This was brought up in the last "Phantom is OP" thread and it was pointed out that it is not true.

But if ACD is no big deal on Sigma, Shadow, or even Echo, then is not the problem actually VI?

Well, look at it this way, what is stronger, Whisper with VI but no ACD, or Whisper with ACD but no VI?

Whisper with VI but no ACD is either a glass cannon ship with hyper offense but the durability of a Z-95, or an ineffecient ship that can only shoot every other turn. If it wants to have the super repositioning, it needs to give up shooting for the turn prior.

Whisper with ACD but no VI is hyper maneuverable every turn and gets to keep it's 4 agility every turn, but only against ships that are PS 7 or lower.

I think the first option is way weaker than the second, but I actually like the second option because it means PS 8 and higher actually matter and just hoses generic pilots, which was supposed to be the Phantom's original purpose.

(Disclaimer: I don't think FFG is going to ban anything, this is purely hypothetical) But the problem comes when you actually try to fix the problem. What is worse, banning VI or banning ACD? Banning VI hurts a lot of ships other than the Phantom, while ACD is a Phantom exclusive. You could ban VI on the Phantom only, but that is kind of clunky. Although I guess banning anything is pretty clunky.

To be honest. I would not be afraid of either. I also do not see how a lack of VI would actively harm ships. If they are on a level playing field when everyone has it, then then it should remain level if nobody has it.

ACD does make a Phantom very powerful, but it can be a great challenge to find ways to fight it. Stress is the phantom's bane. It can't recloak using ACD if it is stressed. A flechette torpedo will always stress a phantom since it hull value is 2. Even if it misses.

Of course turrets ships with a higher PS can put it in its place. Especially an ion turret.

No phantoms don't need to be nerfed

The sky was falling with the B-wings too
And before that with the original Falcon

Game ain't broken
People just aren't used to flying against them enough to understand how they work

Once you realize how a ship flies it becomes a lot less threatening
Even our favorite Whisper VI ACD combo can be stopped when you realize how it flies

Hell I took out a list like that with 2 E-wings
Don't worry just learn more about its actual advantages and limitations, fly it a couple times, and understand its shortcomings to know how to fly against it.

Phantoms Falcons and Swarms being the unbeatable 3 ain't nothing but a ghost story.
What makes them powerful are the people flying them and people make mistakes

Ok. Once again. For Average Boss and those who keep saying that frank and alex never said the phantom should be attack 3.

http://teamcovenant.com/scumandvillainy/2014/11/26/scum-villainy-interview-with-x-wings-designers/

Listen from the 30 minute mark to the 42 minute mark, at the 36 minute mark they talk about how it is not a video game so patches cannot be used to fix issues and they won't use errata to fix them either. Then one of the pod members states "So I guess this means we will never see a errata stating that the phantom is attack 3"

Alex says 'To decrease the phantom to attack 3 is not going to happen, because it would require a reprint of cards and models and they are not going to do it.

Which means they agree it should be a 3, but they can do nothing about it.

So yes they do admit they would like it to be attack 3, but they say that it cannot happen because of logistics. And they hate errata. If you read between the lines from what they say it's obvious they agree it should be attack 3. If he didn't think so, why did he not protest

Also, they agree the cloak mechanic was something they worked on alot and they were close to happy with how it came out in the end, but that obviously Advanced cloaking device was a great buy, and much cheaper then stealth. Which means it is undercosted in their eyes.

They also admit the X-wing needs help a little bit outclassed and under powered, the generics.

Ok. Once again. For Average Boss and those who keep saying that frank and alex never said the phantom should be attack 3.

http://teamcovenant.com/scumandvillainy/2014/11/26/scum-villainy-interview-with-x-wings-designers/

Listen from the 30 minute mark to the 42 minute mark, at the 36 minute mark they talk about how it is not a video game so patches cannot be used to fix issues and they won't use errata to fix them either. Then one of the pod members states "So I guess this means we will never see a errata stating that the phantom is attack 3"

Alex says 'To decrease the phantom to attack 3 is not going to happen, because it would require a reprint of cards and models and they are not going to do it.

Which means they agree it should be a 3, but they can do nothing about it.

So yes they do admit they would like it to be attack 3, but they say that it cannot happen because of logistics. And they hate errata. If you read between the lines from what they say it's obvious they agree it should be attack 3. If he didn't think so, why did he not protest

Also, they agree the cloak mechanic was something they worked on alot and they were close to happy with how it came out in the end, but that obviously Advanced cloaking device was a great buy, and much cheaper then stealth. Which means it is undercosted in their eyes.

They also admit the X-wing needs help a little bit outclassed and under powered, the generics.

Yeah, I don't agree with that interpretation. He merely commented on the possibility on what the interviewer brought up, not commenting on whether or not is should've had 3 Atk or not. You are hearing what you want to hear.

My absolutely personal opinion about it is that i would rather not have the Phantom with such a cloaking mechanic and the ACD in combination. It's frustrating to fly against because in a lot of cases you just can't do anything no matter what maneuver you do. It is gonna arc-dodge you.

Kind of what I tried to suggest would have been an acceptable alternative in the OP, unfortunately it was a bad idea as it seemed to come out as though I was suggesting a possible fix, which was not what was intended at all.

As it stands, I think the Phantom is fine as is ~BUT~ that it has set a dangerous precedent in how much a single action can influence not just the a match but the entire game. It may have been done for a particular reason in the instance of the Phantom - and may have been intended to promote the use of high PS and turrets - but I certainly wouldn't want to see multiple effect mechanics like cloaking become a norm with new releases.

Gek, I'm stunned you would start this type of thread, I like how you glassed it over to make it less obvious, that you think there is a problem

I don't think there is a problem with the Phantom, however I think a problem arose with the way people reacted and responded to it - that's changed a bit over time and people are starting to worry about it less (especially now the Outrider and Decimator are things), but yeah - the release of the Phantom overshadowed everything else in Wave 4 including the potential of the Z-95. As I said above, I wouldn't like to see the entire game being so heavily influenced by a single release become the norm (that's the way GW operates).

No phantoms don't need to be nerfed

The sky was falling with the B-wings too

And before that with the original Falcon... yadayadablahblah

Not what this thread is about, and never was. Try and keep up with the conversation before commenting old bean.

I love the Phantom. It is super fun and a challenge to fly at first. Having played it a lot I find that it is not too hard to counter if you understand how it moves.

I think that Fat Han and Super Dash are much more difficult to counter.

One good hit on a Phantom and its day is over. The Meta in my area makes it hard to run a Phantom and I learned to play it in an environment that made me learn to fly cautiously and pick my spots.

I also learned how to place adteroids to maximize my build, for or against the Phantom.

Id rather fight a phantom all day than go up against Han with C3PO.

I could be wrong here but I think most people are just too lazy to try to figure out how to defeat a phantom.

No i don't think it's too hard to counter, period. i just think it's too hard to counter if you do not especially counter it with your list design. Against someone who really knows what he is doing, you are not going to block decloaks a lot and will get arc-dodged for 80% of your shots. And that's if you make no mistakes. With Echo it's of course even worse.

I mean you can have bad matchups with every list, but if you do nothing against Phantoms in your listbuilding your chances while encountering one are going towards zero, barring big mistakes by the player or all blank green dice at least 2 times. While you can handle othet bad matchups by stepping up your play or a little luck, this one requires mistakes by the adversary and/or huge luck. This is something i don't want to rely on.

I also won't forget that the Phantom ruined the release of the Defender and E-Wing in my opinion. Two ships i had much anticipated, yet could not fully appreciate because of the very obvious strength of the Phantom and its mechanics, while also priced a lot more competitive at the same time. And that by a ship that is just a footnote in fluff.

I agree about the Defender. People would be loving the ship if it weren't overshadowed by the Phantom. I think we will see more Defenders with those awesome Cannons that are coming out in Scum. I can even see generics being played with those.

Hey, Tie Advanced with Tie Defenders can be a thing now. There will be a lot of TL's going on with the Advanced Targeting Computer, too. Col. Vessery will be friends with Marek Steele and Vader.

Hey, Tie Advanced with Tie Defenders can be a thing now. There will be a lot of TL's going on with the Advanced Targeting Computer, too. Col. Vessery will be friends with Marek Steele and Vader.

Indeed. Defenders and Advanced will be an interesting combo.

I love the Phantom. It is super fun and a challenge to fly at first. Having played it a lot I find that it is not too hard to counter if you understand how it moves... I could be wrong here but I think most people are just too lazy to try to figure out how to defeat a phantom.

Which means they agree it should be a 3, but they can do nothing about it.

No it doesn't, as Sithborg pointed out, that is your interpretation and the plain statement does not back up your interpretation at all.

The cost of running a phantom is to deck one out normally costs you a third to almost half your build list and it is still a ship that can be one shotted under the right circumstances.

Hey, Tie Advanced with Tie Defenders can be a thing now. There will be a lot of TL's going on with the Advanced Targeting Computer, too. Col. Vessery will be friends with Marek Steele and Vader.

Indeed. Defenders and Advanced will be an interesting combo.

Vessery was already the only slightly viable Defender. There isn't anything on the horizon that is all of a sudden make the Defender competitive. The new cannons will be 'meh' on the Defender.

I actually find the base defender works better than most of the named defenders do.

Vessery was already the only slightly viable Defender. There isn't anything on the horizon that is all of a sudden make the Defender competitive. The new cannons will be 'meh' on the Defender.

Oh look, someone else who doesn't know what do do with the Defender! Hai there!

HWK and Firespray becoming top tier (I won't say too good) is actually a possibility with Scum on the horizon, the buffs to these 2 craft look really, really nice.

Outer Rim Smuggler is a bit of a stretch...

HWK and Firespray becoming top tier (I won't say too good) is actually a possibility with Scum on the horizon, the buffs to these 2 craft look really, really nice.

Outer Rim Smuggler is a bit of a stretch...

I've played about 15 games with a dual firespray list I've been playing for months with the new scum boba & kath. They are MUCH better than the imperial versions. I think I like Kath best, it's like being a phantom shooting with the rear arc. Boba's ability is nice as well, but I have really poor luck with it when re-rolling green dice.

I wish I could replay losses I had with the imp version to see if the new abilities would have gotten me the win in any of them. I bet it would have for some at least.

There is a simple way to answer this:

Using Points:

6 Headhunters 72 pts.

1 Phantom 35-42 points

Who are you more afraid of?

I have seen 1 Whisper take down 6 headhunters without breaking a sweat many times. In game balance should this be?especially with the points difference. We all know it shouldn't, but we know it is.

I challenge you to take any other 42 point ship or less and fight 6 headhunters, without so much as breaking a sweat.

That answers your question.

There is a simple way to answer this:

Using Points:

6 Headhunters 72 pts.

1 Phantom 35-42 points

Who are you more afraid of?

I have seen 1 Whisper take down 6 headhunters without breaking a sweat many times. In game balance should this be?especially with the points difference. We all know it shouldn't, but we know it is.

I challenge you to take any other 42 point ship or less and fight 6 headhunters, without so much as breaking a sweat.

That answers your question.

Without seeing the game, I can't really say. I've seen Fel kill over twice his value before. Does that mean Fel is a problem?

There is a simple way to answer this:

Using Points:

6 Headhunters 72 pts.

1 Phantom 35-42 points

Who are you more afraid of?

I have seen 1 Whisper take down 6 headhunters without breaking a sweat many times. In game balance should this be?especially with the points difference. We all know it shouldn't, but we know it is.

I challenge you to take any other 42 point ship or less and fight 6 headhunters, without so much as breaking a sweat.

That answers your question.

Without seeing the game, I can't really say. I've seen Fel kill over twice his value before. Does that mean Fel is a problem?

No. But not without breaking a sweat. I have seen many players surrender with the loss of one ship early (their phantom Hunter), this never happened much previously, because you always felt like you had a chance. Now they quit because even though they outnumber and out points the phantom by a large majority they feel it's hopeless to play for an hour knowing that they cannot win. They would rather restart and play again.

This is not good for the game, and everyone knows it.

FFG will give us some counter to the phantom, but we just have to wait. Remember the OP question here is does the Cloak ability do too much. So the from my stats and everyone else who is truthful about it, the Answer is 'Yes'

On that note, I have now been to two tournaments where the phantom was banned, but it is clearly stated before hand. I have also been to 3 tournaments that clearly stated the Phantom is not banned ,but that it has Attack 3.

The communities are showing that the Phantom and cloak ability is overpowered. FFG will take notice and fix it.

Because if they don't then you now have a GW issue with the Game. People will start making their own rules and their own tournaments. It's already started with Phantoms. GW's stubbornness to admit anything was wrong is what made them fail. Hopefully FFG won't go down the same road with X-wing. So far they have done a good job fixing issues, and hopefully they'll keep it up.

There is already plenty of counter to phantom. Any PS9+ can kill it easy. Ruthlessness can kill it too. Ouicunn ramming into it too. Proximity Mine dropped right onto it will hurt it bad. Soon Feedback Array will be very dangerous for it. Rebel Captive prevent recloaking, making it easy prey. A swarm will block decloaking, preventing it to attack.

eagletsi111,

I'm not wanting to derail the thread, but in what way has GW failed? They are still the dominant wargames company.

Back on the original topic, I'd say yes the action is a little too efficient, but I'll add the caveat that I've not got a reliable Imperial counter strategy yet. I think it's an interesting question to ask.

There is a simple way to answer this:

Using Points:

6 Headhunters 72 pts.

1 Phantom 35-42 points

Who are you more afraid of?

I have seen 1 Whisper take down 6 headhunters without breaking a sweat many times. In game balance should this be?especially with the points difference. We all know it shouldn't, but we know it is.

I challenge you to take any other 42 point ship or less and fight 6 headhunters, without so much as breaking a sweat.

That answers your question.

Without seeing the game, I can't really say. I've seen Fel kill over twice his value before. Does that mean Fel is a problem?

No. But not without breaking a sweat. I have seen many players surrender with the loss of one ship early (their phantom Hunter), this never happened much previously, because you always felt like you had a chance. Now they quit because even though they outnumber and out points the phantom by a large majority they feel it's hopeless to play for an hour knowing that they cannot win. They would rather restart and play again.

This is not good for the game, and everyone knows it.

FFG will give us some counter to the phantom, but we just have to wait. Remember the OP question here is does the Cloak ability do too much. So the from my stats and everyone else who is truthful about it, the Answer is 'Yes'

On that note, I have now been to two tournaments where the phantom was banned, but it is clearly stated before hand. I have also been to 3 tournaments that clearly stated the Phantom is not banned ,but that it has Attack 3.

The communities are showing that the Phantom and cloak ability is overpowered. FFG will take notice and fix it.

Because if they don't then you now have a GW issue with the Game. People will start making their own rules and their own tournaments. It's already started with Phantoms. GW's stubbornness to admit anything was wrong is what made them fail. Hopefully FFG won't go down the same road with X-wing. So far they have done a good job fixing issues, and hopefully they'll keep it up.

Does your group ban HLC as well?

I don't even fly phatoms but I'm glad I'm not in your area where the TO's ban things on there own free will. Your small community does not represent the majority I feel.