Has anyone said otherwise? Has MajorJuggler ever said "My stats are the absolute proof that Ship X should never been seen on a table"?
Well, he certainly seems to be deviating in that direction with his fundamentally flawed analysis of the TIE Defender.
(Which of course simply makes me doubt his sanity along with his mathematics)
No explicitly, but they are bandied about as divinely inspired scripture, laden with implicit authority.
Straight from the horses mouth,people - statistics only go so far. Let them guide your thinking by all means, but do not fixate on them.
Has anyone said otherwise? Has MajorJuggler ever said "My stats are the absolute proof that Ship X should never been seen on a table"?
MJ never has but some people take the numbers as gospel and never question them, the ships jousting value is under 100% it sucks end of thought process.
What they dont know is MJ and his evil minions feed false data so some day soon they'll win every tournament and the THE WORLD!
I have his secret plan:
1: play x-wing
2:???
3:profit.
Anything can punch above its weight when set up right, assuming your opponent lets you outmaneuver him.
Straight from the horses mouth,people - statistics only go so far, and they don't tell anywhere near the whole story. Let them guide your thinking by all means, but do not fixate on them.
This is why it is important to play test in a controlled environment, with similar caliber of players. The full logs need to be made available, and checked for statistical outliers of dice rolls. You need to do numerical analysis of the game data to record how effective each ship was vs its stat line and actual rolls. Then the players need to swap lists and play again, and repeat the analysis. Repeat this a few dozen times with similar caliber players, and you get a good database to work from.
Then you can actually talk about game balance.
Alternatively you can look at high level tournament results.
Worlds 2014 Results
MJ never has but some people take the numbers as gospel and never question them...
So there's people who read something and stop thinking. This invalidates the data just how?
I mean I don't take what he says as the final say on anything and neither does he. Anyone who does... Well they suffer accordingly.
But none of that changes the fact that there is some value in his math as a place to start with.
Anything can punch above its weight when set up right, assuming your opponent lets you outmaneuver him.
Straight from the horses mouth,people - statistics only go so far. Let them guide your thinking by all means, but do not fixate on them.
A ship can defy it's statistics through superior play, but the statistics tell us how much more difficult that will be for each ship.
You can put effort into making a Defender punch above it's cost, but the same amount of effort put into a better ship like a Phantom or Lambda will wield even better results, because those ships start closer to the baseline.
If all you care about is making the Defender get back it's points cost for you, then the mathematical value of the ship doesn't matter. But for people that want to know which ships will give back the most value for the amount of effort put into them, then the math is very useful. Players will get more value from learning how to better use a Phantom or a Lambda then they will from learning how to better use a Defender.
@OP
You do realize that you are being too black or white, right ? There can be legimitate concerns and concerns that may not be. Discussing them is far more productive than you give credit for, since it allows for data sharing. The problem comes when people try to force their view instead of keep discussing, ussually getting to ad hominems.
Edited by DreadStarI'm starting to wonder why there are so many people on this forum that hate data and statistics and feel that their own limited experience is somehow superior to data from many tournaments that include hundreds of games played at a high level. Reading these forums has started to feel like being in the presence of an actual witch hunt from the 17th century, or a Republican congressional hearing on global warming in the 1990s.
By the way, the only ship in the game that needed a real fix was the TIE Advanced. Everything else is competitive.
I'm starting to wonder why there are so many people on this forum that hate data and statistics and feel that their own limited experience is somehow superior to data from many tournaments that include hundreds of games played at a high level. Reading these forums has started to feel like being in the presence of an actual witch hunt from the 17th century, or a Republican congressional hearing on global warming in the 1990s.
I was thinking more about creationists and evolutionists discussion, but i felt bad, because it is kinda insulting. I am sure they are not actually disgregarding the data totally (or i hope so), most of them are just non tournament players that really enjoy their game and try to defend it.
Reality is that we all love the game with passion, that's why we are posting here in the first place.
Edited by DreadStarmost of them are just non tournament players that really enjoy their game and try to defend it.
MajorJugglers numbers are a place to start, always have, and always will be. He's pretty clear about that.
You can't account for things like Wedge at R1 outside a Tie Interceptors arc, so he doesn't try to. The jousting numbers are just that, what you'd get if you lined your ships up across from each other and threw dice. Anyone simpleminded enough to take that as the end all be all of X-Wing... Well I don't think we need to worry about people like that.
So if you take his numbers for what they are, they can give you an idea how good the ship is at it's most basic function and go from there.
The Interceptor doesn't score real high on the jousting numbers, because it's not intended to fly that way and anyone who tries to just run it up the center deserves what they get. But if you look at the numbers and recognize that to get the points back you have to work at it, then you're using the numbers as they are IMO intended.
I'm starting to wonder why there are so many people on this forum that hate data and statistics and feel that their own limited experience is somehow superior to data from many tournaments that include hundreds of games played at a high level. Reading these forums has started to feel like being in the presence of an actual witch hunt from the 17th century, or a Republican congressional hearing on global warming in the 1990s.
I was thinking more about creationists and evolutionists discussion, but i felt bad, because it is kinda insulting. I am sure they are not actually disgregarding the data totally (or i hope so), most of them are just non tournament players that really enjoy their game and try to defend it.
Reality is that we all love the game with passion, that's why we are posting here in the first place.
I've also noticed there are a lot of members that are completely anti-discussion, and will post in a thread just to flame the OP's thread because they personally don't like the discussion. In must forums, it is up to the moderators to decide if a thread has enough merit to continue existing, and non-moderators are discouraged from making posts about the thread or OP and calling a thread pointless or whining or a waste of time.
Even if a discussion won't change anything and might give a platform to people with wrong opinions, people can still benefit from the discussion.
I do agree Vanor. I do not know what made you think otherwise.
most of them are just non tournament players that really enjoy their game and try to defend it.
MajorJugglers numbers are a place to start, always have, and always will be. He's pretty clear about that.
You can't account for things like Wedge at R1 outside a Tie Interceptors arc, so he doesn't try to. The jousting numbers are just that, what you'd get if you lined your ships up across from each other and threw dice. Anyone simpleminded enough to take that as the end all be all of X-Wing... Well I don't think we need to worry about people like that.
So if you take his numbers for what they are, they can give you an idea how good the ship is at it's most basic function and go from there.
The Interceptor doesn't score real high on the jousting numbers, because it's not intended to fly that way and anyone who tries to just run it up the center deserves what they get. But if you look at the numbers and recognize that to get the points back you have to work at it, then you're using the numbers as they are IMO intended.
As someone who doesn't have a lot of time to try out every single ship in the game (I get to play 1 game a week if I'm lucky, I can't even play on Vassal) but wants to be relevant when I do get to play, MJ's ships values have been a really helpful tool for me to know what ships to favor and which ships to avoid when list building. I know that the ships I choose will only be as good as the work I put into them, but knowing which ships take the least amount of work to be good gives me the headstart I need to keep up with people who play this game all the time.
Yes, but no one is really claiming otherwise. It's not like anyone is saying "Ship X has a jousting value of 87.4% therefore you should never, ever use it." Because the jousting value doesn't tell the whole story.But that does not make it's value worthless to know.but their real value varies greatly depending on position and use on the board.
Maybe not you and not often so directly, but many imply that <100% jousting value is broken, uncompetitive, needs fixing, etc.
Yes, but no one is really claiming otherwise. It's not like anyone is saying "Ship X has a jousting value of 87.4% therefore you should never, ever use it." Because the jousting value doesn't tell the whole story.But that does not make it's value worthless to know.but their real value varies greatly depending on position and use on the board.
Maybe not you and not often so directly, but many imply that <100% jousting value is broken, uncompetitive, needs fixing, etc.
z0m4d i think you are pointing out to the generic Xwing discussion (correct me if i am wrong). The generic Xwing in particular has an average dial and only focus and target lock action. It's only purpose is jousting, so the numbers are actually pretty important in that ship, contrary to for example an YT1300, or as vanor pointed out, an Interceptor.
I do not know what made you think otherwise.
Sorry, I was just expounding on your post. 
I wasn't disagreeing with you.
Maybe not you and not often so directly, but many imply that <100% jousting value is broken, uncompetitive, needs fixing, etc.
Again I say so what? Just because someone can't interpret data correctly doesn't make the data invalid or not worth sharing. Anyone who posts "Ship X needs to be fixed because MajorJuggler says so" will be responded to accordingly.
I'm starting to wonder why there are so many people on this forum that hate data and statistics and feel that their own limited experience is somehow superior to data from many tournaments that include hundreds of games played at a high level. Reading these forums has started to feel like being in the presence of an actual witch hunt from the 17th century, or a Republican congressional hearing on global warming in the 1990s.
Thats a strawman no one hates the statistics we just don't think they tell the whole story, people tell us the defender cant get it's points back but we've not only seen it do that we've seen it get double its points back when equipped with a HLC.
people i play against have gone from ignoring the trip to trying to kill it first because they've seen what it does late game.
I've never not even once claimed personal experience trumps collected data, i just point out that i almost exclusively use the defender since wave four came out and i'm having zero issues winning.
people tell us the defender cant get it's points back
Who said that? Because they're wrong, the Defender can. But it does have to work harder at it then the Phantom does.
But if someone is saying it can't, I would like to see who said it and when.
I've never not even once claimed personal experience trumps collected data
There's more people claiming personal experience trumps data then there are saying that MJ's data is 100% infallible.
Dreadstar, the X-Wing discussions are just the latest of a rising trend.
VanorDM, that's what this whole thread is addressing.
VanorDM, that's what this whole thread is addressing.
Really? I haven't seen a single person here say that a Defender or any other ship can't earn it's points back.
I'm starting to wonder why there are so many people on this forum that hate data and statistics and feel that their own limited experience is somehow superior to data from many tournaments that include hundreds of games played at a high level. Reading these forums has started to feel like being in the presence of an actual witch hunt from the 17th century, or a Republican congressional hearing on global warming in the 1990s.
Thats a strawman no one hates the statistics we just don't think they tell the whole story, people tell us the defender cant get it's points back but we've not only seen it do that we've seen it get double its points back when equipped with a HLC.
people i play against have gone from ignoring the trip to trying to kill it first because they've seen what it does late game.
I've never not even once claimed personal experience trumps collected data, i just point out that i almost exclusively use the defender since wave four came out and i'm having zero issues winning.
To be fair, MJ did predict that Defenders and E-wings were overcosted and that Z-95 headhunters were a good value, when announced. The subsequent tournament results have shown that to be fairly accurate. He has also made predictions about scum ships that have not come out yet.
Wait - hold everything folks - you're saying that MJ accurately predicted that a ship which tied (pun intended) the TIE Fighter as the cheapest in the game but was much less susceptible to one hit kills would be good value? **** son, that man's a genius. Sign him up for a Nobel Bloody Prize.
As for the Defender, well, me and MJ have never seen eye to eye on that particular ship, and probably never will. He has his complex mathematical equations which don't and can't account for the white K-turn, and I have my first hand experience. I'll stick with the latter, thank y'very much.
I pulled this quote from this thread, and I see this type of mentality a lot on this forum, and the people that don't like MJ's analysis of the game are often times hostile and malicious about it, like it's a personal attack against them or something.
And saying that people are claiming the Defender can't get it's points back in a fight is also a strawman argument, because we're not saying a Defender can't get it's points back (any ship in the game can get its points back under the right circumstances), we're saying that what it brings to the table is overcosted compared to a lot of the other ships in the game.
Really? I haven't seen a single person here say that a Defender or any other ship can't earn it's points back.VanorDM, that's what this whole thread is addressing.
I haven't read exactly that either, but I have read that it's uncompetitive. It hasn't been picked on as much as others lately, though.
I'm starting to wonder why there are so many people on this forum that hate data and statistics and feel that their own limited experience is somehow superior to data from many tournaments that include hundreds of games played at a high level. Reading these forums has started to feel like being in the presence of an actual witch hunt from the 17th century, or a Republican congressional hearing on global warming in the 1990s.
Thats a strawman no one hates the statistics we just don't think they tell the whole story, people tell us the defender cant get it's points back but we've not only seen it do that we've seen it get double its points back when equipped with a HLC.
people i play against have gone from ignoring the trip to trying to kill it first because they've seen what it does late game.
I've never not even once claimed personal experience trumps collected data, i just point out that i almost exclusively use the defender since wave four came out and i'm having zero issues winning.
To be fair, MJ did predict that Defenders and E-wings were overcosted and that Z-95 headhunters were a good value, when announced. The subsequent tournament results have shown that to be fairly accurate. He has also made predictions about scum ships that have not come out yet.
Wait - hold everything folks - you're saying that MJ accurately predicted that a ship which tied (pun intended) the TIE Fighter as the cheapest in the game but was much less susceptible to one hit kills would be good value? **** son, that man's a genius. Sign him up for a Nobel Bloody Prize.
As for the Defender, well, me and MJ have never seen eye to eye on that particular ship, and probably never will. He has his complex mathematical equations which don't and can't account for the white K-turn, and I have my first hand experience. I'll stick with the latter, thank y'very much.
I pulled this quote from this thread, and I see this type of mentality a lot on this forum, and the people that don't like MJ's analysis of the game are often times hostile and malicious about it, like it's a personal attack against them or something.
And saying that people are claiming the Defender can't get it's points back in a fight is also a strawman argument, because we're not saying a Defender can't get it's points back (any ship in the game can get its points back under the right circumstances), we're saying that what it brings to the table is overcosted compared to a lot of the other ships in the game.
Lol thats not a personal attack, your new here i suspect go look up any thread made by a poster called ribean and you'll see personal attacks.
MJ is probably laughing himself silly, if you'd been around any amount of time you'd know we have no issue with each other he knows i respect his work but trust in personal skill over statistics.
And i've been arguing in favour of the defender since wave four came out in dozens upon dozens of threads i've heard alot of claims about how bad it is, i never said it was said in this thread
Not quite laughing myself silly, but its all good. :-)