The players need a`changin

The players need a`changin

You suggest the players change ... to what?

More willingness to lose in tournaments ... or in general?

For my taste the generic Defender Pilots are overcosted by about 2 points, named by 1 point, Onyx are lacking EPT.

Disagree on the Deltas & named pilots (they simply haven't been used to their full potential yet). Agree on Onyx, but that's because the White K favours the PS1 Delta, and the Onyx has nothing to make it standout as the better choice (an EPT - similar to the one enjoyed Green Squadron A-Wings's - would be fine).

You won't ever see Paul Heaver winning worlds with 3 Defenders, even if he would try so.

Well, it's not as though the lists Paul took in the last two years were statistically speaking the optimal choices either time, is it? In fact, he probably beat a few "statistically superior" lists on his way to the repeat. He's a great player, he knows exactly what he's doing and has tons of experience playing the game, it's simple as that. He surprises people and thinks outside the box. If he chose to fly a Delta/Delta/Rexler Squadron I wouldn't bet against him.

Can we either get back to the original topic, or else change the subject to "Lets attack MajorJuggler!!"

No-one's "attacking Major Juggler". We're simply discussing the usefulness of his analysis - which, like it or not, agree with it or not has apparently influenced the way a large number of players on here think about and approach the game. See the above TIE Defender critique as an example. Major Juggler admits himself that his jousting figures don't cover every aspect of the game and that he finds it difficult to put a price on the white K-turn as a result, and yet because his stats suggest it is overcosted and a poor jouster, so do many other people.

First hand experience says otherwise, as those who have played extensively with it will tell you. If I was one vs one in the end game, one of the last ships I'd want to be facing off against would be a TIE Defender. I've learned from experience. I know how much damage they're capable of doing, andhow much damage they're capable of soaking, so neutralising them ASAP becomes a high priorityas a result.

So yeah, if you want to get back to the topic of "Fixing The Game Or The Players", how about discussing exactly how much reliance you can put on raw data in a vacuum (and incomplete raw data at that) as opposed to first hand experience of flying a ship, and against that said ship? And suggestions of how it can be best used against other, typical builds? Or better yet, all three?

The players need a`changin

You suggest the players change ... to what?

More willingness to lose in tournaments ... or in general?

I was being a smartass and trying to get the topic back on topic...you posted while I was doing that...why are you being so defensive?

But since you asked...play in something besides a tournament? Play an epic game? There are other just as fun and important ways to play...this place always feels the need to boil the game down to what happened at worlds.

Nice qualifier on the defenders worth up there too...just cause Paul Heaver (peace be upon him) won't run 3 it's a non viable ship? Maybe I misread your intent though...we will see what comes down the pipe...it will take time to improve the defender yes but it is far from worthless...kilts quite good when you learn how to fly it...and as fts said mj isn't able to value the defenders defining characteristic at this time believe mj said so himself.

You cant fix players. As long as there is a winner and a looser, there will always be a "spike". Its that simple, however you can, on a local level, punish players for poor sportsmanship, but it needs to be for poor sportsmanship, not poor list building, or net listing, or playing a powerful list that the casual crowd doesn't want to play against.

I only caution this because most of the time, when people begin to discuss fixing local players, they start lumping the tournament players, those that if they aren't playing in a tournament, they are practicing for one, into the groups of "problem players". The issue with that is that not all tournament players are jerks or babies about the game. Its just important to make sure that whatever you do to help bring your local players together and fix players that a distinction be drawn. A jerk is a jerk, whether they are casual players or tournament players.

For my taste the generic Defender Pilots are overcosted by about 2 points, named by 1 point, Onyx are lacking EPT.

Disagree on the Deltas & named pilots (they simply haven't been used to their full potential yet). Agree on Onyx, but that's because the White K favours the PS1 Delta, andthe Onys has nothing to make it standout as the better choice (an EPT,similar to Green Squadron A's, would be fine).

You won't ever see Paul Heaver winning worlds with 3 Defenders, even if he would try so.

Well,it's not as though the lists Paul took in the last two years were statistically speaking the optimal choices either time. He's a great player, simple as that. He surprises people and thinks outside the box. If he chose to fly a Delta/Delta/Rexler Squadron I wouldn't bet against him.

Maybe you are right that the Defenders are not used to their full potential yet - but their are still overpriced.

Its easier to use the Defenders' white k-turn AGAINST them. Even if you of course use it to your advance, its more situational then you think it is. You should try to play with them. Its easy to destroy defenders. I have first hand-information playing with and against them.

Paul Heaver took the most nasty rebel list possible in the current meta. I encountered it a few times and never won against it. Even players with low experiences have good chances to succeed with it. And great players like Paul of course even more.

If I was one vs one in the end game, one of the last ships I'd want to be facing off against would be a TIE Defender.

I'd hope so, seeing that it is the most expensive small base ship in the game. It's as expensive as a YT-2400.

I think the K-turn is overvalued because it's red on most ships. That doesn't necessarily means it's just that much more awesome when it's white. Short of that white K the defender's dial isn't spectacular and it's expensive, probably because it paid for that K-turn that gets ignored by most of the strongest ships in the game because they shoot in 360 arcs.

OK ONE MOMENT ...

So ... Now you are going to be attacked because of saying that a ship is overpriced???

MJuggler, myself and many others fought now for quite a time to get the Advanced fixed - and FFG finally did an awesome job by releasing a STRIKING fix to elevate the Advanced to a competitive level. If a board user would have suggested exactly this fix for the Advanced, PPL like you would have mocked the poster for being OP!

Fixing players is an interesting concept. Not certain what those players are doing. I just play the game.

OK ONE MOMENT ...

So ... Now you are going to be attacked because of saying that a ship is overpriced???

MJuggler, myself and many others fought now for quite a time to get the Advanced fixed - and FFG finally did an awesome job by releasing a STRIKING fix to elevate the Advanced to a competitive level. If a board user would have suggested exactly this fix for the Advanced, PPL like you would have mocked the poster for being OP!

I've been reading these forums and listening to interviews with the current x-wing designers Alex Davy and Frank Brooks, and frankly, the majority of the opinions on this board about the balance of the game are not shared by its current designers.

For example, whenever someone posts they think the X-Wing is underpowered on this forum, they will get blasted by the community for whining and not knowing how to use it, but Alex Davy just said in an interview that the generic X-Wings are underpowered and outclassed and they have a fix forthcoming.

OK ONE MOMENT ...

So ... Now you are going to be attacked because of saying that a ship is overpriced???

MJuggler, myself and many others fought now for quite a time to get the Advanced fixed - and FFG finally did an awesome job by releasing a STRIKING fix to elevate the Advanced to a competitive level. If a board user would have suggested exactly this fix for the Advanced, PPL like you would have mocked the poster for being OP!

I've been reading these forums and listening to interviews with the current x-wing designers Alex Davy and Frank Brooks, and frankly, the majority of the opinions on this board about the balance of the game are not shared by its current designers.

For example, whenever someone posts they think the X-Wing is underpowered on this forum, they will get blasted by the community for whining and not knowing how to use it, but Alex Davy just said in an interview that the generic X-Wings are underpowered and outclassed and they have a fix forthcoming.

From the interviews I know that the designers read in the forums. At least they stated so.

Thats the main reason why still I post fresh or matured ideas for fixes or new game elements from time to time,

it doesnt even matter if it is all teared apart by community trolls - I'm sure the designers recognize and appreciate good ideas, creative thoughts and statistics

OK ONE MOMENT ...

So ... Now you are going to be attacked because of saying that a ship is overpriced???

MJuggler, myself and many others fought now for quite a time to get the Advanced fixed - and FFG finally did an awesome job by releasing a STRIKING fix to elevate the Advanced to a competitive level. If a board user would have suggested exactly this fix for the Advanced, PPL like you would have mocked the poster for being OP!

I've been reading these forums and listening to interviews with the current x-wing designers Alex Davy and Frank Brooks, and frankly, the majority of the opinions on this board about the balance of the game are not shared by its current designers.

For example, whenever someone posts they think the X-Wing is underpowered on this forum, they will get blasted by the community for whining and not knowing how to use it, but Alex Davy just said in an interview that the generic X-Wings are underpowered and outclassed and they have a fix forthcoming.

You should know Alex Davy isn't working on X-Wing anymore as well. He as has moved on to Armada. FFG cycles developers approximately once a cycle. Any "fix" he has come up with may not make it past the next set of developers.

Everyone said the same thing about Jay Little's statement regarding prequel ships (see Z95 and HWK).

Everyone said the same thing about Jay Little's statement regarding prequel ships (see Z95 and HWK).

The HWK was as far as I know never seen in the prequels, even if it's old enough. The Z-95 was seen in the Clone Wars cartoon, but it was part of the post Yavin EU for a long time.

Neither ship are prequel ship really.

For my taste the generic Defender Pilots are overcosted by about 2 points, named by 1 point, Onyx are lacking EPT.

Disagree on the Deltas & named pilots (they simply haven't been used to their full potential yet). Agree on Onyx, but that's because the White K favours the PS1 Delta, andthe Onys has nothing to make it standout as the better choice (an EPT,similar to Green Squadron A's, would be fine).

You won't ever see Paul Heaver winning worlds with 3 Defenders, even if he would try so.

Well,it's not as though the lists Paul took in the last two years were statistically speaking the optimal choices either time. He's a great player, simple as that. He surprises people and thinks outside the box. If he chose to fly a Delta/Delta/Rexler Squadron I wouldn't bet against him.

Maybe you are right that the Defenders are not used to their full potential yet - but their are still overpriced.

Its easier to use the Defenders' white k-turn AGAINST them. Even if you of course use it to your advance, its more situational then you think it is. You should try to play with them. Its easy to destroy defenders. I have first hand-information playing with and against them.

Paul Heaver took the most nasty rebel list possible in the current meta. I encountered it a few times and never won against it. Even players with low experiences have good chances to succeed with it. And great players like Paul of course even more.

Only if the person using them plays predictably, more than once i've caught people out by not using the k turn and putting them totally out of position.

Plenty of us are having great success with the defender so maybe the people your fighting arnt yet fully familiar with it.

To be fair, MJ did predict that Defenders and E-wings were overcosted and that Z-95 headhunters were a good value, when announced. The subsequent tournament results have shown that to be fairly accurate. He has also made predictions about scum ships that have not come out yet.

Wait - hold everything folks - you're saying that MJ accurately predicted that a ship which tied (pun intended) the TIE Fighter as the cheapest in the game but was much less susceptible to one hit kills would be good value? **** son, that man's a genius. Sign him up for a Nobel Bloody Prize.

There was no consensus about the durability of the Z-95 before people started playing it and getting tournament results. The math was useful in that regard, otherwise yes it is a very straightforward ship.

Can we either get back to the original topic, or else change the subject to "Lets attack MajorJuggler!!"

But it's such an entertaining read! // grabs popcorn

"MJuggler, myself and many others fought now for quite a time to get the Advanced fixed - and FFG finally did..."

"By the blood of MY people are your lands kept SAFE!"

Of course we are all thankful for your desparate sacrifice on the part of the game. Heaven knows where we would be without the forumites to tell FFG what needs fixing! Especially as the Dark Lord, Paul Heaver, has cast all the land into a second darkness! The meta must...be...saved...

The X-wing...sucks...

FFG, will you not listen?!

I demand balance! No, no...not just any balance will do...it must be MY balance!

Balance is mine...my...my precious...

An accurate value for a 360 turret coefficient is looking to be very close to 1.5. The math directly states that for the Defender to be on par with cheap filler ships, it needs to do 72% more damage than its stat line predicts. I.e. the Defender's dial (net dial, not just the white K-turn) needs to be better than having a 360 degree turret. Even if you drop the Delta to 28 points it would still have to do 42% more damage than its stat line. It's not going to happen.

Except i've flown a duel defender list taking on more ships and more firepower and won losing only three shields in the process.

I've flown a rexler plus miniswarm list against a fat han and not lost one ship.

Defenders can punch above their weight when set up right.

"MJuggler, myself and many others fought now for quite a time to get the Advanced fixed - and FFG finally did..."

"By the blood of MY people are your lands kept SAFE!"

Of course we are all thankful for your desparate sacrifice on the part of the game. Heaven knows where we would be without the forumites to tell FFG what needs fixing! Especially as the Dark Lord, Paul Heaver, has cast all the land into a second darkness! The meta must...be...saved...

The X-wing...sucks...

FFG, will you not listen?!

I demand balance! No, no...not just any balance will do...it must be MY balance!

Balance is mine...my...my precious...

Gollum! Gollum!

Your trollness

By the way, the only ship in the game that needed a real fix was the TIE Advanced. Everything else is competitive.

I look forward to seeing your tournament list consisting of generic E-wings.

An accurate value for a 360 turret coefficient is looking to be very close to 1.5. The math directly states that for the Defender to be on par with cheap filler ships, it needs to do 72% more damage than its stat line predicts. I.e. the Defender's dial (net dial, not just the white K-turn) needs to be better than having a 360 degree turret. Even if you drop the Delta to 28 points it would still have to do 42% more damage than its stat line. It's not going to happen.

Except i've flown a duel defender list taking on more ships and more firepower and won losing only three shields in the process.

I've flown a rexler plus miniswarm list against a fat han and not lost one ship.

Defenders can punch above their weight when set up right.

It is situational. Too situational to have a plan for them that could work out.

I used Vessery, Whisper and Yorr on a tourney and I was satisfied with his ability and the performance in overall - but I had no chance against the Fat Han + ZZZ lists with my squad.

Nevertheless, from my experience the Defender could use a little more 'edge'. Basically they are overpriced a bit.

It is one of my favourite ships - I own 4 Defenders ... ready for the next epic battle .... or Escalation Tournament

... but I won't take them to the upcomming Store Championships ... because I'm there to win.

At least I try so.

Defenders can punch above their weight when set up right.

Anything can punch above its weight when set up right, assuming your opponent lets you outmaneuver him.

Anything can punch above its weight when set up right, assuming your opponent lets you outmaneuver him.

Straight from the horses mouth,people - statistics only go so far, and they don't tell anywhere near the whole story. Let them guide your thinking by all means, but do not fixate on them.

You're right MJ - this IS entertaining!

"MJuggler, myself and many others fought now for quite a time to get the Advanced fixed - and FFG finally did..."

Yeah, I was amused by that line myself.

You should try to play with them. Its easy to destroy defenders. I have first hand-information playing with and against them.

Straight from the horses mouth,people - statistics only go so far. Let them guide your thinking by all means, but do not fixate on them.

Has anyone said otherwise? Has MajorJuggler ever said "My stats are the absolute proof that Ship X should never been seen on a table"?