But let's do the Focused Han, just for data purposes.

Average hits 1

0 hits - 28%

1 hit - 47%

2 hits - 19%

3 hits - 4%

Autothruster

Average hits 0,23

0 hits - 75%

1 hit - 19%

2 hits - 4%

Edit - Also i guess i didn't explain myself well enough, the second attack It was meant to be the attack triggered by Luke, but i used a focus because i don't have the tools to calculate only Luke (i could, but it would take me too long), so it actually shows up higher than it should be, since Luke only allows to modify one focus, instead of 1+ that happens with a focus result.

To make the numbers easier to run drop predator and just do Han solo w Luke and a focus token.

Predator adds an additional layer.

I didn't drop Lukeand predator. That i didn't write it was because i found it irrelevant. But they are TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT in the results. I just said Focused Han, as Han + Predator + Luke that we had been speaking about used Focus action, instead of the obvious Evade or Engine upgrade that are way more prevalent.

Do i really need to write "Han + predator + Focus + Luke" every single time when we had been an entire page talking about Han + Predator + Luke ? Do you really need the clarification ?

Oh, and Drea Renthal with a Proton Torpedo is a good option. He fires the torp and gets to keep the TL for the re-roll (but gets a stressed). That's 4 dice with a re-roll and an eyeball is a crit. With the mid PS firing, C-3PO should be used up by then. Possibly even without an evade.

What list that's been spoiled is a counter to fan Han?

What I believe is that it will take a while for things that have been released for good things to perculate to the top. With items just released, I don't find it practical to say that it's not effective. People haven't even gotten games in with them yet.

The new cannons are something that I think could seriously change the game. You get them from S&V, but any ship can use them. Mangler Cannon with Imperial Kath or Krassis are good options that don't cost nearly as much as a HLC. They can also be used on B-wings for cheaper than HLC B-wings. I think it needs to be seen what these things do for the meta. A Fat Han will be hating critical hits. You can use C-3PO against one attack, but if you are taking criticals each round, you can go down fast.

Yes, Fat Han is a lot of hits to go through and very manueverable. Also, it's a shorter game and harder to kill it. That doesn't mean that it is impossible. The more shots that fire at a Falcon the worse it does. C-3PO will work against one attack a turn. I find that if you are able to get a number of 3 attack die ships firing at the Falcon every turn, it will die. There are a number of ships now that can do this. There are a number of ships that can do that and have good evasive skills or tankability.

Serissu (Scyk)

4 x Generic Scyk w/ Hvy Upgrade & Mangler Cannons

This will be 4 ships attacking with 3 dice (and no range modifiers) and the dodge bonus from the named.

B-wings with Mangler Cannons will also make a difference. They have the shields to take a few hits and still keep firing.

With cheap ships with Ion Cannons and Flachette Cannons, you will see the mobility of the Falcon reduced. If you know where the Falcon will be next turn (or have a good idea) then you can deal some serious damage to it. There are a number of new items, pilots, upgrades that can dish out the stress and Ions.

There are also a ton of things that the S&V will be able to do that people haven't even used yet. All the abilities to strip an evade or drop someone to 0 PS helps. If you are in a shooting match with Fat Han, every time you get to fire first is a ship that might be alive to fire first.

however I still don't see bombs being efficient in any way unless I'm playing epic.

Have you not seen the Proxmity Mine change? If you have a low PS ship, you can move and then drop the bomb on top of someone whom hasn't moved yet. That's 3 red dice with no chance to evade. There is also that guy who can throw the bombs with the different 3 range markers. You will see people who will get good at lobbing those bombs on large ships.

The advance fix is nice however u are still talking about the equivalent of a 3 atk ship. That requires the use of an action to focus fire and adds a point to the advanced. At most you can take 4 advanced pilots. Vs a fat falcon and mini swarm you will still expect to see 1 advanced die each turn. The question is can you focus fire a fat falcon before it destroys your 4 tie advanced. Maarek steel is my favorite ship and best falcon killer however you take him and you can't take 4 adv.

Take Auto Corrector instead. It's the same price as the Tie Advanced now. You don't have to spend an action on Focus or TL on offense. You can Focus or Evade as an action. You roll the dice and if it's not better than 2 hits, you use the AC. You get your 3 evade dice with your defensive action. You have 3 green dice, a defensive action, and 5 hull/shield points. I don't see a Fat Han killing a Tie Interceptor a turn. It will shot at by 4 ships with 2 hits each round. That's a lot of hits to evade that it can't do each turn.

The decimator issue is that it has no synergy with upgrades. It's a brick and its already losing regularly to fat Han and super dash lists. But like I said if imperials get crew upgrades that provide a significant impact on play the decimator can be better although I don't expect the impact like the Rebels received with c3po or r2d2.

I say that the Decimator will be able to take some good ships along with it that can make the difference. It's not just the Decimator vs Fat Han....but the whole list.

Lol auto thrusters will see people taking sontir again. That's it in any competitive way. At best it's marginally useful vs Falcons at worse its a waste of points. People already heavily tried stealth device interceptors and they are still the glass cannon they always were auto thrusters are the same thing with a different package.

I can see generic Interceptors being used against a Fat Han. Take them with the autothrusters and you have a ship that's hard to kill in one turn, has 3 attack dice, and is very manueverable. You need to pour the fire on the Fat Han to see it die. I can see a decimator w/ several Tie Interceptors like this that can put the hurt on Fat Han. Ints will Focus, which will make them hard to kill. I don't see many one shots from Fat Han. Remember that one blank is always turned into an evade, even with Gunner. I see one or two hits getting through, but not 3 on a regular basis. The other Ints and Decimator can wear the Falcon down.

Personally, it seems you have written many of the recent new stuff off without even seeing them on the table first. People are inventive and you could be surprised by what people can come up with.

But I have no issue waiting a month or two until wave 6 hits and showing you why this is still an issue. I said the same thing about fat Han last February when c3po and z95s where only previewed how this list was broken and people said it was only an option and wasn't going to have that big an impact on the meta. So far I still don't see this build being taken down it's pedestal yet.

But you are right in order to kill a fat falcon list you need enough atk die and a ship that's not going to die in the first volley. It might be a scum fire spray and mini swarm but I still don't see it yet.

Second you didn't include a focus token in the first volley, which you take nearly every time, but include it on your push the limit interceptor.

Aren't Fat Hans usually using their action to Evade or Boost instead of Focusing?

I didn't drop Lukeand predator. That i didn't write it was because i found it irrelevant. But they are TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT in the results. I just said Focused Han, as Han + Predator + Luke that we had been speaking about used Focus action, instead of the obvious Evade or Engine upgrade that are way more prevalent.

Do i really need to write "Han + predator + Focus + Luke" every single time when we had been an entire page talking about Han + Predator + Luke ? Do you really need the clarification ?

But I have no issue waiting a month or two until wave 6 hits and showing you why this is still an issue. I said the same thing about fat Han last February when c3po and z95s where only previewed how this list was broken and people said it was only an option and wasn't going to have that big an impact on the meta. So far I still don't see this build being taken down it's pedestal yet.

But you are right in order to kill a fat falcon list you need enough atk die and a ship that's not going to die in the first volley. It might be a scum fire spray and mini swarm but I still don't see it yet.

That's cool. Time will tell. I know that Fat Han is broken and I'm hoping we see enough come out to change it. I'm hoping that enough people get bored with it and that there are enough crazy lists that will just deal with Fat Hans that we see less of them at the top tables.

Second you didn't include a focus token in the first volley, which you take nearly every time, but include it on your push the limit interceptor.

Aren't Fat Hans usually using their action to Evade or Boost instead of Focusing?

Lol. Han is no where near broken. Very strong, yes.

I didn't drop Lukeand predator. That i didn't write it was because i found it irrelevant. But they are TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT in the results. I just said Focused Han, as Han + Predator + Luke that we had been speaking about used Focus action, instead of the obvious Evade or Engine upgrade that are way more prevalent.

Do i really need to write "Han + predator + Focus + Luke" every single time when we had been an entire page talking about Han + Predator + Luke ? Do you really need the clarification ?

No but your numbers are completely off if your saying a fat Han is rolling 0 hits 28% of the time.

Ok, now i understand you. You are not understanding what i wrote.

Fat Han is not rolling 0 hits. Is Fat han getting 0 hits through tokens + agility dice of the interceptor. It's the end result what i am posting there, while the first scenario on a vacuum was represented showing the direct results withouth any agility/token of the defender interaction.

If you read carefully you will see that the first attack of Fat Han + Predator + Luke withouth focus action has a 2% chance of 0 hits, while Luke + Predator + Han has a 0% of 0 hits (it's not exactly zero, but very very very unlikely to miss completely).

But then you have to take into account the defense of interceptor.

If Han rolls 3 hits, and i get 3 evades. And he rolls again, gets 3 hits, and i get 1 evade + 1 focus and use the evade token, you would get 0 hits. And the chances of that happening (not exactly the same scenario, but different iterations with the same end result, since you are being so literal i felt like i need to clarify even this) are 28% (around) withouth autothrusters. It's unlikely, but it happens.

Hope it is more clear for you now.

Lol. Han is no where near broken. Very strong, yes.

But you are sorta correct it's not that the falcon itself is broken (even though turrets sorta break the strategy of maneuvering in the game) it's the fat falcon list is broken in the current meta. With no upgrades falcon vs decimator the decimator would win. However you place crew on the falcon that get better the longer the ship survives and you have a highly efficient ship. The chewie crew card was considered a good value because it gave you basically 2 shield for 4 points. However c3p0 gave you the likely possibility for much more for less points. His value only increases the longer the falcon survives. Add in r2d2 or lando and reliably add more the longer your ship survives. Furthermore the way modified wins work having the majority of your points out into a ship that's hard to kill makes it more likely to win w a fat falcon list. But seriously the falcon is overpowered. We haven't seen a list this dominant in the meta since wave 1-2 when tie swarms were 70% of the lists you would see. And ffg spent the next 3-4 waves beating that horse into the ground.

Dominant does not mean broken.

As for getting help from the scoring, I think the switch to Margin of Victory helps the Falcon more than the change to Full Victories.

@gungo: What about Flachette Cannons? If you have two of them in a list vs. Fat Han, it will have a bad day. Both YT have limited green manuevers. If you know where they are going to be, it makes it easier to kill them. You can set up a bump, as well. Without their actions each turn, they are a lot easier to take out. So, you know where he's going to be and set things up to kill him. There isn't a lot of defense against this other than not getting hit.

@gungo: What about Flachette Cannons? If you have two of them in a list vs. Fat Han, it will have a bad day. Both YT have limited green manuevers. If you know where they are going to be, it makes it easier to kill them. You can set up a bump, as well. Without their actions each turn, they are a lot easier to take out. So, you know where he's going to be and set things up to kill him. There isn't a lot of defense against this other than not getting hit.

Is the second Flechette Cannon there in case the first one misses, gets destroyed, or doesn't have the Falcon in arc?

Both?

@gungo: What about Flachette Cannons? If you have two of them in a list vs. Fat Han, it will have a bad day. Both YT have limited green manuevers. If you know where they are going to be, it makes it easier to kill them. You can set up a bump, as well. Without their actions each turn, they are a lot easier to take out. So, you know where he's going to be and set things up to kill him. There isn't a lot of defense against this other than not getting hit.

Is it the fact it can evade or boost?

Or is it the fact it has a 360 degree 3 atk turret that doesn't really need an action (with Han reroll and gunner/Luke) to be effective?

I'd take a bump and lose an action if that means you can't shoot the falcon with 3 red dice. Im sure somewhere in my 360 degree arc someone is in range and if not then I'm not taking damage that turn regardless. A bump means I traded 1 evade token for you not firing at me with 3 or more atk die at range 1. How is that better for my opponent?

Boost is great to make the falcon more manuerable and gives it the ability to get out of firing ranges sometimes. Evade makes it last longer and REALLY hard to kill when you are down on numbers later in the game. Neither of those are going to neuter the falcon. In order to kill a falcon you need to throw enough dice quickly enough at it. IMHO that's not happening until we see a 4 ship list throwing out 12-15 red die and able to reliably live through a round of fat falcon and friends each turn. When this happens. You will see the falcon drop in turn 2-3. Thus making c3p0 less of a value compared to chewie and the falcon will Fall out of favor to be replaced by 4 ship lists built around stuff like meerek and 3 tempest pilots. Each with 5 hull/shields, 3 evade, 3 atk and a barrel roll each and meerek getting direct hits whenever he wants. You can even put ptl or predator on two ships in this list.

IMHO that's not happening until we see a 4 ship list throwing out 12-15 red die and able to reliably live through a round of fat falcon and friends each turn. When this happens. You will see the falcon drop in turn 2-3. Thus making c3p0 less of a value compared to chewie and the falcon will Fall out of favor to be replaced by 4 ship lists built around stuff like whisper, soontir fel and vadar/meerek Which are all really Great ships for thier price.

Serrisu

5 x Generic Scyk's w/ Mauler Cannons

5 Alpha Squadrons w/ autothrusters

4 X-wings that include Wedge

I think there are lists out there, but you just don't see them. Part of the issue is that the good players play safe and keep going with Fat Han, themselves.

Personally, I'm going to go with a 4 Tie Bomber list - "My Name is Jonus". Use missiles, torpedoes, and bombs to hit someone fast. In the last event I was in, there were a lot of big ships. Using Jonus to re-roll 2 ordnance dice can hurt a large ship fast. This is my list until the Tie Advanced fix comes out.

While 4 Tie Advanced with Auto Correctors (you can use Vader or Marek) isn't 12 damage, I think it's enough solid hits every round and good defense when you turtle to do enough damage to the Fat Han. Or:

Vader w/ ATC

Marek w/ ATC

2 x Tempest Pilots w/ AC

While 4 Tie Advanced with Auto Correctors (you can use Vader or Marek) isn't 12 damage, I think it's enough solid hits every round and good defense when you turtle to do enough damage to the Fat Han. Or:

Vader w/ ATC

Marek w/ ATC

2 x Tempest Pilots w/ AC

Accuracy Corrector should count for 3 dice if we're just talking about the number of dice being thrown in a round without worrying if they are hits or not. That list should be pumping out 8-10 hit results each round assuming they all get a shot.

While 4 Tie Advanced with Auto Correctors (you can use Vader or Marek) isn't 12 damage, I think it's enough solid hits every round and good defense when you turtle to do enough damage to the Fat Han. Or:

Vader w/ ATC

Marek w/ ATC

2 x Tempest Pilots w/ AC

Accuracy Corrector should count for 3 dice if we're just talking about the number of dice being thrown in a round without worrying if they are hits or not. That list should be pumping out 8-10 hit results each round assuming they all get a shot.

Han will fly circles around everyone but Vader in this list.

I'm not sure if I agree with that. Don't forget that these guys can K-turn and not need the action to affect their fire. I think with Barrel Rolls and smart playing, it can do well. Don't forget that it only takes a few rounds of fire to kill the Falcon.

Serrisu

5 x Generic Scyk's w/ Mauler Cannons

5 Alpha Squadrons w/ autothrusters

4 X-wings that include Wedge

I think there are lists out there, but you just don't see them. Part of the issue is that the good players play safe and keep going with Fat Han, themselves.

Aren't TIE phantoms the reason you don't see these lists? Yeah, they can really stick it to the YT's, but they'd get flanked and fried by phantom fire. The more I look at the state of the meta, the more I am convinced that phantoms have rocked the boat a bit too much. Which is why I LOVE Decimators - adding a 3 point upgrade in the form of Rebel Captive let's me shut down that ship, and I can spend the other 55 points designing my squad to be strong against other ships.

IMHO that's not happening until we see a 4 ship list throwing out 12-15 red die and able to reliably live through a round of fat falcon and friends each turn. When this happens. You will see the falcon drop in turn 2-3. Thus making c3p0 less of a value compared to chewie and the falcon will Fall out of favor to be replaced by 4 ship lists built around stuff like whisper, soontir fel and vadar/meerek Which are all really Great ships for thier price.

Serrisu

5 x Generic Scyk's w/ Mauler Cannons

5 Alpha Squadrons w/ autothrusters

4 X-wings that include Wedge

I think there are lists out there, but you just don't see them. Part of the issue is that the good players play safe and keep going with Fat Han, themselves.

Personally, I'm going to go with a 4 Tie Bomber list - "My Name is Jonus". Use missiles, torpedoes, and bombs to hit someone fast. In the last event I was in, there were a lot of big ships. Using Jonus to re-roll 2 ordnance dice can hurt a large ship fast. This is my list until the Tie Advanced fix comes out.

While 4 Tie Advanced with Auto Correctors (you can use Vader or Marek) isn't 12 damage, I think it's enough solid hits every round and good defense when you turtle to do enough damage to the Fat Han. Or:

Vader w/ ATC

Marek w/ ATC

2 x Tempest Pilots w/ AC

The closest list I see to dismantling the falcon is the tie adv fix. Each ship has 5 hull/shields and 3 evade die making them highly unlikely to get killed in one round. With the fix title and adv targeter 3 tempests and meerek equals 12 red die. 4 of them garaunteedd crits. With meerek more then likely making his crit either a double hit (or reducing the Falcons primary atk by 1 or reducing its agility by 1 any of which is a huge hit to the falcon). Is that enough to take out a fat falcon in 2-3 turns maybe it honestly depends if the person flying the falcon outflies you. The other thing that makes this list good is that you have barrel roll and evade as default actions and have 6 points to play with depending on what the other named pilots abilities are.

IMHO that's not happening until we see a 4 ship list throwing out 12-15 red die and able to reliably live through a round of fat falcon and friends each turn. When this happens. You will see the falcon drop in turn 2-3. Thus making c3p0 less of a value compared to chewie and the falcon will Fall out of favor to be replaced by 4 ship lists built around stuff like whisper, soontir fel and vadar/meerek Which are all really Great ships for thier price.

Serrisu

5 x Generic Scyk's w/ Mauler Cannons

5 Alpha Squadrons w/ autothrusters

4 X-wings that include Wedge

I think there are lists out there, but you just don't see them. Part of the issue is that the good players play safe and keep going with Fat Han, themselves.

Personally, I'm going to go with a 4 Tie Bomber list - "My Name is Jonus". Use missiles, torpedoes, and bombs to hit someone fast. In the last event I was in, there were a lot of big ships. Using Jonus to re-roll 2 ordnance dice can hurt a large ship fast. This is my list until the Tie Advanced fix comes out.

While 4 Tie Advanced with Auto Correctors (you can use Vader or Marek) isn't 12 damage, I think it's enough solid hits every round and good defense when you turtle to do enough damage to the Fat Han. Or:

Vader w/ ATC

Marek w/ ATC

2 x Tempest Pilots w/ AC

The problem with interceptors xwings and syks is that while they reliably throw out 12 damage they die easily. Either to one shots or finished off by the Falcons mini swarm. Once they start dropping your damage goes down quickly and your flying a game of attrition where the falcon is built to win. All the ships you mention have a combination of 4 hull/shields and 2 evade or 3 hull/shields and 3 evade.

The closest list I see to dismantling the falcon is the tie adv fix. Each ship has 5 hull/shields and 3 evade die making them highly unlikely to get killed in one round. With the fix title and adv targeter 3 tempests and meerek equals 12 red die. 4 of them garaunteedd crits. With meerek more then likely making his crit either a double hit (or reducing the Falcons primary atk by 1 or reducing its agility by 1 any of which is a huge hit to the falcon). Is that enough to take out a fat falcon maybe. The other thing that makes this list good is that you have barrel roll and evade as default actions and have 6 points to play with depending on what the other named pilots abilities are.

i wouldnt be surprised if Carnor makes a return wih Autothrusters.If you can get him in range1 of Han (possibly with VI) it should help alot.

The Scyks with Serrisu might surprise you. Each attack gets to re-roll an evade die. If you go with a Focus action, there is a greater chance that you survive the shots. 3 green dice + re-roll & Focus can avoid a lot of damage. What is going to be the supporting ships for the Falcon? Z-95's? That's still 3 dice + re-roll on each attack.

The Scyks with Serrisu might surprise you. Each attack gets to re-roll an evade die. If you go with a Focus action, there is a greater chance that you survive the shots. 3 green dice + re-roll & Focus can avoid a lot of damage. What is going to be the supporting ships for the Falcon? Z-95's? That's still 3 dice + re-roll on each attack.