Hi Rebels,
When the cards in the game state "use while attacking", does that mean you can chose to activate it after the combat roll has happened? (for example: 'weapon expert')
Thx in (Tie)advance
"While" attacking - can I still activate after the combat dice roll?
Page 6 Rules Reference booklet, 1st column under "Special situations regarding attacks"
• Any ability that is resolved “while attacking” or “while defending” can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:
- An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to modify die results can only be used during step 4 of the attack.
So there are more phases than meets the casual eye! I had to unlearn that, due to only playing MtG for 15 years. I over-difficult-ify everything
Page 6 Rules Reference booklet, 1st column under "Special situations regarding attacks"
• Any ability that is resolved “while attacking” or “while defending” can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:
- An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to modify die results can only be used during step 4 of the attack.
Weapons Expert would "trigger" or be used in step 4 since it modifies dice results. The 7 steps of an attack is listed on page 5:
1. Declare Target: Based upon its attack type (P or O), the figure performing the attack (referred to as the attacker) declares one eligible target for the attack (referred to as the target).
- For a melee attack (P), an eligible target is any hostile figure adjacent to the attacker. For a ranged attack (O), an eligible target is any hostile figure within line of sight of the attacker.
2. Roll Dice: The attacker rolls his attack dice at the same time as the defender rolls defense dice (listed under “Defense” on the target figure’s Hero sheet or Deployment card).
3. Rerolls: If players have any effects that reroll dice, they are resolved now.
- Each die may be rerolled only once per attack regardless of who is rerolling the die.
4. Apply Modifiers: If players have any effects that gain or remove icons or Accuracy, they are applied at this time. This includes spending F (evade) results to remove B results. Any B abilities that provide modifiers are not resolved until step 5.
5. Spend Surges: If the attacker has any B results, he may spend them to trigger special abilities.
6. Check Accuracy: If performing a ranged attack (O) the total Accuracy value must be equal to or greater than the number of spaces the target is away from the attacker. (See “Counting Spaces” on page 9). If the total Accuracy value is less than this number, the attack is a miss.
7. Calculate Damage: The total number of G (block) results is subtracted from the total number of H (damage) results, and then the target suffers all remaining H.
Page 6 Rules Reference booklet, 1st column under "Special situations regarding attacks"
• Any ability that is resolved “while attacking” or “while defending” can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:
- An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to modify die results can only be used during step 4 of the attack.
There is a timing difference between WHEN a reroll and WHEN a reroll is used. I found a few instances in the rules where different words were used to describe the timing of use, that caused an ambiguous timing discussions.
One such discussion was when Dialla's Force Adept ability is used. Yes, it grants a reroll. But the wording suggests that it must be granted BEFORE dice are roll by the inclusion of the word 'May'. 'May' assumes I already have the effect and it's use is an option. It's my belief that Force Adepts reroll needs to be present before the roll...therefore before the reroll step that you suggest.
***EDITTED*** Removed my comment that the quoted poster didn't write the rules verbatim..
Edited by VerschAs an example of non-standard term use Weapons Expert states "Use while attacking..." while Force Adept reads "Use while you or a friendly figure is performing an attack or attribute test...".
In hindsight, It could be that the inclusion of 'performing' was to accentuate the attribute test.
Not the ambiguous situation I was referring to previously, but I will try to remember and post when I do recall them.
Page 6 Rules Reference booklet, 1st column under "Special situations regarding attacks"
• Any ability that is resolved “while attacking” or “while defending” can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:
- An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to modify die results can only be used during step 4 of the attack.
Your added words (· An ability that...) aren't written verbatim in the rulebook on page 5.
No disrespect intended, but the inclusion steers the clarification to your own interpretation.
There is a timing difference between WHEN a reroll and WHEN a refill is used. I found a few instances in the rules where different words were used to describe the timing of use, that caused an ambiguous timing discussions.
One such discussion was when Dialla's Force Adept ability is used. Yes, it grants a reroll. But the wording suggests that it must be granted BEFORE dice are roll by the inclusion of the word 'May'. 'May' assumes I already have the effect and it's use is an option. It's my belief that Force Adepts reroll needs to be present before the roll...therefore before the reroll step that you suggest.
If I misunder you then please point out my horrible mistake(s)
I honestly don't understand what you are saying/implying: my quote is an EXACT copy-paste from the pdf booklet of the Rules Reference PAGE 6.
Page 6 Rules Reference booklet, 1st column under "Special situations regarding attacks"
• Any ability that is resolved “while attacking” or “while defending” can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:
- An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.
- An ability that allows a player to modify die results can only be used during step 4 of the attack.
Your added words (· An ability that...) aren't written verbatim in the rulebook on page 5.
No disrespect intended, but the inclusion steers the clarification to your own interpretation.
There is a timing difference between WHEN a reroll and WHEN a refill is used. I found a few instances in the rules where different words were used to describe the timing of use, that caused an ambiguous timing discussions.
One such discussion was when Dialla's Force Adept ability is used. Yes, it grants a reroll. But the wording suggests that it must be granted BEFORE dice are roll by the inclusion of the word 'May'. 'May' assumes I already have the effect and it's use is an option. It's my belief that Force Adepts reroll needs to be present before the roll...therefore before the reroll step that you suggest.
If I misunder you then please point out my horrible mistake(s)
The mistake was mine Forensicus. I've updated the reply as well. I mistakenly referenced page 5, while your exerp was from page 6.
To add to the justification of different language being used at certain times (causing ambiguity) page 5 refers to 'any effects that reroll dice are resolved now" and page 6 states "An ability that allows a player to reroll dice..." Very different.
By this definition, Dianna's Force Adept is used after rolls are seen...and still misleading with the inclusion of 'May'. After seeing the result of an Attribute test and conferring with my teammate why would I pay for the ability's effect and my partner then not use it? Too many games in my head I guess.
I don't think there is any disambiguation, the rules are fairly cut and dry here. If you have the ability to somehow reroll dice, it *MUST* be used prior to Step 4. If you were to gain a reroll - or wish to activate one - AFTER step 3, it would be too late to use it for that combat.
This is similar to the Imperial Officer who gains Focus via surge. By the time he chooses what to spend surges on (Step 5), the time has come and gone for him to add it to the pool of dice to be rolled (Step 2).
The *ONLY* exception to that would be a written ability that explicitly allows that exception, such as the passive E-Web Engineer ability that explicitly states that they are allowed to attack twice in one activation even though the rules very clearly say that Imperial forces may not attack twice in an activation.
We'll agree to disagree then Powda. Using different words for the same meaning can cause examples of Ambiguity.
In this example Ability and Effect. There is a difference between an Ability and an Effect...one produces the other. But what we come to find after a bit of digging is that they are (meant to be?) one and the same.
I understand WHEN rerolls are made and when they are allowed. The question stemmed from the above discussions was a question whether the Effect (the 'May reroll') needed to be granted by the Ability (Force Adept) before the die roll or after.
In either case, if FFG says that Ability and Effect are synonomous, then yes, no confusion.
Abilities and effects are different, but not mutually exclusive.
An effect grant the use of an ability. An ability very produces some type of effect.
The main difference here is that an effect could easily be something triggered by a Mission Rule or by a static effect on a card. The use of the term 'effect' provides a broad enough terminology for 'something that cause something else to happen' kind of thing.
As to WHEN the ability had to grant the effect, it's my understanding that the timing of things simply has to fall within the rules with regards to how far you've gone down the Steps during the attack. If you want the reroll, the very latest you could activate the ability would be after the initial roll but before Step 4 where evade / pierce, etc. would get assigned and of course, any time prior to that during the attack.