What I see happening is that there will be a lot of options out there. People will be trying to make Scum work. There are new ships, upgrades, and pilots that will be a whole new game to some. There will be builds that people aren't thinking of right now that will work. I also see other factors working, too. People will feel Interceptors are worth it with auto thrusters. People LOVE their Interceptors. Also, the Tie Advanced will be a force to be dealt with. Not just that, but there are now 3 big turreted ships. Each will have their own way to play. As I see it, there will be a lot of people trying a lot of things in the near future. All of these will smash together and have an odd effect. Some people will just want to fly something other than a Fat Han. Others will be inspired to try something different. I see things as being far less rock/paper/scissors than they are now. Someone might find a list that smashes Fat Hans, but loses to something else. Fat Hans might not make it to the final tables as much. I see a hodge-podge of lists and ideas that will happen. I think it's a good thing.

Sycks with mangler have already been calculated to not be worth the cost.

are you kidding with this? i mean really? we're months away from ever seeing it and you've already ruled it sub-par. its this kind of thinking that ruins the board.

Agreed.

I worry that in a competitive list it will become impossible NOT to run a large ship, which makes things challenging for interceptor lists with or without autothrusters

Flachette Cannons won’t cost that much, but give out stress to anyone they hit.

Flechette Cannons don't give out stress to anyone they hit. The only give stress to targets that don't already have it.

I will say the the cannons have less restrictions than the torpedoes. If it is a big ship or has a lot of hull points the torpedoes are worthless while the cannons remain.

I worry that in a competitive list it will become impossible NOT to run a large ship, which makes things challenging for interceptor lists with or without autothrusters

This is what I worried about, too, but with all the new stuff coming out, I don't think it will be the case. I'm sure that the Winter store championships will be dominated by them, but after Scum and the Imp. Raider comes out, I think things will change a lot. Personally, I'm planning on going with an all Tie Bomber list to deal with large ships. I am picking up my last ones tonight and should try my first game tonight, as well.

I think there are things that can defeat large turret ships now, but against a really skilled opponent, the large ships have advantage. They aren't unbeatable, but they do have advantage against most lists. Personally, I think 4 X-wings in the hands of a great player could win major tournament, but most great players are taking the lists that offer more fault tolerance.

Part of what I see with all the new stuff is people wanting to fly something other than the Fat Han. Other stuff I see will actually be able to counter Fat Han. Will it counter other things? Maybe or maybe not, but you will see Fat Hans that would normally go to the final tables be taken down ahead of time by unsual lists. I see a greater variety of stuff making it to the final tables. People point to Worlds as a great example of variety, but 1/3 of all final lists had a Fat Han. That's too much of one thing for me. I don't think we will see 1/3 of one large ship type at Worlds this next year.

The mets in 2015 will be this.

Imperial lists centered around phantoms.

Rebel lists centered around fat Han and super dash

Scum lists centered around firespray and mini swarm

Out of the above 3 I fully expect fat Han to continue winning.

The above can honestly change if the new raider has some serious crew upgrades like the cr90 gave Rebels with c3po and r2d2. However I doubt that the imperial crew will be anywhere as impactful to the meta as those two were.

The mets in 2015 will be this.

Imperial lists centered around phantoms.

Rebel lists centered around fat Han and super dash

Scum lists centered around firespray and mini swarm

Out of the above 3 I fully expect fat Han to continue winning.

The above can honestly change if the new raider has some serious crew upgrades like the cr90 gave Rebels with c3po and r2d2. However I doubt that the imperial crew will be anywhere as impactful to the meta as those two were.

You don't think the fixes for the Tie Advanced will have an impact? If you take a bunch of generic Tie Advanced with Auto Correctors, you will see Fat Hans going up in flames. Also, Marek Steele could seriously hurt a Fat Han, as long as someone else fires first to knock out the C-3PO defense.

Also, you think the only competitive list to come out of Scum and Villany will be Firesprays and mini-swarms?

Auto-thrusters will see people take Interceptors again. Those are some agile ships with a high attack value. I think they can be a tough nut to crack for a Fat Han.

Is the Decimator not competitive at all, is what you are saying? It will have zero impact on the meta? I think you are wrong there.

Got to say, I am impressed with how FFG's trying to bring back mid-PS: by giving Scum some explosive pilots in the mid-low PS range.

Part of what I see with all the new stuff is people wanting to fly something other than the Fat Han. Other stuff I see will actually be able to counter Fat Han. Will it counter other things? Maybe or maybe not, but you will see Fat Hans that would normally go to the final tables be taken down ahead of time by unsual lists. I see a greater variety of stuff making it to the final tables. People point to Worlds as a great example of variety, but 1/3 of all final lists had a Fat Han. That's too much of one thing for me. I don't think we will see 1/3 of one large ship type at Worlds this next year.

The phantom wasn't and that largely considered the most powerful ship in gane right now.

Scum gives some cute tricks like turning a ps9 pilot into ps0 but that doesnt do much to fat Han.

Scum can also steal action economy but that really isn't what makes fat Han strong since its primary atk w han ability and gunner is already reliable and its defense is reliable due to c3po and or r2d2.

The other reason fat Han wins tournaments is because it's a large point sink that highly durable making modified wins fall into its favor.

Falcons Achilles heel use to be swarms w Hans shoots first and to a degree it still is decent vs Falcons however swarms have lost a lot of thier bite. In order to kill a fat falcon now you need a mini swarm style ship list durable enough not to be 1 shooted and that puts out enough atk dice to kill a falcon in ~3 turns.

The mets in 2015 will be this.

Imperial lists centered around phantoms.

Rebel lists centered around fat Han and super dash

Scum lists centered around firespray and mini swarm

Out of the above 3 I fully expect fat Han to continue winning.

The above can honestly change if the new raider has some serious crew upgrades like the cr90 gave Rebels with c3po and r2d2. However I doubt that the imperial crew will be anywhere as impactful to the meta as those two were.

You don't think the fixes for the Tie Advanced will have an impact? If you take a bunch of generic Tie Advanced with Auto Correctors, you will see Fat Hans going up in flames. Also, Marek Steele could seriously hurt a Fat Han, as long as someone else fires first to knock out the C-3PO defense.

Also, you think the only competitive list to come out of Scum and Villany will be Firesprays and mini-swarms?

Auto-thrusters will see people take Interceptors again. Those are some agile ships with a high attack value. I think they can be a tough nut to crack for a Fat Han.

Is the Decimator not competitive at all, is what you are saying? It will have zero impact on the meta? I think you are wrong there.

Lol auto thrusters will see people taking sontir again. That's it in any competitive way. At best it's marginally useful vs Falcons at worse its a waste of points. People already heavily tried stealth device interceptors and they are still the glass cannon they always were auto thrusters are the same thing with a different package.

I think the ywing refit is going to be used but I am talking about the lists I feel will have the most impact on the meta. Also I feel a few of the new scum ships are going to be overpriced. Hello ig2000!!!

The decimator issue is that it has no synergy with upgrades. It's a brick and its already losing regularly to fat Han and super dash lists. But like I said if imperials get crew upgrades that provide a significant impact on play the decimator can be better although I don't expect the impact like the Rebels received with c3po or r2d2.

The new Scum Firesprays will give the Falcon issues. Heck, Firesprays have been able to give Falcons issues. Scum Kath will have the firepower to overwhelm the Falcon. Emon can toss out a lot of bombs. As good as Fett can be, I don't exactly trust him to be that powerful with a boosting Falcon/Outrider.

The new Scum Firesprays will give the Falcon issues. Heck, Firesprays have been able to give Falcons issues. Scum Kath will have the firepower to overwhelm the Falcon. Emon can toss out a lot of bombs. As good as Fett can be, I don't exactly trust him to be that powerful with a boosting Falcon/Outrider.

"Marginally useful against Falcons".

Do you know how hard is it for a Fat Han with to predator + luke to even hit a double focus / evade soontir ?

You need a complete blank roll to get one point damage through (and that's with Han getting 3 hits, of course). Out of all the possibilities with 3 dice (blank, blank, evade;; blank, evade, blank;; evade, blank, blank;; focus, blank, blank.... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.). It can happen (around 1/20), sure, but it is extremely rare and you would only get 1 damage through anyways.

"Marginally useful against Falcons".

Do you know how hard is it for a Fat Han with to predator + luke to even hit a double focus / evade soontir ?

You need a complete blank roll to get one point damage through (and that's with Han getting 3 hits, of course). Out of all the possibilities with 3 dice (blank, blank, evade;; blank, evade, blank;; evade, blank, blank;; focus, blank, blank.... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.). It can happen (around 1/20), sure, but it is extremely rare and you would only get 1 damage through anyways.

"Auto thrusters will see people taking soontir again. That's it in any competitive way."

Also your completely overlooking what luke/gunner does. The first volley is just so you waste your evade/focus tokens. The second volley leaves your evade dice mostly unmodified.

Also I rarely take predator on Han he already allows you to reroll while predator is slightly better you can't reroll a reroll so it's basically points better spent elsewhere.

I did read you, the numbers i am mentioning, are not about soontir fel, it's just a regular 3 agility dice ship with Focus + Evade. I should had clarified it from the get go.

What i am implying is that the upgrade is anything but marginal against turrets, which is the actual problem interceptors had. They were always be "glass cannons" to some extent, like the phantom is, but the upgrade is not comparable to stealth device because it doesn't rely on you having good rolls, but having bad ones. I don't have troubles playing against anything else than either turret HLC's or predator + predator/gunner for the obvious reasons (specially the freaking luke predator), being much harder (and we are talking about being x5 times harder to hit in here) is certainly great against turrets.

Against other lists, i don't know, normally when i get shot back with interceptors i could place myself at range 3 most of the time already. I see it being useful in the hit and run tactics we employ when playing interceptors already.

Not to speak that there will be ships like the IG who will be able to carry them while retaining a high hull/shield pool. The only ships i don't think will have much use of the autothruster, is the A-wing, and that's because their 2 attack dice pool is quite bad on a high agility meta, or high absorb.

I did read you, the numbers i am mentioning, are not about soontir fel, it's just a regular 3 agility dice ship with Focus + Evade. I should had clarified it from the get go.

What i am implying is that the upgrade is anything but marginal against turrets, which is the actual problem interceptors had. They were always be "glass cannons" to some extent, like the phantom is, but the upgrade is not comparable to stealth device because it doesn't rely on you having good rolls, but having bad ones. I don't have troubles playing against anything else than either turret HLC's or predator + predator/gunner for the obvious reasons (specially the freaking luke predator), being much harder (and we are talking about being x5 times harder to hit in here) is certainly great against turrets.

Against other lists, i don't know, normally when i get shot back with interceptors i could place myself at range 3 most of the time already. I see it being useful in the hit and run tactics we employ when playing interceptors already.

Not to speak that there will be ships like the IG who will be able to carry them while retaining a high hull/shield pool. The only ships i don't think will have much use of the autothruster, is the A-wing, and that's because their 2 attack dice pool is quite bad on a high agility meta, or high absorb.

Furthermore best thing about Luke/gunner is the first volley generally ends up eating your evade/focus tokens leaving the second volley vs an unmodified evade roll.

Soontir however is a different case and I fully expect him to be popular again.

And honestly I don't know how you don't have problems against whisper? She is basically a more manuverable interceptor w a better atk. Unless of course you outfly your opponent in which case it's pilot not ship issues.

Interceptors are already played with PtL, that's nothing new about it. And they have plenty of green maneuver options to not be predictable. The good thing about autothruster is that the first volley won't eat up all tokens (and it's very likely it won't eat any token at all).

Look, do an experiment. Get your dice, and roll a Han + Predator + Luke against a 3 agility + Focus + Evade, 20 times, so you can get the grasps of how good it actually is.

Interceptors are already played with PtL, that's nothing new about it. And they have plenty of green maneuver options to not be predictable. The good thing about autothruster is that the first volley won't eat up all tokens (and it's very likely it won't eat any token at all).

Look, do an experiment. Get your dice, and roll a Han + Predator + Luke against a 3 agility + Focus + Evade, 20 times, so you can get the grasps of how good it actually is.

I just want to fly some cheap generics kitted out with torpedoes.

THE RETURN OF XXYY IS NIGH!!!

I dont care about Rebel ships per se but I am excited to see the Y-Wing make a comeback in Scum and Villany...i have much love for the Y-Wing from the movies and this game.

Han + Predator + Luke on a vacuum.

First attack:

Average hits 2.32

0 hits - 2%

1 hit - 10%

2 hits - 40%

3 hits - 46%

Second attack:

Average hits 2.81 (in reality, slightly lower since i ran the numbers as if he had a focus, instead of just 1 roll as focus, but whatever)

0 hits - 0 %

1 hit - 2 %

2 hits - 14 %

3 hits - 84 %

That's hardly having pretty much guaranteed 3 hits every attack (second attack is much more likely, but first attack is more likely TO NOT get 3 hits). But sure, i will keep up making stuff up.

Fat han predator + luke vs 3 dice agility focus + evade (alltogether)

Average hits 0.20

0 hits - 81%

1 hit - 15%

2 hits - 2%

Now if you get autothrusters

Average hits 0.04

0 hits - 96%

1 hit - 4%

Now, i would be thankful if people more literate on maths than me correct the numbers.

Han + Predator + Luke on a vacuum.

First attack:

Average hits 2.32

0 hits - 2%

1 hit - 10%

2 hits - 40%

3 hits - 46%

Second attack:

Average hits 2.81 (in reality, slightly lower since i ran the numbers as if he had a focus, instead of just 1 roll as focus, but whatever)

0 hits - 0 %

1 hit - 2 %

2 hits - 14 %

3 hits - 84 %

That's hardly having pretty much guaranteed 3 hits every attack (second attack is much more likely, but first attack is more likely TO NOT get 3 hits). But sure, i will keep up making stuff up.

Fat han predator + luke vs 3 dice agility focus + evade (alltogether)

Average hits 0.20

0 hits - 81%

1 hit - 15%

2 hits - 2%

Now if you get autothrusters

Average hits 0.04

0 hits - 96%

1 hit - 4%

Now, i would be thankful if people more literate on maths than me correct the numbers.

First if u have Han and predator. You have the choice to use either ability so if you roll 2 or 3 blanks you can reroll all 3.

That wasn't taken into account.

Second you didn't include a focus token in the first volley, which you take nearly every time, but include it on your push the limit interceptor.

Third predator and Hans ability as both in effect during Luke's ability as well as the possibility of the focus token beig used then.

All of which increase the chance to hit.

This makes Hans first volley higher then 2.81 and like I said previously almost garaunteed 3 hits.

It was taken into account. In both cases. If you have the numbers to correct them, please do it, i don't mind being wrong.

And no, i didn't take into account the focus in the first one, because that you remove you from using evade or EU, which on a vacuum scenario would be fine, but it's not in game.

It's inpossibke for you to take it into account considering you have the second atk a higher rating Then the first. That would be statistically impossible considering the first atk would of been focused and the second atk at best would of had 1 focus become a hit.

You then used the 2.81 hit number vs an interceptor and never ran the fact the interceptor was likely not to have an evade and focus token on the second hit.

But let's do the Focused Han, just for data purposes.

Average hits 1

0 hits - 28%

1 hit - 47%

2 hits - 19%

3 hits - 4%

Autothruster

Average hits 0,23

0 hits - 75%

1 hit - 19%

2 hits - 4%

Edit - Also i guess i didn't explain myself well enough, the second attack It was meant to be the attack triggered by Luke, but i used a focus because i don't have the tools to calculate only Luke (i could, but it would take me too long), so it actually shows up higher than it should be, since Luke only allows to modify one focus, instead of 1+ that happens with a focus result.

What list that's been spoiled is a counter to fan Han?

What I believe is that it will take a while for things that have been released for good things to perculate to the top. With items just released, I don't find it practical to say that it's not effective. People haven't even gotten games in with them yet.

The new cannons are something that I think could seriously change the game. You get them from S&V, but any ship can use them. Mangler Cannon with Imperial Kath or Krassis are good options that don't cost nearly as much as a HLC. They can also be used on B-wings for cheaper than HLC B-wings. I think it needs to be seen what these things do for the meta. A Fat Han will be hating critical hits. You can use C-3PO against one attack, but if you are taking criticals each round, you can go down fast.

Yes, Fat Han is a lot of hits to go through and very manueverable. Also, it's a shorter game and harder to kill it. That doesn't mean that it is impossible. The more shots that fire at a Falcon the worse it does. C-3PO will work against one attack a turn. I find that if you are able to get a number of 3 attack die ships firing at the Falcon every turn, it will die. There are a number of ships now that can do this. There are a number of ships that can do that and have good evasive skills or tankability.

Serissu (Scyk)

4 x Generic Scyk w/ Hvy Upgrade & Mangler Cannons

This will be 4 ships attacking with 3 dice (and no range modifiers) and the dodge bonus from the named.

B-wings with Mangler Cannons will also make a difference. They have the shields to take a few hits and still keep firing.

With cheap ships with Ion Cannons and Flachette Cannons, you will see the mobility of the Falcon reduced. If you know where the Falcon will be next turn (or have a good idea) then you can deal some serious damage to it. There are a number of new items, pilots, upgrades that can dish out the stress and Ions.

There are also a ton of things that the S&V will be able to do that people haven't even used yet. All the abilities to strip an evade or drop someone to 0 PS helps. If you are in a shooting match with Fat Han, every time you get to fire first is a ship that might be alive to fire first.

however I still don't see bombs being efficient in any way unless I'm playing epic.

Have you not seen the Proxmity Mine change? If you have a low PS ship, you can move and then drop the bomb on top of someone whom hasn't moved yet. That's 3 red dice with no chance to evade. There is also that guy who can throw the bombs with the different 3 range markers. You will see people who will get good at lobbing those bombs on large ships.

The advance fix is nice however u are still talking about the equivalent of a 3 atk ship. That requires the use of an action to focus fire and adds a point to the advanced. At most you can take 4 advanced pilots. Vs a fat falcon and mini swarm you will still expect to see 1 advanced die each turn. The question is can you focus fire a fat falcon before it destroys your 4 tie advanced. Maarek steel is my favorite ship and best falcon killer however you take him and you can't take 4 adv.

Take Auto Corrector instead. It's the same price as the Tie Advanced now. You don't have to spend an action on Focus or TL on offense. You can Focus or Evade as an action. You roll the dice and if it's not better than 2 hits, you use the AC. You get your 3 evade dice with your defensive action. You have 3 green dice, a defensive action, and 5 hull/shield points. I don't see a Fat Han killing a Tie Interceptor a turn. It will shot at by 4 ships with 2 hits each round. That's a lot of hits to evade that it can't do each turn.

The decimator issue is that it has no synergy with upgrades. It's a brick and its already losing regularly to fat Han and super dash lists. But like I said if imperials get crew upgrades that provide a significant impact on play the decimator can be better although I don't expect the impact like the Rebels received with c3po or r2d2.

I say that the Decimator will be able to take some good ships along with it that can make the difference. It's not just the Decimator vs Fat Han....but the whole list.

Lol auto thrusters will see people taking sontir again. That's it in any competitive way. At best it's marginally useful vs Falcons at worse its a waste of points. People already heavily tried stealth device interceptors and they are still the glass cannon they always were auto thrusters are the same thing with a different package.

I can see generic Interceptors being used against a Fat Han. Take them with the autothrusters and you have a ship that's hard to kill in one turn, has 3 attack dice, and is very manueverable. You need to pour the fire on the Fat Han to see it die. I can see a decimator w/ several Tie Interceptors like this that can put the hurt on Fat Han. Ints will Focus, which will make them hard to kill. I don't see many one shots from Fat Han. Remember that one blank is always turned into an evade, even with Gunner. I see one or two hits getting through, but not 3 on a regular basis. The other Ints and Decimator can wear the Falcon down.

Personally, it seems you have written many of the recent new stuff off without even seeing them on the table first. People are inventive and you could be surprised by what people can come up with.