So, I'm bummed out about the TIE Advanced fix. There, I said it! Not that it didn't need the fix, no doubt it was pretty horribly overpriced for what you got, just that... the way it was done.

Not a fan!

Two major issues with it, IMHO

1. I sort of think FFG over-did it. It makes the TIE Advanced a bit...TOO competitive. Which would be fine if it was a 'unique' card, or something like that. But the solution, as issued, is not. So, now, 2x TIE Advanced in a list is going to be pretty common...a 3x TIE Advanced list even. Heck, 4x TIE Advanced will be perfectly viable.
   
   And so this specific complaint really comes down to lore. In the lore of the setting, the TIE Advanced was good, but not good enough to justify it's vastly higher cost, so it was not mass produced . Instead, the TIE Interceptor grew out of the design experiments and became the production fighter.
   
   So, IMHO, I wanted a TIE Advanced fix, yes, but one that made a single one of those fighters on the battlefield a compelling choice... not one that made FOUR of them in a list a valid option. Feels like a lore fail, I guess? It's a nitpick, I suppose, but one of the reasons many of us are so engaged with the game is FOR the setting, so something that seems to rub against it...
   
2. I dislike game elements that present no choice. That is, there is no reason to ever NOT take the 'TIE Advanced x1' title, and a free system upgrade of some kind. Darth Vader, on his own, costs 29 points. Darth Vader, with the ability to get a free target lock on anyone he shoots at... is 29 points. Darth Vader, with the ability to force an enemy to convert a 'hit' to an 'focus' when shooting at him... is 29 points. Darth Vader, that always lands 2 unmodifiable hits every time he fires... is 29 points. etc, et al. We lack even an "opportunity cost" for the title upgrade (as the A-Wing's Chardaan Refit has), as nothing else can possibly go IN that slot. It’s just flat-out always better to take it than not, with no conditions or reasons that you’d ever want to pass on it. There is no decision, here, just an automatic “oh, I’m bringing a TIE Advanced, better find my x1 title card for it”.
   
   If FFG is listening , this is the biggest gripe I have with the fix as shown. I suppose a way to address it (and kill both birds with one stone) would possibly be having more titles for the TIE Advanced that we haven’t seen – perhaps some that are unique. A unique ‘TIE Advanced x2’ that does something and another ‘TIE Advanced x3’ that does something else…at least then there would be some decision involved, even if there are no points spent for it, there would be an opportunity cost in choosing one title instead of another.

As it is, though…I mean, it works. It “fixes” the TIE Advanced, no doubt. I suppose it feels like it could have been done better, though. After all - even with the suggested workaround, above, a person who buys an Imperial Raider is going to have a materially better TIE Advanced at no point cost or opportunity cost vs someone who does not .

Obviously, I'm going to GET the Raider, myself - I'd be crazy not to, it's a gorgeous ship in its own right! That said...that was not how it worked with the A-Wing fix (Chardaan) or Y-Wing fix (BTL-A4) or TIE Interceptor fix (autothrusters) – in all cases, you did have to at least give something up from the base fighter (missiles or a 360 turret or other ship modifications, respectively) that meant what you had afterwards wasn’t strictly always better . SOMETIMES better, if you needed that configuration in a list, but not ALWAYS better. In contrast, the TIE Advanced fix, as presented, is simply a single thing that is ALWAYS better than the stock TIE Advanced. One card, no decisions needed, no cost, always better. That's... frustrating, IMHO .

will be interesting to fly 4 Blue "Bs" with advanced sensors against them..

Just because they effectively cost 0 points doesn't mean there is no decision involved. You can still only take 1 system upgrade per ship, if you choose advanced sensors, than you can't choose accuracy corrector, etc. I think you will still mostly just being seeing Vader added to lists with ATC and Engine Upgrade, just like the old days, when people just played Vader for his PS 9 and Swarm Tactics.

After thinking about it for a while, I like that they did this instead of just making a -2 Title. I think the TIE Advanced wasn't just struggling with being overcosted, I think it also was lacking a real niche in the game. The game, specifically the Empire, just has no use for a buff A-Wing with an X-Wing's dial. I think that even if generic Advances were given a 3 point discount, they still would see very little play just because they didn't feel a needed role. We're kind of seeing that with generic A-Wings, even with the discount, nobody's in the market for a medium points high defense low offense ship.

I think people should be able to play the lists they want, even if it sometimes doesn't match up with the "lore" (I really hate that word). Triple Firesprays and double Falcons is something that should not be possible in the movie universe, but they are much beloved lists by many players. I think the most TIE Advances we are going to see is 2 Tempests with Accuracy Correcter and Engine Upgrade, but I don't think we're going to see 4 TIE Advance squads dominating any time soon, there's too many weaknesses there.

The Advanced is also categorically worse then the A-Wing in my experience, it needed a bigger fix. You could still squeeze in a Greenie, or trick out Tycho and get some use out of him. The Advanced had only one possibly playable guy, and he was the most expensive, and sinking farther in to sub-par land every wave.

I also feel like while there isn't any choice in whether or not to take the title, the title itself provides a lot of flexibility to the ship, and presents it the ability to fill a number of roles.

Finally, I doubt they could have made a compelling fix that wasn't mandatory. If they had done something unique, it would just limit you to one of them, removing the option to field more then one.

As far as the mass produced, I'm betting hundreds, possibly thousands of the craft were produced for testing maneuvers. From what I remember part of the decision not to implement the craft was cost based, not just quality based. It wasn't until they were getting their tail kicked by the increasingly advanced Rebel craft that they started to produce elite fighters, and by then they had the designs for the Defender and the Phantom, no reason to mass produce the Advanced.

Yeah, that 'not mass produced' comment, as noted, really was a minor nitpick.

I mean, heck, if the 'Rebels' TV series DOES have the Advanced start production on Lothal, I imagine we'll actually be seeing quite a few of them at once - making 'TIE Advanced squadrons' totally canonical.

(We'll try to avoid asking questions about why the Raider, fighting battles in the Outer Rim in 6 BBY, somehow has TIE Advanced flying alongside it when they won't enter production for another year... (Heck, maybe it initially deployed WITHOUT a fighter escort, and so the TIE Advanced was rapidly brought into production to deal with the problems the class ran into on its first sorties. That'd be an amusing way to retcon that out...))

Yeah, that 'not mass produced' comment, as noted, really was a minor nitpick.

I mean, heck, if the 'Rebels' TV series DOES have the Advanced start production on Lothal, I imagine we'll actually be seeing quite a few of them at once - making 'TIE Advanced squadrons' totally canonical.

(We'll try to avoid asking questions about why the Raider, fighting battles in the Outer Rim in 6 BBY, somehow has TIE Advanced flying alongside it when they won't enter production for another year... (Heck, maybe it initially deployed WITHOUT a fighter escort, and so the TIE Advanced was rapidly brought into production to deal with the problems the class ran into on its first sorties. That'd be an amusing way to retcon that out...))

It may also have begun service with normal TIEs in mind, and then became part of the impetus for the Advanced design.

Obviously, I'm going to GET the Raider, myself - I'd be crazy not to, it's a gorgeous ship in its own right! That said...that was not how it worked with the A-Wing fix (Chardaan) or Y-Wing fix (BTL-A4) or TIE Interceptor fix (autothrusters) – in all cases, you did have to at least give something up from the base fighter (missiles or a 360 turret or other ship modifications, respectively) that meant what you had afterwards wasn’t strictly always better . SOMETIMES better, if you needed that configuration in a list, but not ALWAYS better. In contrast, the TIE Advanced fix, as presented, is simply a single thing that is ALWAYS better than the stock TIE Advanced. One card, no decisions needed, no cost, always better. That's... frustrating, IMHO .

I would argue that the no drawback is what makes the X1 title a fix more than Chardaan, A-wing Test Pilot, Autothrusters, BTL-A4, or Royal Guard Interceptor. The others, due to them having to make a choice, even if it isn't a very large choice in some cases, makes them options that can boost. The X1 title the greatest thing they have done to "change" a ship in this game. The others add more or different utility to a ship, with some cost to it.

As for it supposed to be rare, wouldn't be more fitting to complain about the 4 new pilots we are getting?

I'll agree with the comment above: the Advanced was so broken that any good fix would be mandatory on it. Fantasy Flight got really clever, though, in that their fix gave it several new builds to try out. The Chardaan refit actually looks kinda mediocre in comparison.

A bit premature. You haven't even seen a bunch of scum dials. Claiming that a certain unreleased and tournament untested card that will come after scum is too much would border on precog.

A bit premature. You haven't even seen a bunch of scum dials. Claiming that a certain unreleased and tournament untested card that will come after scum is too much would border on precog.

I have plenty of experience with Vader. I know what the boost to his firepower means.

That doesn't translate to his ability to dominate an unknown meta that is two expansions out.

The question isn't the comparison to the meta two waves out, but to the same ship without the kit.

Is Vader, stock, as good as Vader who always gets 2 hits every time he fires, costs the same thing, and is in every other way identical? Obviously not, and whatever the meta is or isn't in 2 waves or 12 won't change that.

The question isn't the comparison to the meta two waves out, but to the same ship without the kit.

Is Vader, stock, as good as Vader who always gets 2 hits every time he fires, costs the same thing, and is in every other way identical? Obviously not, and whatever the meta is or isn't in 2 waves or 12 won't change that.

Of course not, he is now more accurately priced, because before he wasn't worth 29 points, more like 25 with it's attack dice limitation.

The title feels obligatory because it is designed to fix the ship's overpricing. Nothing wrong with it.

I hear ya. I won't say it wasn't warranted or doesn't do what it's meant to do. Obviously, I haven't played with it yet, but I, too, have a few minor quibbles...

1. As noted above, the Chardaan Refit kinda pales in comparison. However, that's only half the A-Wing fix. Still, it's a little disappointing that this one fix kind of outshines the other two. Apparently FFG needed to stones to kill one bird there.

2. The whole "there's not reason NOT to take it" argument. I'm not a fan of no-brainer fixes either. At all. More on this in a second.

3. Slapping an Accuracy Corrector on a generic seems ( seems , because we don't actually have them in hand, yet) to make the whole package superior to the X-Wing. Same Hull and Shields and PS, but with +1 Agility and no need to take offensive actions (thus able to add even more to its superior defense). The X-wing has Astromech options, but that costs more points; X-Wing's dial is possibly slightly superior; X-Wing can, possibly one-shot some things. Doesn't seem like quite an even set of trades on paper.

4. I really, really wish the title had reduced the cost by 2 instead! This eliminates some of the "no-brainer" aspect mentioned above, and leaves a lot more design space open for the future.

• Enhanced Scopes? Sure, those are free, because they're pretty situational.
• Fire-Control System? Yeah, you can have that with your 2 Attack dice.
• Accuracy Corrector? Huge help for 2-Attack ships, so that'll cost you 1 point.
• Advanced Sensors? Great upgrade in the right hands, also 1 point.
• Sensor Jammer? You're already pretty solid on Defense, so it'll cost you 2 for that to get even better.

All they would've had to do was make sure Advanced Targeting computer was appropriately priced relative to the above. Then they have a ton more space for future Systems upgrades. Now, instead, some things will have to be ridiculously overpriced for other ships just because the TIE Advanced/x1 gets anything less for free.

So yeah. The title should reduce the cost of the upgrades by 2 instead of 4. Does it make the TIE Advanced more competitive? Sure, but at a cost. Bad design on FFG's part, IMO.

/rant

Why do you feel it outshines the Chaardan ? A-wing fix wasn't only chaardan, it was also a title to allow for either cheap ships with EPT, or double EPT ones to help with their firepower. Chaardan feels obligatory because well, the ship was overcosted in the first place.

In the case of the Tie advanced it is the same, it is overcosted, very likely by the amount of points that the title reduces from the sensor slot itself. You are not getting anything free, you are fixing its base cost while enforcing the 21 minimum price to keep it as a medium fighter, and not allowing you to field 5 of them.

I actually find it a good way to do it. My only gripe with the A-wing fix was that missile slot got useless for them.

I don't know, the only other option would be to FAQ them, but they had already said that they are not doing it.

I actually think that a 2 point decrease is just plain less options. Most times I'd just take an fcs for free and move on. As is I see a lot of folks experimenting with Sensor Jammer, AC and ATC. Obviously the cost of ATC could have been adjusted, but I just don't see a smaller discount creating more options. I think folks would just take the FCS and have a mini PTL, rather then try some of the other toys.

If the current crop of system upgrades are okay for the advanced, I don't think it'll take THAT much work to keep the next bit in line, and I don't see it increasing the cost by much. If AdvSens is okay at 3 points on a B, and free on an Advanced, I have trouble thinking of situations where they'll need to inflate the cost just to keep the Advanced from being to strong with it.

I also prefer this to the Refit, as the Refit means, to me, that missiles are a non consideration for A-Wings. Ordnance already suffers, and I doubt I'll ever see something stellar enough to take after adding two to the cost. Especially in a world with Z-95s. I feel like refit is much more of a "no-brainer" as you will always take it, and it offers no variability. At least this title forces you to choose a system upgrade for the ship to get the discount, and that dictates its role.

For everything awesome FFG does, there is always someone unhappy about it.

I think this is a stretch.....I dont see the fix as being to good at all. Is it a really good ship now? Yes. Will we see builds with 3 or 4? Yes. Do we already see 3-4 (or more) same ship builds? Yes.

Most likely we will see 1 or 2 show up in lists with other ships which means they achieved exactly what they set out to in making it a viable option. The only one who might be slightly overpowered due to the fix is Vader......but hell its Vader and he should be the best ship in the game so Im cool with that.

There are obviously a number of ways to at least provide SOME sense of choice in that title card- it really isn't a case of "well, it needed fixing, so FFG did it the only way they could have".

For example:

• The most obvious fix, if the issue was with the TIE Advanced base cost alone, was to just FAQ the thing, and re-print the current cards (with revised prices) in the expansion as a bonus.
• As suggested in the OP, provide at least a few different title cards to choose from. Now, there is at least a choice. Maybe some of them are unique - maybe some of them actually cost something (I dunno, "TIE Advanced x2: unique, cost 0, adds a cannon slot" ....stuff like that). It's not just a single, no-brainer, card that you ALWAYS take then, there is choice involved.
• As suggested up-thread by another poster - reduce the discount on it to '-2', so taking it doesn't provide nearly the range of "free choices", and most of those you'd want come with a slight/small cost to them. Again, now we are in a place where we have to MAKE A CHOICE (of some kind... at all... even if all the options are great, it's still a choice), which is really what we want to see!
• As suggested in another thread, some months back - don't add that system slot without caveats. I had suggested the idea of building on the 'prototype' concept, maybe have the card add two system slots, with some discount, but you put 3 energy tokens on the card. Every time you USE a system upgrade, remove an energy token from the card and focus token from your ship (or suffer a stress result). When out of energy tokens, roll a damage die and suffer the results - you can no longer use the system. Again, now, it provides a nice perk... but it comes with enough of a caveat that you aren't always taking it .

The key is really to just implement it in such a way that there is SOME decision to taking the 'x1' title or not.

Right now, there isn't.

I won't be joining your club. Fixing the Advanced was a hard problem and I think they have gone about it in a very clever way. I can't wait to fly an advanced in a competitive setting..

- They already stated they WON'T ever FAQ to fix ships and release new cards.

- How exactly do you fix an overcost by not reducing their cost somehow ? And about the options, Getting a sensor slot doesn't provide enough options somehow ?

- It's not a -2 because the ship is not overcosted by 2 points, but by 4.

I said it on another thread, and i will repeat it here, i think it may help.

The tie advanced costs 21 points right now, and it is regarded as very overpriced. Funnily enough, i think MJ had it at 4 points overcost.

What the title does in practice are three things :

- Is able to reduce the standard point cost of the ship by 4 points, fixing the ship overcost as you introduce a sensor upgrade, if it costs 4+, you are getting the best bang.

- Gives you a sensor slot. This gives more options to the ship, i do not understand how you can claim otherwise.

- Maintains the base price to 21 as a minimum.

It was just well designed from the get go imho.

The way you 'fix an overcosted ship without having a (massive) discount on upgrades with no downside' is addressed in several prior posts.

I'm not sure you caught it in the previous posts, as that was what we've been talking about, I'll do a tl;dr recap of some of the options:

• Provide other titles that do other things, so you have at least an 'opportunity cost' in the taking the x1 title.
• Add some other perk that justifies the lack of a discount. Add 2 system slots with a -2 discount to all systems purchase, for example.
• etc

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the fix won't "work" - it certainly fixes the TIE Advanced, giving it interesting new choices and bringing its cost in line with what it should be.

But it's also a hack solution - there is never any reason NOT to take the "x1" title, right now. IMHO, the point of this thread, is that it would have been better to implement a fix to get us to the same place but leaving important choices to be made, still. The Chardaan Refit, BTL-A4 title, and autothrusters all provide good counter-points as to 'how to make something plainly better, but still make it a choice '.

But it's also a hack solution - there is never any reason NOT to take the "x1" title, right now. IMHO, the point of this thread, is that it would have been better to implement a fix to get us to the same place but leaving important choices to be made, still. The Chardaan Refit, BTL-A4 title, and autothrusters all provide good counter-points as to 'how to make something plainly better, but still make it a choice '.

You DO still have a choice no one is forcing you to take it......would you be dumb not to? Yes.

Also the choice of what upgrade to take is a very hard and interesting one and can greatly affect how your ship preforms and this choice will only get harder when more upgrades come out.

I won't be joining your club. Fixing the Advanced was a hard problem and I think they have gone about it in a very clever way. I can't wait to fly an advanced in a competitive setting..

Ditto for me as well. Tired of nay sayers

I still say Refit is way way less of a choice. It is a simple -2 cost, and basically the only option. Using a missile costs 2 more points then the base card. That means you are outright getting taxed if you chose to use missiles, meaning unless the missile is A-Wing only, I'll always go for a different carrier.

On the other hand, the Advanced has no counterpart. Nothing else can take a system slot upgrade and come in at 21 points. And the choice between those upgrades is where the choice is, not in whether to use the title. As I said earlier, any fix would probably have been mandatory, as the Advanced is so far below the curve.