeon, but it also didn't enthuse us a lot as it stands). What's the original effect of losing to the B.W.? Either way, you're option adds another alternative way to end up there, just like I was talking about. More ways to end up in the expansion "realms" is always fun, so long as they don't get to be too many... but all different.

{IE. Blood Drops} "Oke, i have never heard of that tale.. ( but it sounds interesting. I wonder what for beings the old ones of the deep are. How can gorgons be born if bloods drops on the shore..( ( let me quess..) it's one of the older tales, so they are born as a human right?"

Partly right... they were born with the terrifying appearance of the Medusa/Gorgon we think of today, snakes (or tentacles) and all, but with bodies akin to humanoid... you know, half land creature of Man, half old one of the Outer Deep. And overall, who knows where some of those old notions came from. But the whole "drops of blood" thing goes all the way back into the most ancient of mythos when divine, ethereal, or otherworldly creatures battled and killed each other off. Blood from them became many things, including continents in some cases. It's a very, very ancient theme in world mythology. Probably symbolic of decendancy from the line/hertiage of gods made manifested in a mortal state within the mortal world. It's even still with us... you know, the blood Christ, right? Of course that was stolen from Zoroastrianism (still a living ideology even today, and the first monotheistic religion in history), and its central matyr, Zoroaster.

"But being turn into stone because they look to medusa, makes the most sense me."

Yeah, for most people it does, and ain't nothing wrong with it. Though some classical studies scholars have theorized that in translating certain ancient Greek terms, somewhere along the way the term for being "petrified" as in terrified to a state of immobility was taken a little to literally... or just fantastically for the sake of magical myths.

"It's just that someone (Ovid) made his own idea's how he see those beings, and created his own myth world... As long as we know this, then nothing is wrong with it right?"

Of course not... so long as the rewrites aren't passed off as the original... like Ovid tried to do. And then there's the whole watering down process of re-write upon re-write... until what we're left with is so superficial we don't know why it is the way it is, and why it can and does do what it does. That's boring... to me at least. Give me a real Gorgon (at least in game terms) and let some stupid adventurer have to face that! And at least keep her in the proper context. Gorgons/Medusa does not live in the mountains.

Oh, and in some later films she was even mixed up with a Naga, a whole different creature from a whole different mythos.

Chow for now... I just switched over to a Mac and am trying to get my bootcamped Windows installation finished so I can keep working and writing on a new computer without having to (1) use Vista, or (2) lose time learning the Mac ways in the middle of proofing another book.

I can not wait for yet another fun and exciting expansion for an excellent game. FFG has done an amazing job with this game and I play it more than more original. Fast, fun, and streamlined.... Excellent product keep it up guys

JCHendee said:

If you lose from the burrow wurm, then you fall through his holl and you land on the dungeon entrance..

Almost the same as the 4th edition trapdoor..

JCHendee said:

But i am still wondering how the gorgons came to earth.. ( has athena use that blood and inject it in her body, so she gave birth to three gorgons?

JCHendee said:

Where must she other live in the talisman world?

---------------

I will wait until you have time again, to hear more about the myth's

My Xp install on the Mac is starting to behave a little better, so....

{Original B.W.} "If you lose from the burrow wurm, then you fall through his holl and you land on the dungeon entrance.. Almost the same as the 4th edition trapdoor."

How strange... so if wanted to get to the Dungeon quick, then you'd hope to lose when you meet it.

{Athena & Drops of Blood} "But i am still wondering how the gorgons came to earth.. ( has athena use that blood and inject it in her body, so she gave birth to three gorgons?"

Nope... the drops of blood from the Old One of the deep (a divine being) struck the earth and from that soil sprouted the Gorgons. Keep in mind that most myths like this don't explain much... because its the blood of an old "god" per se... and therefor has some kind of creative power unto itself. There are even myths of Athena and others having slain some otherworldly monster, and drops of blood from her spear formed some island chain (I forget which one).

{Gorgons/Medusa does not live in the mountains.} "Where must she other live in the talisman world?"

That's a bit of problem, since she was (sometimes, some-myths) a temple gaurdian... and sometime mate of Poseidon. Most greek temples were not built in mountains, and to be the mate of a major sea god, that means by the sea. But Talisman doesn't have any sea or ocean realm (yet?).

So the closest thing would be maybe the Forest expansion, since that main space is on the edge of the main board versus the unknown beyond the edge of the board. There had been a number of fan mad expansion (with and without board) that see the area around the main board (sans other expansion boards) as an ocean for seafaring even.

Perhaps on a Forest square with a lost Temple (a variation of the main board's temple), or as a Stranger/Place type card, where the adventurer must get past her (via Craft) to enter the sacred place. Of course I'm just talking off the cuff here, and most of this notion might be too much trouble to implement in Talisman. But I'd definitely stick her in the Forest and not the Mountains. Just my perspective, that's all.

JCHendee said:

yeah, ridiculous is it..

Nothing dangerous at all !

JCHendee said:

So the gorgons where born as soon as the blood from the Old One of the deep hits the ground..

Both three where gruesome gorgons..

mmm oke..

I like the original story more,,,

Who are actually the parents of medusa...) ( i do not remember) i was just thinking about it..)

Finding the pieces of that original story are really hard. Even the other major author of the era, Homer, didn't agree with Ovid nor the older tales. The Greeks and Romans made a real mess with all of their fanciful tales. You might take a look at the Wikipedia entry on the Gorgon (rather than Medusa) and you'll see a bit of what I mean. You can also find reference to the particular temple that was guarded by Medusa... on an island! And you'll note that mentions of the Gorgons early form just sight a hideous appearance (no mention of the snake hair, but rather a snake belt... or probably more likely a snake girdle).

Don't take all you read therein as the be all and end all. It's just and overview, and not a complete one at all. You'll find another notation on the whole "drops of blood" thing for where "the" Pegasus came from. So as you'll see, blood is always a metaphor for divine creation by happenstance or violence.

Adding something to this topic.

What do you all like to see in the mountains?

I am thinking about bridges that connect to some mountains, or rivers before you climb the mountains with some trees etc

Something that gives you the feeling that you are traveling far away

Maybe that they can add a cave too, with a extra path to walk..( that leads to a beach...)

Now that the Frostmarch is released, we get a handful of cards from the Mountain expansion(third edition)

But wich retro cards are left for Mountains then?

Here they are:

Events : Cliff, Hidden Chasm, Snow storm,Tumbling Boulder, Volcano

Enemies:

Strength: Snow Wolf, Chaos Dwarf, Mt Lion, Orcs, Woolly Mammoth, Wyvern, Ice Dragon

Craft: Earth Elemental

Strangers: Dwarf Runemaster, Prospector

Followers: Dwarf Mercenary, Guide( not the same guide from mainboard) Merchant

Objects: Dawnstone,Diamond, Emerald, Gold coins, Golden Guineas, Potion of Flight, Ring of Protection, Ruby, Scroll, Talisman,

Places: Landslide

If we get the Mountains,( i hope so) this are the cards that we don't have yet.

5 Mountain adventure cards( Medusa, Yetti, Griffon, Howl of the Wendigo, and Ice Queen palace, are included with the Frostmarch expansion.

It looks like all this talk of Greek legends and myth would go well in a sea/chain of island expansion. Aquire a ship some how and have a dedicated deck of cards like the dungeon has. This put the Gorgons, Minotaur, Harpies and everyone else in their proper home. The harpies can come in three of each alignment and if you have the same alignment then they will take you any place in the outer region. If not each has a different set of options that they do to you.

Mountains speak to me more of dragons, giants, dwarves, trolls and even Ice Queens and Dragon Kings. There is a lot of potential to use those legends to make a very unique and interesting place to visit.

Forests would be filled with Fairies, Elves Gnomes and other hazerdous flora and fauna.

I guess that I am indicateing that I like some theme in my games. The main Talisman board is great generic fantasy, filled with our favorite tropes. My hope is the montains (if made) and others go heavily into themes so theye give some much needed variety to the game.

Some unique movement rules would be nice. The islands would use a semi-random roll, 2d6 and go to that spot, doubles is something special.

Mountainds gives movement bonuses to Strong characters.

Forest gives the movenment advantage to Crafty characters.

Just to mix up the mechanics a bit to keep it interesting.

In third edition, Harpies was a card for the mainboard, that comes with the Mountains

You may attempt to fend them off, by rolling under your strength on two dice, or they drop you in the Lost City, deep in the Mountains !

The Gladiator is fighting with the Harpies !

I like a lot of your notions, Feldirk, though I doubt we'll ever see a sea expansion from FFG. Much as many fans have envisioned such beyond the main board, it has never been an actual notion approach by the games varied companies. And for the size of all the boards, a sea around the main board would mean pushing other expansion boards even further outward in layout. I can't imagine the size of table needed for all of that.

The movement mechanics you mention for the Forest and Mountains are interesting, but there would be a problem. Unless those two were released at the same time or in the same box, too many characters would have an advantage for a while that wasn't matched in any way by others. Imagine that mechanic for the Forest, and then having to wait a year until (hopefully) the Mountains were released.