The key thing from everything you said is "homebrew" and if you're one of the supposedly hundreds or thousands of casual players playing on the kitchen table with "hombrew" scenarios than you probably already have your "homebrew" fix for the advanced anyway. This fix was for the players that stick to the game and play it with cards as printed by FFG which again is largely the 100pt torny players.

The designers seem to share a lot of my beliefs on the game. I like the tournament game. I tend to discuss it a lot. I don't play outside of the 100 pt format too much. Does that make them catering to the tournament crowd?

EDIT: Everything in this thread is to say we're excited to be able to play a more competitive TIE Advanced, too. The fix just could've been better designed. That's all.

Here's the thing I don't understand.

If the desire is to make a poor ship more attractive, they've done that. And they've done it well by adding a new type of upgrade to the ship and given a discount on current and future upgrades to that slot.

I can't conceive of a fix that makes the base ship better without applying the fix AND makes the fix balanced to that and the rest of the game.

It sounds like you want a reason to *not* take the title. You can already do that now. So if you're running Darth Vader currently, you can still run him without the title. Remember, you're a casual player, so allegedly you don't care about balance or rules in general**.

** This is, of course, utter horse droppings. As a casual player, I can tell you the fastest way game can lose me is by making objectively poor unit choices and hand waving it as fluff or lore. If you aren't giving me a game to play, if you're giving me a bunch of units that will lose 99% of the time no matter what I do, I'll just go read a book. I have the same amount of control.

1. So you mean like ATC? Increases cost by one, gives a really good benefit? That seems to fit your argument to a T right there.

Quite so! The ATC being a +1 cost adjustment is a good example. I have other issues with the application of that card (IMHO, making it "Imperial Only" instead of "Advanced Only" would have been sufficient, but whatever).

The thing is the inclusion of so many other systems for free, making the upgrade a no-brainer, combined with no cost to it.

ObiWanka's idea of the offset being '-2' instead of '-4' accomplishes much the same - as with the current solution, the cost of the base fighter is not changed. And, heck, you do get the Advanced Scopes and FCS for 'free' with that solution, still. Yet Accuracy Corrector and Advanced Sensors become 1-point upgrades, instead of 'free' (as they are now) and Sensor Jammer is 2 points (instead of also being 'free', as it is now). You now have a compelling reason to not take the upgrade - to make a choice - you don't need/want the FCS or scopes, and don't want to pay even the minimal fee for the other options. A decision is made!

But why would you choose to not take the upgrade, when NOBODY TAKES THE ADVANCED NOW.

...

Sooooooo how's your Advanced lists working out for you right now? There is no choice here. The Advanced simply doesn't work. It HAS to have a fix.

Ah, here, see, there is a bit of a misconception. True, people rarely take the Advanced in standard tournaments. But that doesn't mean every pilot is not fair for its price. Vader works GREAT if you do as little as extend the tournament time to 90 minutes, instead of 75. The problem with the Advanced is that it's very survivable, but doesn't hit hard...which, when you are pressed for time to kill things, he performs very poorly. Maarak Stele, on the other hand, is really quite the beast in Epic format - being able to choose a crit from 3 on the large ships (who have some pretty rough crits, and a fairly small deck) is BRUTAL. He fits well worth his cost in those games.

(The generics, I'll grant, are a pretty tough sell. I can't see people taking them very often. But original-Maarak and original-Vader absolutely have their place, so the wholesale replacement of them with x1-Maarak and x1-Vader is unfortunate, IMHO.)

Why should the Advanced get multiple titles at once when no other ship but the Firespray has multiple titles announced? What ideas do you have for other titles?

Well, the Firespray, Rebel Transport, Rebel Corvette, and Imperial Raider already have multiple titles. Given the likely longevity of the game, I'd be more than a bit surprised if other ships did not get more titles.

As to 'other ideas' - sticking with a theme makes sense. Maybe change a set to:

"TIE Advanced x1: cost 0, adds [system] slot. Any equipped [system] upgrade costs 2 points less."

"TIE Advanced x2: cost 0, adds [cannon] slot. Any equipped [cannon] upgrade costs 2 points less."

"TIE Advanced x3: cost 0, adds [bomb] slot. Any equipped [bomb] upgrade costs 1 points less."

...you've now got multiple choices, so it's not a no-brainer to just ALWAYS take the 'x1' title. And none of the titles get you everything you'd be able to use for free, so you may well choose not to take any of them.

Except that the point cost issues has been done to death, and the math suggests that its about 4 pts over. You're calling for a 2 pt decrease, so lets split the difference. 3 pts. Does a 3 pt cheaper Advanced really do anything for anybody? Do you REALLY think we'll see it become a viable part of anybody's lists?

So you don't think standard tournaments should be the benchmark for how we determine how "good" a ship is? Then what? We all just use our opinions? Thats inane. You have to have some sort of metric to determine the quality of a ship. I'll accept your points with Vader, simply because he has a PS 9 ability, so good that it almost outweighs the drawbacks of the ship he's on. Maarek? Really? He's long been in the running for worse ship in the game, usually beat out only by Fel's Wrath. Its nice when his ability goes off, but even in Epic you can't count on it. And for his points you can put something into your list that would probably give you a lot more mileage.

... you're using the Epics, who don't have any different pilot cards, so they got multiple titles, as your counterpoint? That's just... c'mon man, you're not even trying there. And the Slave-1 Title is practically useless. I think i've seen it once, in an Epic game where my opponent and i just slapped together our lists in 15 minutes, and he just kitted Boba Fett out with every upgrade he could.

And as far as "fixes" go, all of these are bandaids. There is no "perfect" fix, without going back and reworking the ship itself. Which FFG isn't going to do. So we get a bandaid.

star wars bandaid.

The way you 'fix an overcosted ship without having a (massive) discount on upgrades with no downside' is addressed in several prior posts.

I'm not sure you caught it in the previous posts, as that was what we've been talking about, I'll do a tl;dr recap of some of the options:

• Provide other titles that do other things, so you have at least an 'opportunity cost' in the taking the x1 title.
• Add some other perk that justifies the lack of a discount. Add 2 system slots with a -2 discount to all systems purchase, for example.
• etc

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the fix won't "work" - it certainly fixes the TIE Advanced, giving it interesting new choices and bringing its cost in line with what it should be.

But it's also a hack solution - there is never any reason NOT to take the "x1" title, right now. IMHO, the point of this thread, is that it would have been better to implement a fix to get us to the same place but leaving important choices to be made, still. The Chardaan Refit, BTL-A4 title, and autothrusters all provide good counter-points as to 'how to make something plainly better, but still make it a choice'.

Not getting to choose or you don't like something that is considered an auto include

So are you going to make posts about

Sontir Fel with push the limit?

Or what about Falcons and the falcon title.

Isn't that an auto include?

3p0 basically in most lists these days is an auto include.

Why is it people cannot just be happy with what ffg has done.

There is a good reason many of us are not game designers.

Seems like lately there are a lot of people around here who seem to think they can do a better job than the ffg designers

The way you 'fix an overcosted ship without having a (massive) discount on upgrades with no downside' is addressed in several prior posts.

I'm not sure you caught it in the previous posts, as that was what we've been talking about, I'll do a tl;dr recap of some of the options:

• Provide other titles that do other things, so you have at least an 'opportunity cost' in the taking the x1 title.
• Add some other perk that justifies the lack of a discount. Add 2 system slots with a -2 discount to all systems purchase, for example.
• etc

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the fix won't "work" - it certainly fixes the TIE Advanced, giving it interesting new choices and bringing its cost in line with what it should be.

But it's also a hack solution - there is never any reason NOT to take the "x1" title, right now. IMHO, the point of this thread, is that it would have been better to implement a fix to get us to the same place but leaving important choices to be made, still. The Chardaan Refit, BTL-A4 title, and autothrusters all provide good counter-points as to 'how to make something plainly better, but still make it a choice'.

So it seems your complaining about choice.

Not getting to choose or you don't like something that is considered an auto include

So are you going to make posts about

Sontir Fel with push the limit?

Or what about Falcons and the falcon title.

Isn't that an auto include?

3p0 basically in most lists these days is an auto include.

Why is it people cannot just be happy with what ffg has done.

There is a good reason many of us are not game designers.

Seems like lately there are a lot of people around here who seem to think they can do a better job than the ffg designers

Man, i remember getting into that cluster**** with z0m4d over A-wing fixes a month or so ago, and now with all this recent pointless crap im starting to think he was right the whole time.

What was he right about

What was he right about

That us talking about and proposing fixes is going entirely too far. In the last two weeks i've seen "Fixes" for Defenders, Interceptors, 4-5 threads about X-wings, and i think this is what? The 3rd thread complaining about the Tie Advanced now right after the Raider reveal? Good grief.

Whatever potential good we might get out of these discussions seems to be getting drowned by frivolous, biased, "my favorite ship(s) isn't good enough" crappola.

Man, i remember getting into that cluster**** with z0m4d over A-wing fixes a month or so ago, and now with all this recent pointless crap im starting to think he was right the whole time.

I'm sorry, I missed that. Could you post it again, please?

Pity A-Wings didn't see such nice upgrades from Rebel Aces. Or HWK-290s from Scum and Villany. Sure the scum HWKs are good but that doesn't do anything to help the rebel ones.

I can agree with that.

I think this game is great the way it is

I think if something really feels op, then maybe it's not really op, but that the player using it is maybe more skilled with what they are using vs their opponent and what they are using

As the game progresses older ships will become outdated

I mean it can't really be helped.

But as time goes on i think ffg has done extremely well in updating fixes and new upgrades to make ships that become obsolete new again.

First we got a interceptor fix

Then a xwing upgrade with transport

Then awing fix, and bwing update

Now we will be getting the long awaited advanced fix.

The ywing has some new editions coming out.

After that we will likely see a bomber fix, and by then more new ships will be out and maybe we will get another xwing update.

It can't happen over night.

Be happy ffg doesn't forget about their older ships and be happy that what they have been doing imo is not broken, and is keeping this game alive.

I forsee a long and beautiful future for this game

Also keep in mind releasing néw upgrades and fixing old ship as the game goes forward also keeps them making new models and plastic Crack for us to buy, which makes them money.

They are happy, and we are happy. ( well the majority is happy. Obviously can't please everyone sad to say)

Pity A-Wings didn't see such nice upgrades from Rebel Aces. Or HWK-290s from Scum and Villany. Sure the scum HWKs are good but that doesn't do anything to help the rebel ones.

It's kind of funny people mentioning HWKs as being under powered. 40+ pt HWKs seemed to do fine at Worlds.

That is where skill comes in

That is where skill comes in

A skill barrier does not justify fixes. Sure, I am always happy to see stuff that works well with the HWKs (see Rebel Aces), but I think the ship is in a really good spot.

Look, what the fix does is return to viability the advanced. The other thing it does is find for it a niche in the imperial order of battle. It has gone from being a overpriced red headed step child to an interesting middle ground between a tie fighter and a tie defender. It has fair to good maneuverability, good tankiness, and now it possess some useful if unusual teeth.

A squad of 4 tempests like this would be hard to kill and would slowly whittle down foes from focused fire, while the onetime most useless pilot in the game suddenly becomes a deadly assassin with the ability to deal a nigh-instant kill to most ships.

But just because the advanced is good does not mean it supersedes all builds. Would you rather have echo or vader? Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Personally I'd pick Echo, just more versatile, but the point is this fix: 1 made the tie advanced viable again, and 2 gave them an actual niche in gameplay.

I'm kind of curious how many would take the new Advanced pilots without the fix. Alozen is interesting, but needs Engine Upgrade (but so does Vader).

All they would've had to do was make sure Advanced Targeting computer was appropriately priced relative to the above. Then they have a ton more space for future Systems upgrades. Now, instead, some things will have to be ridiculously overpriced for other ships just because the TIE Advanced/x1 gets anything less for free.

Ah yes, the gamespace thing again. Some folks actually refuse to see this as issue at all totally ignoring the fact that this applies to our popular fat YT's when it comes to new crew cards, turrets and ship mods (ok ship mods not so much anymore).

I'm glad to see the other side of the toast finally get some butter on it.

Going back a bit, this response is to the OP.

To answer your points:

1. Making a whole list of the one ship viable isn't an issue, it is if it becomes a no-brainer that it adds to power creep. In this instance that is not the case. They made a bad ship good without diminishing the roles of any other ships on its side significantly.

2. Yes the title is an auto-include, but that's kind of the point of a fix. It wouldn't be much of a fix if it wasn't definitely worth taking.

Pity A-Wings didn't see such nice upgrades from Rebel Aces. Or HWK-290s from Scum and Villany. Sure the scum HWKs are good but that doesn't do anything to help the rebel ones.

It's kind of funny people mentioning HWKs as being under powered. 40+ pt HWKs seemed to do fine at Worlds.

yeah? What do people put on em?

All they would've had to do was make sure Advanced Targeting computer was appropriately priced relative to the above. Then they have a ton more space for future Systems upgrades. Now, instead, some things will have to be ridiculously overpriced for other ships just because the TIE Advanced/x1 gets anything less for free.

Ah yes, the gamespace thing again. Some folks actually refuse to see this as issue at all totally ignoring the fact that this applies to our popular fat YT's when it comes to new crew cards, turrets and ship mods (ok ship mods not so much anymore).

I'm glad to see the other side of the toast finally get some butter on it.

Well, Obiwonka still haven't understood that the -4 discount is relative to Tie advanced overprice, so it actually doesn't matter if it gets it "for free", because he is actually paying for it, since its base cost is much lower than the standard cost. Why? Because it is not a discount, but a fix to its price by adding value to the ship, instead of a direct reduction of its point cost.

What does that means ? That the pricing of the future sensors upgrades have not to take into account the Tie advanced fix. At all.

It was that well done.

1. So you mean like ATC? Increases cost by one, gives a really good benefit? That seems to fit your argument to a T right there.

Quite so! The ATC being a +1 cost adjustment is a good example. I have other issues with the application of that card (IMHO, making it "Imperial Only" instead of "Advanced Only" would have been sufficient, but whatever).

The thing is the inclusion of so many other systems for free, making the upgrade a no-brainer, combined with no cost to it.

ObiWanka's idea of the offset being '-2' instead of '-4' accomplishes much the same - as with the current solution, the cost of the base fighter is not changed. And, heck, you do get the Advanced Scopes and FCS for 'free' with that solution, still. Yet Accuracy Corrector and Advanced Sensors become 1-point upgrades, instead of 'free' (as they are now) and Sensor Jammer is 2 points (instead of also being 'free', as it is now). You now have a compelling reason to not take the upgrade - to make a choice - you don't need/want the FCS or scopes, and don't want to pay even the minimal fee for the other options. A decision is made!

But why would you choose to not take the upgrade, when NOBODY TAKES THE ADVANCED NOW.

...Sooooooo how's your Advanced lists working out for you right now? There is no choice here. The Advanced simply doesn't work. It HAS to have a fix.

Ah, here, see, there is a bit of a misconception. True, people rarely take the Advanced in standard tournaments. But that doesn't mean every pilot is not fair for its price. Vader works GREAT if you do as little as extend the tournament time to 90 minutes, instead of 75. The problem with the Advanced is that it's very survivable, but doesn't hit hard...which, when you are pressed for time to kill things, he performs very poorly. Maarak Stele, on the other hand, is really quite the beast in Epic format - being able to choose a crit from 3 on the large ships (who have some pretty rough crits, and a fairly small deck) is BRUTAL. He fits well worth his cost in those games.

(The generics, I'll grant, are a pretty tough sell. I can't see people taking them very often. But original-Maarak and original-Vader absolutely have their place, so the wholesale replacement of them with x1-Maarak and x1-Vader is unfortunate, IMHO.)

Why should the Advanced get multiple titles at once when no other ship but the Firespray has multiple titles announced? What ideas do you have for other titles?

Well, the Firespray, Rebel Transport, Rebel Corvette, and Imperial Raider already have multiple titles. Given the likely longevity of the game, I'd be more than a bit surprised if other ships did not get more titles.

As to 'other ideas' - sticking with a theme makes sense. Maybe change a set to:

"TIE Advanced x1: cost 0, adds [system] slot. Any equipped [system] upgrade costs 2 points less."

"TIE Advanced x2: cost 0, adds [cannon] slot. Any equipped [cannon] upgrade costs 2 points less."

"TIE Advanced x3: cost 0, adds [bomb] slot. Any equipped [bomb] upgrade costs 1 points less."

...you've now got multiple choices, so it's not a no-brainer to just ALWAYS take the 'x1' title. And none of the titles get you everything you'd be able to use for free, so you may well choose not to take any of them.

As some might know i have advocated very strongly for an X-Wing buff lately, also as a reaction to the Advanced suddenly becoming a really competitive choice with the fix, and having not any advantage over the Advanced anymore. But i am absolutely amazed about the Advanced fix. I really like the approach and instead of still not being satisfied, i go on to the next ship in need and make my suggestions. Because now i know that FFG is listening for sure. And even if they don't pick any suggestion even close to what i said, i am pretty sure i will be very happy that they are trying to balance the game better no matter how they achieve it.

But i really think that the Advanced fix is extremely well done. And it gives exactly the 4 points discount that was pretty widely agreed to be necessary. It was not 2 nor 3 points overcosted, but 4. People told you so by their experience, Mathwing suggested it, FFG fixes it. And yet you go on ranting about 1 and 2 point discounts and how great the Advanced would be without fix if actually we would play other formats and if we would fly casual and if the world was not so cruel, and if we went backwards in time and nerfed this and that ship before it gets released... I know that's not exactly what you litterally said, but i just want to tell you... Just get over it and enjoy that something (very sensible) was finally done about the Advanced!

Edit: I do have one criticism! That the fix is sold along with the Raider. I think it's awesome on its own and would have bought it anyway, but i know there are people that are financially much worse off and they would probably have much preferred just an alternate art Advanced in a blister with the new pilots and cards, or a new Aces pack with 2 advanced (making room for another repaint) and the cards. I know the same was said about the GR75 with the X-Wing stuff, but it still holds true!

I like the Advanced Title and the options it presents. It means that hopefully we will move away from the large base 360 turrets that are plaguing the scene but I don't think it is overpowered.

As an auto-include? Sure, just like a majority of people won't fly an Interceptor (or Soontir Fel for a better example) without Push the Limit or Dash without a HLC (for now) or a named Phantom without ACD. It is what it is.

What I think we need to keep in mind here is that if people make the commitment to use the Advanced, and it is isn't something done lightly, then you don't leave yourself with much else. For example:

Vader - 29pts
Title
Advanced Targeting - 1pt
Engine Upgrade - 4pts
Outmanoeuvre - 3 pts
Total: 37 pts

He can still only take five hits at the most and you are once again in Firespray, Fel with Push the Limit, stealth Device and Autothrusters or even Phantom territory. So now you have more options but you NEED Vader to pull his weight, which means he is now going to get shot at. A lot.

For those that will be fielding the three Advanced with AC and three TIES swarm, good on you. Lets joust and see what is left standing.

Help me ppl help me please, FFG made my favourite ship too good.

Now everybody takes it. I am so sad! Come and join my club to soothe me!

Help me ppl help me please, FFG made my favourite ship too good.

Now everybody takes it. I am so sad! Come and join my club to soothe me!

I feel like that sometimes too. Either your favorite ship isn't strong enough or everybody is using it and you no longer get to show off your personal taste because it's just the ship everyone is using.