The same goes for you though. You lose one TIE out of seven...well theres still six ships against three?

I'm impressed at the legs this thread has had so far, and the ideas people are coming up with.

Clearly, people want to be able to use ordnance.. they'd just like a way to use it competitively.

Being able to one shot a ship with a Proton Torpedo is ace.. being able to balance that ability seems like an entirely different kettle of fish.

Here's another possible idea (either by rule change (unlikely), or upgrade card):

How about if ordnance was fired in addition to rather than instead of a primary weapon attack? I think that would go a long way towards making up for the all the hoops we need to jump through to use our one shot weapon, but would it go too far? How about if there was an additional restriction that the primary and ordnance attacks had to be at the same target?

I like the "in addition" to idea. For me that's the next best option to altering the missile and torpedo types.

Well, I think I might be convinced that too many missiles would represent 1 shot kills against too many fighters- if my idea were put into widespread use. I do think it should be a thing. I'd kinda love if A-Wings with missiles routinely 1-shot tie fighters. And torpedoes that could put every successful die onto the shields and hull of a Falcon would see a whole new field of possibilities against Fat Han.

But it's that midrange that hurts. I'm not convinced that a 4 point missile ought to have a 75% chance of taking out a 30 point Tie Interceptor. Creating a set of rules that treats Squints and Eyeballs differently is a bit harder than a mere FAQ change.

I actually do like the idea of Z-95s as ordinence carriers, Blount loves that idea! It would be cool to have 2 types of lists with headhunters. And missile A-Wings would be totally different from missile headhunters.

Not to mention getting Horton Salm on to the table (heart you, BTL-A4)!

But again: doing so at the cost of all the 25-35 point ships would be a bit problematic. And so back to the drawing board!

Does double damage not solve this? Still not likely to hit ties but could be devastating to 1 agility ships.

*maybe that sounds too strong. You could easily do 6 damage to a falcon in a single shot. Maybe a 1 point mod that gives your missiles and torpedoes a free crit result.

I would never let it get within range 1 of something that could kill it, if I could help it.

Given the number of times people have had a Outrider with a HLC shut down completely because they can't get the other ship out of range 1 makes it clear that it's not something you always have the ability to do.

Plus all it takes is 1 Direct Hit! and you do it with a normal torpedo at range 3.

but I'm simply saying I am so unsatisfied with the current mechanic for ordinance I'm willing to try it.

And so am I. But that doesn't mean the answer is making Ord that OP'ed, and/or ask for rules changes which FFG is not inclined to do.

There was a modification above that would with a few tweaks seem to make ord worth taking yet wouldn't make it OP'ed. Where <evades> become <focus> for missiles and <crits> bypass shields. Plus it wouldn't require changing any rules.

Yes, thinking about it some more (and when I started to think how often homing missiles have 4 hits) I'm thinking cancelling all evades is too powerful. Something like the mod you referenced might be good, but I don't like how it makes the evade action even less common.

I was toying with the idea of missiles cancelling 1 evade if it hits, and torpedoes also cancelling 1 evade if it hits and dealing the first damage that would be cancelled by a shield directly to the hull. Very similar to the mod you mentioned. I'd like to see something like that just be a rule change, but as many have pointed out it would have to be some kind of upgrade based on FFG past actions.

First off every middle and torpedo is considered an upgrade which is no differed then barrel roll upgrade. Secondly I've seen most dev interviews and they have never said 99% of what you wrote esepcially the systement about not changing how cards work. The closest statement I've ever heard from ffg was that they would never change what's on a card with errata but that has absolutely nothing to do with changing how something works just like they changed barrel rolll.

So unless you are a dev or can pull a statement from your nether regions from a dev saying they won't change how certain abilities work (which is impossible since they changed barrel roll a core ability that existed since wave one) and was used on large ships since wave 2. Then it's entirely possible for them to adjust the bahavior of ordnance without changing a single word on the cards and still work under thier self imposed errata rules. But like I said feel free to point that statement out.

I have been thinking about this problem for at least the last year, but have avoided wading into these discussions until today. I hold the unpopular position that the munitions cards are costed correctly; it's the way the cards work that is not proportionate to that cost. I feel like there is no reason (other than thematically) to require a TL (or it's use), or Focus (or the use of it) to fire it. If the cards functioned identically except for those requirements, it fixes pretty much all of the problems as I see them. However, FFG has been pretty specific about a change that large and sweeping not having much chance of happening. In addition to a large change in the rules set and the text on effected munitions cards, it would also make Deadeye redundant and I would like to see redundant cards even less than banned cards.

Judging from the way FFG has handled this in the past, it's likely that they could make a mod that is zero or one point and removes any firing requirements other than range and arc. Such a mod could compete with, not eliminate, munitions failsafe and solves the issue at hand. Namely, you could use the torp/missle to make the shot that matters when it matters, instead of telegraphing it for a turn before hand (which justifies the cost of the munition, no?).

I think that this fix (or one very much like it) has the ability to make munitions more playable without becoming OP and without destroying the rules as we know them/forcing heaps of errata on us.

Ok I keep seeing this "4 points of such and such ordinance shouldn't be able to one shot a tie" and that's just complete and utter nonsense.

You show me a squad where I can field ordinance without attaching it to a ship and I'll agree with you.

Ok I keep seeing this "4 points of such and such ordinance shouldn't be able to one shot a tie" and that's just complete and utter nonsense.

You show me a squad where I can field ordinance without attaching it to a ship and I'll agree with you.

It's not a case of not being ABLE to one shot something. It's that if a 16pt Z95 will USUALLY one-shot a 30+pt interceptor, no-one in their right mind is going to use interceptors. I don't like the idea of invalidating ships in order to fix upgrade cards, because to me the ships are more important.

That 30 point interceptor isn't flying very well if a 16 point Z catches him in the cross hairs without getting destroyed first. Again, your example is assuming only one outcome in an engagement, but my money is on the interceptor.

That 30 point interceptor isn't flying very well if a 16 point Z catches him in the cross hairs without getting destroyed first. Again, your example is assuming only one outcome in an engagement, but my money is on the interceptor.

Have you even played this game, or is this entirely theoretical for you? Arc-dodging is about staying out of SOME arcs, so that you don't get focus-fired down; and keeping the range to your advantage. If you are able to stay out of EVERY arc, you are playing against the special needs kids. It never happens, even with really good players against complete noobs.

Hmm, argumentum ad hominem. I'm not the one assuming nearly single variables when determining if something will happen or not. My point is that there are a lot of other elements involved in this picture than your very simplistic "if X upgrade then Y ships get one shotted." Your also imagining a list made up of all missile capable fighters equipped with missiles flying against the poor 30 point interceptor. The game is so much more than that. It's not necessary to avoid all the arcs but the one which is the threat. That's up to the player and there are so many ways to maneuver that it becomes difficult to accept your proposition. Not to mention list composition and what other ships are doing during a game. 10-1, if this upgrade were available, the missile carriers would be priority targets. I could assume, like you, that the Z is just getting whacked by Whisper and therefore wasting 4 upgrade points.

I think many of the suggestions would make the game to complicated. The game is designed to be fast and simple. Many of the rules suggested here would make the game unbalanced and more complicated than it needs to be.

I do play ordinance all the time. Ordinance are an Alpha Strike that is very effective against low PS ships.

Any fix would have to come in the form of an upgrade card or new pilot abilities.

ex.

>Modification upgrade card, “Improved Sensor” for increase range on target locks, can acquire a TL at range 4 or 5 would be very useful, maintain multiple TL.

>would love to see long range ordinance.

>Tie Bomber Pilot PS8 with a EP Upgrade slot.

Pilot Ability: Pilot may fire any time during the activation phase. If you use this ability, you must skip your Combat Phase during the round.

> I would love to see a missile that you would “fly” on the board. Pilot skill 12, Agility 4, 1 hp. I think it would be fun trying to out fly of ti's way while trying to shoot the missile down. (Just a thought, and nothing serous.)

it's likely that they could make a mod that is zero or one point and removes any firing requirements other than range and arc. Such a mod could compete with, not eliminate, munitions failsafe and solves the issue at hand. Namely, you could use the torp/missle to make the shot that matters when it matters, instead of telegraphing it for a turn before hand (which justifies the cost of the munition, no?).

I like this suggestion, but it would have to be an Upgrade card, "Like advanced traking computer" for the ship OR a new Missile Card,

I wonder how well an EPT or ordnance that would allow a pilot to give TLs to some allies against a target that was just hit would work. Painting the Target would allow those low PS ordnance carriers the chance to get a TL against targets that may have been out of range when they acted; it could also allow ships to shift their TLs after the start of the combat round.

...snip...

In so many ways non-discarding ordnance effectively becomes a cannon in a different upgrade slot. It may have some other cost associated with using it but that is what it would be.

And that's exactly what I'm afraid of. the discarding is what makes torpedoes and missiles unique and separates them from cannons thematically and mechanically. They need to feel different or whats the point?

When ordnance, for the most part, requires a TL on the target it is to be used against that is enough to differentiate it from cannons for me.

Aside from the outrageous cost how would non-discarding ordnance be all that different from loading up a TIE Bomber and giving it Munitions Failsafe just for good measure?

Still leaves it feeling like a less convenient cannon. The difference is that it's still being fired off.

Why do munitions need a mechanic tweak? Why not just make better munitions? Or something like this:

How about a new modification?

Extra magazine
2 points
Modificatrion

When you would discard a secondary weapon card due to it's own effect, discard this card instead

And there, done. Fixes the problem by giving you twice the power at discount without obsoleting any older munitions while keeping the better stuff from becoming overpowered.

Modification (bomber only)

Advanced targeting sensors

7pts

Missles and torpedoes ignore shields

Or maybe

Crits ignore shields

So, i kinda lean to either an infinite use/double use, or the missles/torps ingnore evades/sheilds. But i think that would be devastingly OP. But what if the rule was changed so that crits only ignored evades/sheilds? It would give ordinance a nastier kick without being uber powerful.

The newer munitions cards seem to be more of a gimmick than a power boost (with the exception of proton rockets) The best Torpedo weapon right now is a newer one with the flechette torpedoes with the ability to cause stress if it hits or not. 2nd place would be the classic proton torpedo as it has a good firepower and a built in dice modifier to make it more successful when hitting and the spending of the target lock not as bad of a deal.

The best missile secondary weapon (so Chardaan refit is excluded from this category) is arguably the proton rocket. Not because it is super powerful (it is still a range 1 weapon) but because it is more likely to hit and the development team has better crafted a secondary weapon that can provide a boost with out it being available to all missile carriers and have the same effect. What I would consider the 2nd best missile weapon would be plain old concussion missiles because of the guaranteed hit if you can get focus on the turn you fire them. The newer munitions are more of a gimmick with the splash damage, the attack twice or the double ion tokens to ionize large ships in one turn.

Ordnance is in a precarious spot right now. The classic ones while one of the best of its type will need a helping hand. Newer ones will need to be good but in order to prevent gross imbalance and totally off set previous versions will need some situation requirements like high agility or can only be used at certain ranges so it boost some ships but not across the board where this upgrade is a MUST HAVE if you want to remain competitive. The meta while some what predictable can be made all the worst if munitions are not upgraded carefully. Can you imagine a meta game where it all depends on who can get the first hit with a 1 attack weapon? I'd rather not!

Why do munitions need a mechanic tweak? Why not just make better munitions? Or something like this:

How about a new modification?

Extra magazine

2 points

Modificatrion

When you would discard a secondary weapon card due to it's own effect, discard this card instead

And there, done. Fixes the problem by giving you twice the power at discount without obsoleting any older munitions while keeping the better stuff from becoming overpowered.

Except that Munitions Failsafe is already better at half the price.

Why do munitions need a mechanic tweak? Why not just make better munitions? Or something like this:

How about a new modification?

Extra magazine

2 points

Modificatrion

When you would discard a secondary weapon card due to it's own effect, discard this card instead

And there, done. Fixes the problem by giving you twice the power at discount without obsoleting any older munitions while keeping the better stuff from becoming overpowered.

Except that Munitions Failsafe is already better at half the price.

How is Munitions Failsafe better when it only has a chance of doing anything? You have to miss your shot in order for it to do work. My suggestion always does something. It's basically a second torpedo/missile for 2 points.