I've never been on the side that thinks the Phantom is this over barring monster some think it is (or was). The truth is the ship comes at a cost and can be defended against hence the Fat Hans we see all over the passing meta. I say passing meta since we already have the wave 5 ships stirring the pot and soon the Scum and Villainy will make a real mess of things. If we see the Phantom holding the top notch spot at tourneys after the Scum come out then we can have a discussion on what needs to be done. Until then we are wasting our time.

You can't deem a conversation a waste of time just because new stuff is coming out sometime in the near future, there's always new stuff coming out for x-wing in the near but vaguely defined future. Nobody even knows when Scum is going to be available, it could be available in January or March for all we know based on what "on the boat" has meant for past X-Wing expansions.

When everyone is talking about the Wave 6 meta, will that be a waste of time because of the imminent release of the Raider?

by all means debate this subject again, and again and again and again and again. I'm sure you'll find the answer this time.

It's not about finding an answer, it's about learning from the journey. Talking about something can give us insight into that thing, even if the thing we are talking about doesn't change.

I'm actually grateful the OP made this post because it got me thinking about what the Cloaking action really does for a ship, and why the Phantom is so good in this game. It's not because the Cloak action is too good, it's because the ACD upgrade removes the Cloak action's weaknesses for too low of a cost.

@Keffisch

- If you don't have a ship in your arc, just re-cloak or don't decloak in the first place.

- It's very rare higher PS than 9, since normally it's a subpar option against lists withouth a Phantom. Certainly a weakness, specially against turrets. But then, they will suffer against other turrets with lower PS but predator and the like.

- Captive is good, but there are ways to mitigate it through list building (having a ship with equal or highger PS, or Yorr)

- There are not reliable ways to double stress a phantom. But you can use a stressbot on a Wes with EU and VI. It only costs you 36 points... for an xwing. That's basically a FCS VI ADC echo, which will be much better against other kinds of lists.

- Just stay out of range 1 of your ship ? You know your opponent's list already, and the phantom has the dial and mobility for it.

- Plenty decloak options to not get in there.

etc etc etc

Anyways, back on topic. No, FFG won't change the phantom, what we will see are improvements on other top arc dodgers to equalize or surpass it, so it doesn't become the only option. That's what autothrusters will do, and the release of the IG and Starviper.

Hmmm, maybe adding the suggestion wasn't such a good idea. I was trying to prompt debate about exactly how much the cloaking action does, at least compared to the other range of actions. Check it out:

Take a Focus Action - you potentially modify a single attack roll, or a single evade roll.

Take a Target Lock action - you can potentially modify a single attack roll, or fire ordnance.

Take an Evade action - you can ignore one hit

Boost - move 1 forward, three directions

Barrel Roll - move 1 sideways, with a choice of end locations

Compare that to cloak - double your evade dice, and super boost or barrel roll when you decloak. It seems a lot by comparison - especially when Phantoms can ALSO do regular actions in addition to cloaking with their unique upgrades.

What you need to do is actually bear in mind what cloak does.

Cloak - (action) increase your agility by 2, skip all of your attacks until decloaked.

Decloak - (not an action) when cloaked, perform a "super barrel roll" or "super (straight-only) boost" (unless blocked or ionized) before you reveal your maneuver.

At the cost of taking away your ability to attack, in a game where the offense dice have a better success rate than the defense dice, I think you ought to reconsider how useful that option is.

I stand by my previous statement: ACD, by triggering off of "after you perform an attack" and thereby cutting out the downside of "no attacks" to cloak actions, is the most compelling way to do a cloak action.

Advanced Sensors cloak + decloak should not have been ruled against. It would at least give the Phantom other instances to consistently use its unique action, and would not give Phantoms the almost-always 4 attack 4 agility that ACD does.

Coming soon to a forum near you:

"Is the Firespray OP?"

"Does the HWK need a nerf?"

"Fix the Outer Rim Smuggler FFG PLS ;_;"

Coming soon to a forum near you:

"Is the Firespray OP?"

"Does the HWK need a nerf?"

"Fix the Outer Rim Smuggler FFG PLS ;_;"

If all you're going to do is flame people, then you shouldn't post in the discussion. If the thread is hurting you, report it to a mod.

If the thread is hurting you, report it to a mod.

Sorry but...

"Show me on the doll where the thread touched you."

I agree with your overall statement, if someone doesn't like a threat they can just not read it. This has been a very civil thread and even if it doesn't accomplish much that doesn't really change the value of the discussion.

Coming soon to a forum near you:

"Is the Firespray OP?"

"Does the HWK need a nerf?"

"Fix the Outer Rim Smuggler FFG PLS ;_;"

If all you're going to do is flame people, then you shouldn't post in the discussion. If the thread is hurting you, report it to a mod.

Of course in another thread the OP mentioned the the generics x-wing (red I think) needed a little buff and by the 2nd or 3rd page some people were discussing the entire reprint of the game, X-Wing 2.0.

Maybe it was a joke or sarcasm or an honest prediction.

Phantoms while less expensive then the Defender must have upgrades on it in order for it to be useful. With exception of the 6 sigma you will probably never see a Phantom that does not have one of the cloak modification on it.

That's not to say phantoms have no exploitable weakness, many players have learned how well Han Solo is at taking care of phantoms and the quickest way to shut ACD down is to give the Phantom stress.

Phantoms while less expensive then the Defender must have upgrades on it in order for it to be useful. With exception of the 6 sigma you will probably never see a Phantom that does not have one of the cloak modification on it.

That's not to say phantoms have no exploitable weakness, many players have learned how well Han Solo is at taking care of phantoms and the quickest way to shut ACD down is to give the Phantom stress.

I think this is a great point that sums up the Cloak action pretty well. Without the action economy provided by either the ACD or the SPA, Phantoms would not be seeing high level competitive success.

If the thread is hurting you, report it to a mod.

Sorry but...

"Show me on the doll where the thread touched you."

I agree with your overall statement, if someone doesn't like a threat they can just not read it. This has been a very civil thread and even if it doesn't accomplish much that doesn't really change the value of the discussion.

The reason I threw that in there is because what I think this person was trying to say was

"I don't like this discussion, talking about making changes to game mechanics makes me uncomfortable and I don't think any of you should be talking about it because it's not going to change anything anyway so I want this discussion to end."

and instead could only mock the thread and its participants. I see this a lot with young children and bullies that have a hard time expressing themselves, so instead they resort to nastiness or violence.

Coming soon to a forum near you:

"Is the Firespray OP?"

"Does the HWK need a nerf?"

"Fix the Outer Rim Smuggler FFG PLS ;_;"

If all you're going to do is flame people, then you shouldn't post in the discussion. If the thread is hurting you, report it to a mod.

Of course in another thread the OP mentioned the the generics x-wing (red I think) needed a little buff and by the 2nd or 3rd page some people were discussing the entire reprint of the game, X-Wing 2.0.

Maybe it was a joke or sarcasm or an honest prediction.

All of the above.

To contribute more seriously to the discussion;

I think the Phantom is an open and shut case of great design. It was built from the ground up to induce dramatic shifts in the metagame, and that's just what it did. Yet it isn't a dominant force. The wave 4 metagame was pretty painful, but with wave 5 finally here we are seeing great diversity.

Edit:

@tv

I apologize for hurting your feelings.

Always love this topic. Think the real "problem" is finally being pointed at. ACD not the Phantom. But in reality its a build Whisper +VI+ACD that is as "broken" as the Fat Han. Did Fat Han come about because of the Phantom? No, it came about because the cards were there to make it.

The nice part is the shinny has worn of Whisper and new ships have come out. Plus I think we all have a better feel for Stress and Ion than before.

@Introverdant: Thank you for adding something to the conversation. It's not my thread, so you didn't hurt my feelings by flaming, but posts like that hurt the community so I decided to take a stand. It's the opposite of "Fly Casual" that everyone here seems to love talking about.

At no point did I flame anything or anyone.

Always love this topic. Think the real "problem" is finally being pointed at. ACD not the Phantom. But in reality its a build Whisper +VI+ACD that is as "broken" as the Fat Han. Did Fat Han come about because of the Phantom? No, it came about because the cards were there to make it.

The nice part is the shinny has worn of Whisper and new ships have come out. Plus I think we all have a better feel for Stress and Ion than before.

From what I've heard from the guys on Nova Squadron podcast, the Fat Han build wasn't that great until the Phantom was released because pre-Wave 4 meta was still very swarm heavy.

Coming soon to a forum near you:

"Is the Firespray OP?"

"Does the HWK need a nerf?"

"Fix the Outer Rim Smuggler FFG PLS ;_;"

If all you're going to do is flame people, then you shouldn't post in the discussion. If the thread is hurting you, report it to a mod.

I think FFG could not do anything but some mechanic like this one to bring high PS back to the tabletop. It could have gone a bit over the top admittedly. Nothing defined viable lists like Phantoms. Either you counter them, or you lose if you meet them.bit's too much black or white for what i like.

The bad thing about this is that competitive or casual play, Phantoms are either untouchable or if countered, useless. This is not a "fun" mechanic i believe. Sadly i t's there to stay and FFG probably also messed up the cost of Phantoms plus ACD a bit. It's actually true that it mostly IS Stealth plus ACD and not Stealth alone where the problem lies.

Now i don't see any way to change it back realistically seen. The only thing to do is to bring more and cheaper counters to the Phantom, not always consisting in having more PS than the Phantom, so the people playing them will just get disgusted by being stomped repeatedly. This is necessary. Trust me i had people i play regularly that were obsessed with Phantoms so i had to continuously pick hard counters to them. Until they understood that if they ruin my fun by using them, i will ruin their fun by instakilling them! That's when our lists became more diverse again and the fun came back to the game for everyone.

The Phantom needs to stay what it is though. Because whenever people will go back to a low ps no upgrades meta, it will be there to make them think twice. So while i don't particularly enjoy playing with or against Phantoms, they are a necessary factor to this game now.

So i am sorry to not be able to theorize a perfect solution to make the Phantom stay what it is but make it less frustrating and impossible to beat while playing no counters. But i know if soneone finds a good proposition it should probably go in the direction not to destroy Phantoms as a swarm counter!

I thibk your not understanding the idea of how cloaking works

A ship cloaks we do not know where it is.

So when decloaking the decloak phase is to show its position.

We have an idea of where it's at, but not sure where.

So when a Phantom decloaks it's more or less close to its last known position.

I mean with what your suggesting, what's the point of cloak?

When a ship is cloaked we are not suppose to know where it is at.

Which is why it's agility doubles.

Your shooting blind hoping to score a hit

But if ACD is no big deal on Sigma, Shadow, or even Echo, then is not the problem actually VI?

But if ACD is no big deal on Sigma, Shadow, or even Echo, then is not the problem actually VI?

We had a huge thread about this... Go find it XD!

Oh sweet baby Jesus

But if ACD is no big deal on Sigma, Shadow, or even Echo, then is not the problem actually VI?

Well, look at it this way, what is stronger, Whisper with VI but no ACD, or Whisper with ACD but no VI?

Whisper with VI but no ACD is either a glass cannon ship with hyper offense but the durability of a Z-95, or an ineffecient ship that can only shoot every other turn. If it wants to have the super repositioning, it needs to give up shooting for the turn prior.

Whisper with ACD but no VI is hyper maneuverable every turn and gets to keep it's 4 agility every turn, but only against ships that are PS 7 or lower.

I think the first option is way weaker than the second, but I actually like the second option because it means PS 8 and higher actually matter and just hoses generic pilots, which was supposed to be the Phantom's original purpose.

(Disclaimer: I don't think FFG is going to ban anything, this is purely hypothetical) But the problem comes when you actually try to fix the problem. What is worse, banning VI or banning ACD? Banning VI hurts a lot of ships other than the Phantom, while ACD is a Phantom exclusive. You could ban VI on the Phantom only, but that is kind of clunky. Although I guess banning anything is pretty clunky.

Nevermind, some people don't even read the OP's post before venting the hot air from their cranial cavity!

It would probably have helped if I'd articulated the OP a bit better in the first place, to be honest.

My major question with this thread isn't "are Phantoms overpowered" or "should Phantoms be nerfed" (no to both, by the way, but:

Does the Cloaking action do too much?

It is (by necessity, I guess) a much more complex mechanic than any other action in the game, and ther benefits it gives the controlling player (double agility dice while cloaked, but more importantly the super arc dodge) most likely make it the single most powerful ability in the game as well.

Agreed - it pushed the meta back up towards high PS builds, but also towards turret builds - and even with Wave 5 adding two new turretted ships to the game, I'm not 100% sure that was the intent.

In any case, with the benefit of hindsight - would people be happy to see a similar very powerful ability that affects multiple phases of the game introduced for the benefit of one specific ship only in a future release? Or do we take this as a one off?

To help clear up for anyone new reading cloaking doesn't double you agility it adds 2 to it.

Carry on.

Nevermind, some people don't even read the OP's post before venting the hot air from their cranial cavity!

It would probably have helped if I'd articulated the OP a bit better in the first place, to be honest.

My major question with this thread isn't "are Phantoms overpowered" or "should Phantoms be nerfed" (no to both, by the way, but:

Does the Cloaking action do too much?

It is (by necessity, I guess) a much more complex mechanic than any other action in the game, and ther benefits it gives the controlling player (double agility dice while cloaked, but more importantly the super arc dodge) most likely make it the single most powerful ability in the game as well.

Agreed - it pushed the meta back up towards high PS builds, but also towards turret builds - and even with Wave 5 adding two new turretted ships to the game, I'm not 100% sure that was the intent.

In any case, with the benefit of hindsight - would people be happy to see a similar very powerful ability that affects multiple phases of the game introduced for the benefit of one specific ship only in a future release? Or do we take this as a one off?

I also won't forget that the Phantom ruined the release of the Defender and E-Wing in my opinion. Two ships i had much anticipated, yet could not fully appreciate because of the very obvious strength of the Phantom and its mechanics, while also priced a lot more competitive at the same time. And that by a ship that is just a footnote in fluff.

All this is of course just my two cents and can be discarded as a purely subjective view. But if asked this way, i felt compelled to give my opinion about it.

I just respect the Phantom as the ship that brought named pilots back to the game, that's it.

Another question came to my mind though. Will we possibly see another ship use stealth mechanics? With different modifications and no ACD of course because thats Phantom only.

StealthX anyone perhaps?

Gek,

I'm stunned you would start this type of thread, I like how you glassed it over to make it less obvious, that you think there is a problem

I totally agree the phantom itself is not bad, but the 4 attack and ACD make it over the top.

If ACD was a die roll, like roll an attack die and on a hit you can cloak after firing. That would probably balance it. Because you have times where it flies right at you knowing it can cloak after firing.

Both the designers said, "They liked the mechanic and that the 4 attack was probably over the top, but they will not fix it" As for ACD they both agreed it should have costed a few points more.

I'll bet will see some type of modification for 1 point, like Gravity Density Detector, which helps against ships that are cloaked or have Stealth Device.

1pt

When attacking a ship that is cloaked or has stealth device, subtract 1 from it's agility

But as was stated they won't fix it like GW would via Errata, so it is what it is. For right now.

Eagletsi