Help me ppl help me please, FFG made my favourite ship too good.

Now everybody takes it. I am so sad! Come and join my club to soothe me!

I feel like that sometimes too. Either your favorite ship isn't strong enough or everybody is using it and you no longer get to show off your personal taste because it's just the ship everyone is using.

There is always a Fel's Wrath for such ppl.

There is a decision: which system. You get five different options, significantly more than the A-wing got (Chaardan Refit or 5pt Proton Rockets). The only one that's closed off is no system at all. They could have gone with several TIE/xn titles all granting a different free buff but they went with x1 giving a free system: it's a much more elegant solution that gives you more options.

And so this specific complaint really comes down to lore. In the lore of the setting, the TIE Advanced was good, but not good enough to justify it's vastly higher cost, so it was not mass produced. Instead, the TIE Interceptor grew out of the design experiments and became the production fighter.

I personally am not content to have an entire ship remain as a meta-joke.

That being said, we're talking mass production on a galactic scale here. Coming across twelve TIE advanceds (possible in Epic) isn't a lore fail because relative to the galaxy that's still a tiny amount. The Empire did have squadrons of TIE advanceds, just not billions of them. They're definitely more common than phantoms or defenders.

I flew Vader and Alozen last night in a 4 player, 100pt. each game last night (200 per side).

Me: Vader, Alozen, and Jendon.

Teammate: Kenkirk and Vessery.

Opponent 1: Luke, Hobbie, and Garven

Opponent 2: Jake Farrell, 2x Green Squadron, 1x Z-95.

I had a ton of fun. The ship is still subject to two crappy dice and I had a hard time landing a solid hit on the A-wings, but was able to have a lot of success against the X-wings. Obviously neither list is optimized or within the "normal" 100pt. category, but the ship performed good, and was great at knife-fighting, though I missed having a 1-turn maneuver. I might be tempted to throw on Daredevil next time...

Nothing wrong with it being "pigeonholed" into a specific set of upgrades, title and ATC. The ship was universally agreed upon as broken, and this is the fix. If you don't use the fix, then aren't you playing with a broken ship again? Why should you ever play without it? You shouldn't. It's the fix, and it kicks ass.

-Cal

Now, instead, some things will have to be ridiculously overpriced for other ships just because the TIE Advanced/x1 gets anything less for free.

Uh, no it doesn't? The TIE advanced gets free system upgrades because it's 4 point overpriced without the title. If you equip a new system upgrade to it it's still four points overpriced.

I had a ton of fun. The ship is still subject to two crappy dice and I had a hard time landing a solid hit on the A-wings, but was able to have a lot of success against the X-wings. Obviously neither list is optimized or within the "normal" 100pt. category, but the ship performed good, and was great at knife-fighting, though I missed having a 1-turn maneuver. I might be tempted to throw on Daredevil next time...

-Cal

This part seems odd. it's kind of....not. The ATC means it has 2 dice PLUS an auto crit. So really 3 dice, one of which has crits on all 8 faces.

It actually has better firepower average than a 3 dice ship. I believe that with predator, Vaders avaerage damage is up in Phantom territory.

It probably has to do with the turns where you had to use the TL action. Dice withouth dice modification are kind of iffy, and while you add a crit result, you are likely to get 2 hits, which 3 agility dice ships with actions are unlikely to get hit Extropia.

It doesn't have better firepower than a 3 dice ship, the only cases it does, is when you are able to get a focus action (vader or already TL'ed), and a bit better if you have predator.

It's comes down to the action you are using.

ATC Advanceds + Action spent that turn

2 Dice with only TL : 2 average hits

2 Dice with TL and Focus : 2.5 average hits

2 dice with TL and predator : 2.4 average hits

2 Dice with TL and Focus and Predator (Vader lolol) : 2.81 average hits

3 dice ship

3 dice with focus : 2.25 average hits

3 dice with focus + predator : 2.65 average hits

There is a crit in there sure, but that's situational, and completely irrelevant when it comes down to the Agility / Attack dice interaction that Caliber is speaking of with the A-wing scenario. So you can see they are close, but 3 dice are better on comparable cases, except if you already have the TL on that ship from other turns, or you are able to do pump out two actions.

True, i was assuming that they would already have a TL since he was using Alozen and Vader. Bit of a bad assumption on my part, but in fairness....with those two, you always should!

with those two, you always should!

Wes with VI would ruin their day by stripping off the TL on one of them. Also this will make Expert Handling a bit more useful, a BR and cost Vader an extra dice. It will also make Cpt Kagi more useful.

I understand the OP's point, the issue is that there's no option but to take the X1 title, not really. The issue to him is that the X1 title is a no brainer and more titles would of created more options.

I think this is pretty much nonsense. There's nothing wrong or unpolished about making a title an autoinclude, because even if there are no other options there's a lot of options opened up by taking the title.

Giving the Tie Advanced cannons or bombs is not really a good option, because then you're cutting into the realm of the Defender or Bomber, it already has a modification slot, so the system upgrade was the only option.

So the only thing other titles would offer would be a reduction in cost, which is just not that interesting.

I don't expect there will be a lot of members in your club. The Tie Advanced has been way overpriced and behind the current meta for some time now. This seems to be a generally accepted fact, and it's certainly why you don't see competitive builds with a Tie Advanced (even Darth, who is the closest to viable among all the TA pilots). It is far less viable for the cost than the A-Wing, and needed a bigger fix.

I love the fix. I'll be willing to run a couple TAs in squadrons again, and consider more options than just Vader. The Empire needs another viable ship option for tournament builds, and FFG is giving us this with this upgrade, at least on paper. I think it's brilliant.

more titles would of created more options.

Four titles (four TIE advanced fixes is much more than we could reasonably expect) would still give us fewer options than TIE/x1 does.

Four titles (four TIE advanced fixes is much more than we could reasonably expect) would still give us fewer options than TIE/x1 does.

Depends on what the title does. In theory the current x1 title, plus a x2 title that does something else, and a x3 that does yet something else, would create more. But that's a bit like saying having 4 $20 bills is better than having 1.

The problem is as I mentioned above, what would you make these other titles? Adding a cannon slot cuts into the Defender, adding a modification slot that discounts things wouldn't of helped enough. Maarek with a free Engine Upgrade is still only throwing 2 dice damage. Adding a bomb slot wouldn't help, and would be completely contrary to the lore (which the OP said is an issue.)

Having a x2 where the cost of the advanced is reduced by 3 points would help, but is very boring and wouldn't help enough IMO.

So while more titles might make more options, I'm not sure what other titles they could offer that would be a real option without taking a bite out of something else.

Giving someone a choice between $20 and a slap in the face is not really giving someone more options... Giving someone a choice between $20 and $5 is also not really giving them more options.

So the idea that more titles = more options is flawed on it's face, without additional titles that are both equally good, and don't cause harm to something else, there are really no additional options.

Edit: Also the very idea that FFG didn't try a number of other possible options is naive at best, because they did, most likely they tried a ton of stuff including things suggested here and discarded them.

I had a ton of fun. The ship is still subject to two crappy dice and I had a hard time landing a solid hit on the A-wings, but was able to have a lot of success against the X-wings. Obviously neither list is optimized or within the "normal" 100pt. category, but the ship performed good, and was great at knife-fighting, though I missed having a 1-turn maneuver. I might be tempted to throw on Daredevil next time...

-Cal

This part seems odd. it's kind of....not. The ATC means it has 2 dice PLUS an auto crit. So really 3 dice, one of which has crits on all 8 faces.

It actually has better firepower average than a 3 dice ship. I believe that with predator, Vaders avaerage damage is up in Phantom territory.

-Cal

If this has already been mentioned, apologies...i didn't read all 5 pages of the thread.

On Vader's pilot card his ship is listed as the X1 where the other pilots are not. So are we to believe then that the other pilots are now flying Vader's TIE? And if so, why didn't Vader have these upgrades from the beginning?

Knowing Vader's temper, he's probably force-choking some peeps right about now for having to wait 2 years to get his ship working correctly...

(Hi. I'm back.)

The ATC being a +1 cost adjustment is a good example. I have other issues with the application of that card (IMHO, making it "Imperial Only" instead of "Advanced Only" would have been sufficient, but whatever).

ObiWonka's idea of the offset being '-2' instead of '-4' accomplishes much the same - as with the current solution, the cost of the base fighter is not changed. And, heck, you do get the Advanced Scopes and FCS for 'free' with that solution, still. Yet Accuracy Corrector and Advanced Sensors become 1-point upgrades, instead of 'free' (as they are now) and Sensor Jammer is 2 points (instead of also being 'free', as it is now). You now have a compelling reason to not take the upgrade - to make a choice - you don't need/want the FCS or scopes, and don't want to pay even the minimal fee for the other options. A decision is made!

You're attacking the problem from the wrong direction. The right question to be asking here is based on playtesting and as much mathwing as possible, how much a Tempest Squadron Pilot + [your favorite system upgrade here] ought to cost. There's enough wiggle room in there to justify a range of answers, and I don't think a -2 discount is necessarily a bad choice--but by the same token -4 seems like it could be reasonable.

Ah, here, see, there is a bit of a misconception. True, people rarely take the Advanced in standard tournaments. But that doesn't mean every pilot is not fair for its price.

Vader works GREAT if you do as little as extend the tournament time to 90 minutes, instead of 75. The problem with the Advanced is that it's very survivable, but doesn't hit hard...which, when you are pressed for time to kill things, he performs very poorly.

Any fix that treats the TIE Advanced as completely valueless for its price, just because it doesn't work very well in the standard tournament format - which is only one part of the game - should be immediately looked at as suspicious from the start.

The current fix doesn't treat the TIE Advanced as valueless at all; it treats the TIE Advanced as overpriced by exactly 4 points.

As the game progresses older ships will become outdated

I mean it can't really be helped.

It absolutely can be helped.

It actually has better firepower average than a 3 dice ship. I believe that with predator, Vaders avaerage damage is up in Phantom territory.

(People seem to be underestimating how awkward the Advanced dial is, and how that restricts your action choices. The requirement to have a TL to activate ATC isn't actually trivial at all.)

(Hi. I'm back.)

Welcome back

Meh, get some time in with the Advanced and/or Defender, and the dial doesn't become that awkward.

Meh, get some time in with the Advanced and/or Defender, and the dial doesn't become that awkward.

I respect your opinion, but this absolutely hasn't been my experience. The lack of a 1-turn or 1-straight really hurts it in a knife fight, the green is distributed oddly and makes it relatively tough to change direction under stress, and (in comparison to the other ways you could spend 21-22 points on a fighter in an Imperial list) the single K-turn option is pretty limiting as well.

It's not a bad dial, exactly, but it's definitely awkward for me, and experience with both it and the Defender haven't made it better.

For everything awesome FFG does, there is always someone unhappy about it.

Ingrates. I'm just happy there is a fix. A darn good one at that.

Meh, get some time in with the Advanced and/or Defender, and the dial doesn't become that awkward.

I respect your opinion, but this absolutely hasn't been my experience. The lack of a 1-turn or 1-straight really hurts it in a knife fight, the green is distributed oddly and makes it relatively tough to change direction under stress, and (in comparison to the other ways you could spend 21-22 points on a fighter in an Imperial list) the single K-turn option is pretty limiting as well.

It's not a bad dial, exactly, but it's definitely awkward for me, and experience with both it and the Defender haven't made it better.

I tend to agree. Its not like the b-wing dial, which frequently makes me exclaim "why can't you do ANYTHING?!" but its not fantastic either. It functions, and is probably fine, but it is definitely more towards drawback territory, rather then asset, like an A-Wing or Interceptors dial is.

Meh, get some time in with the Advanced and/or Defender, and the dial doesn't become that awkward.

I respect your opinion, but this absolutely hasn't been my experience. The lack of a 1-turn or 1-straight really hurts it in a knife fight, the green is distributed oddly and makes it relatively tough to change direction under stress, and (in comparison to the other ways you could spend 21-22 points on a fighter in an Imperial list) the single K-turn option is pretty limiting as well.

It's not a bad dial, exactly, but it's definitely awkward for me, and experience with both it and the Defender haven't made it better.

That's perfectly fine. The "fish tail" isn't for everyone. Some ships and their dials just aren't meant for some people.

True, a Vader with ATC can still be blocked, meaning he will lose his 2 actions, meaning he can't TL, meaning he can't use ATC.

So if you feel you lose actions too often because of the miserable dial, just use AC instead.

2 sure hits - even better then TL + Focus. And nothing your opponent can do against this.

So Vader got stress? This does not concern him now - he'll kill you anyway