Hi, I was playing a game yesterday and wanted to get some opinions about a situation that came up.

One of my opponents decided to attack me in physical combat.
He wanted to use the Weighted Dice ( http://www.talismanwiki.com/Weighted_Dice )

and the Flail ( http://www.talismanwiki.com/Flail ) together in the combat.

So his interpretation was that he could use the weighted dice to set the roll of both the battle AND the extra roll from the flail (effectively allowing him to roll a 12 that also stops me from rolling a battle die also).

My interpretation was that he could set the battle die to whatever he wanted, and then he needed to roll the 2nd bonus die from the flail.

My reason for this interpretation was because of the wording on the card Weighted Dice card

Weighted Dice
"You may use Weighted Dice before you roll the die for your move or attack roll .
You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it. The Weighted Dice then roll off to the discard pile."

It only states that you can choose the result on a single die, not the plural dice.

Flail
"You may roll 2 dice during battle and add them together to determine your attack roll .
If you roll doubles, your opponent cannot add his attack roll to his attack score ."

So with the flail he could set one die to whatever he wanted, then roll the 2nd die and IF they were the same I would not get to roll.

I'd be interested for your thoughts on this.

We eventually just let him do it, I had a combined strength of 22 without rolling thanks to a warhorse and he was able to get himself to 23 with the card combo giving his dice a 12 + his 11 strength.

He wanted to take my warhorse off me by taking my life....but he screwed up and decided to take an item instead and even if he did take my life, I was going to prevent the life loss with a Spell anyway, so it would not have mattered .

I wondered same as you. I would say that he could only decide for only one dice:

"You may use Weighted Dice before you roll the die for your move or attack roll."

The die, and not the dies. For me it's clear.

This is up to interpretation because the title of the card is "Weighted Dice", plural. And the card states you may choose the result on the die. If you get stuck on one of the individual words here it is easy to find a contradiction.

I think the intent of the card is to choose the result if you are rolling one or more dice. I could be wrong and this another one of those questions that would be better answered in an FAQ.

This is a typical question raised by the conflict with an old wording and a new game-breaking effect.

A similar question has been already asked about the Assassin using his ability against a character with Flail.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/85335-silly-question/

When the Assassin and Weighted Dice have been introduced, it wasn't possible to roll 2 dice to determine the attack roll.

Surely it's not possible to use Weighted Dice to choose the result on 1 die instead of rolling it and roll the second. The attack roll with Flail is made by 2 dice.

The options are either to choose the result on both dice or forbid the use of Weighted Dice completely. Personally I'm all for updating the game to new standards, but there are many other cases when this could open up new problems (e.g. Lucky Charm used on Flail). My choice is to forbid using the Weighted Dice when the attack roll is not made by a single die roll.

Beware that some effects (Bolster, Poisoned Dagger, Champion of Light) allow to roll 1 additional die and add it to the attack roll; using Weighted Dice is fine in that case.

It's also worth to notice that if you want to make it the other way and choose the result on both dice, the Flail secondary ability cannot be triggered. If no dice are rolled, then you can't "roll doubles".

This is a typical question raised by the conflict with an old wording and a new game-breaking effect.

A similar question has been already asked about the Assassin using his ability against a character with Flail.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/85335-silly-question/

When the Assassin and Weighted Dice have been introduced, it wasn't possible to roll 2 dice to determine the attack roll.

Surely it's not possible to use Weighted Dice to choose the result on 1 die instead of rolling it and roll the second. The attack roll with Flail is made by 2 dice.

The options are either to choose the result on both dice or forbid the use of Weighted Dice completely. Personally I'm all for updating the game to new standards, but there are many other cases when this could open up new problems (e.g. Lucky Charm used on Flail). My choice is to forbid using the Weighted Dice when the attack roll is not made by a single die roll.

Beware that some effects (Bolster, Poisoned Dagger, Champion of Light) allow to roll 1 additional die and add it to the attack roll; using Weighted Dice is fine in that case.

It's also worth to notice that if you want to make it the other way and choose the result on both dice, the Flail secondary ability cannot be triggered. If no dice are rolled, then you can't "roll doubles".

Regardless, I would think the "result" triggers the effect on the flail, not the roll. In Talisman, "roll" seems to be a general term that describes how we come to the "result".

It's also worth to notice that if you want to make it the other way and choose the result on both dice, the Flail secondary ability cannot be triggered. If no dice are rolled, then you can't "roll doubles".

Therein lies the problem with no true definition or differentiator between "roll", "natural roll" or result. A lot of games define the difference between a natural roll and a result. Alas, we are left to our own interpretations.

Regardless, I would think the "result" triggers the effect on the flail, not the roll. In Talisman, "roll" seems to be a general term that describes how we come to the "result".

Talisman 4th edition defines the difference between "roll" and "natural roll", hence my observation.

Check the basic rulebook, page 15:

Natural vs. Modif ied Roll

If an effect or special ability refers to a die result, only the number appearing on the die is considered, not the modified result obtained by adding bonuses or subtracting penalties. For example, the Troll’s special ability allows him to regenerate whenever he rolls a “6” for his move. During the Troll’s turn, he rolls a “4” for his move. He also uses a card that allows him to add 2 to his movement roll for a total of 6. However, the Troll may not regenerate this turn since the actual die result is a “4” instead of a “6.”

"Doubles" means "a natural roll of 2 dice showing the same result", so I won't a consider any result determined without rolling as having rolled doubles. It's a subtlety, but it's the "result" that is chosen, not the numbers rolled.

Talisman 4th edition defines the difference between "roll" and "natural roll", hence my observation.

Check the basic rulebook, page 15:

Natural vs. Modif ied Roll

If an effect or special ability refers to a die result, only the number appearing on the die is considered, not the modified result obtained by adding bonuses or subtracting penalties. For example, the Troll’s special ability allows him to regenerate whenever he rolls a “6” for his move. During the Troll’s turn, he rolls a “4” for his move. He also uses a card that allows him to add 2 to his movement roll for a total of 6. However, the Troll may not regenerate this turn since the actual die result is a “4” instead of a “6.”

"Doubles" means "a natural roll of 2 dice showing the same result", so I won't a consider any result determined without rolling as having rolled doubles. It's a subtlety, but it's the "result" that is chosen, not the numbers rolled.

This seems tricksier and tricksier! Both Weighted Dice and Lucky Charm state that:

"You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it."

A modified roll in the basic rules is one that is " obtained by adding bonuses or subtracting penalties." My interpretation is that Weighted Dice and Lucky Charm give you a natural roll of your choosing, since there is nothing added to or subtracted from the result. There is certainly room for doubt, though.

For the Flail, the interpretation is even harder since you roll two dice to determine one attack roll. Although the title on Weighted Dice implies several dice, the text specifies a singular die. In this case, my interpretation favours the actual ruling text, meaning one die may be chosen before the attack roll. This means that with the flail, the second die should be rolled after the first has been chosen to determine the attack roll. In my opinion, this is the best option anyway, since letting you choose one die and rolling the other still gives you a benefit but the probability of a double remains the same as without WD or LC.

It also means that if you happen to have and use two Lucky Charms at the same time, you could choose a double six as your result. In my opinion, if you've gone through all that effort to get a double six, you deserve it unequivocally.

Talisman 4th edition defines the difference between "roll" and "natural roll", hence my observation.

Check the basic rulebook, page 15:

Natural vs. Modif ied Roll

If an effect or special ability refers to a die result, only the number appearing on the die is considered, not the modified result obtained by adding bonuses or subtracting penalties. For example, the Troll’s special ability allows him to regenerate whenever he rolls a “6” for his move. During the Troll’s turn, he rolls a “4” for his move. He also uses a card that allows him to add 2 to his movement roll for a total of 6. However, the Troll may not regenerate this turn since the actual die result is a “4” instead of a “6.”

"Doubles" means "a natural roll of 2 dice showing the same result", so I won't a consider any result determined without rolling as having rolled doubles. It's a subtlety, but it's the "result" that is chosen, not the numbers rolled.

This seems tricksier and tricksier! Both Weighted Dice and Lucky Charm state that:

"You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it."

A modified roll in the basic rules is one that is " obtained by adding bonuses or subtracting penalties." My interpretation is that Weighted Dice and Lucky Charm give you a natural roll of your choosing, since there is nothing added to or subtracted from the result. There is certainly room for doubt, though.

For the Flail, the interpretation is even harder since you roll two dice to determine one attack roll. Although the title on Weighted Dice implies several dice, the text specifies a singular die. In this case, my interpretation favours the actual ruling text, meaning one die may be chosen before the attack roll. This means that with the flail, the second die should be rolled after the first has been chosen to determine the attack roll. In my opinion, this is the best option anyway, since letting you choose one die and rolling the other still gives you a benefit but the probability of a double remains the same as without WD or LC.

It also means that if you happen to have and use two Lucky Charms at the same time, you could choose a double six as your result. In my opinion, if you've gone through all that effort to get a double six, you deserve it unequivocally.

When used on a single die, there's no difference between choosing the result and a "chosen natural roll".

With a two dice roll, such as the Flail's attack roll, I'm a bit reluctant to admit the use of Weighted Dice. Probably they could be used to determine one of the 2 dice results and roll the other (or use a Lucky Charm, if the player so wishes; I agree that such an effort could grant the desired result).

My discussion was only in a hypothetic scenario. Shall you decide to permit the Weighted Dice to determine a 2-dice attack roll, you cannot exploit effects for rolling "doubles". A 12 on 2 dice is obviously made of two 6 results, but many other results are not (e.g. the 4,5,6,7,8,9,10); if you choose to roll a 6 on two dice, that's what Weighted Dice allow you to do. Choosing that the 6 comes from a double 3 goes beyond the ability of Weighted Dice.

Flail + Weighted Dice = Choose the result on one die with the Weighted Dice then roll the other die.

Flail + Weighted Dice + Lucky Charm = Choose the result on one die with the Weighted Dice then choose the result on the other die with the Lucky Charm.

Flail + Weighted Dice = Choose the result on one die with the Weighted Dice then roll the other die.

Flail + Weighted Dice + Lucky Charm = Choose the result on one die with the Weighted Dice then choose the result on the other die with the Lucky Charm.

I'm copy and pasting that in my "Talisman nutty rule probs" sheet for latter hair pulling .

Using the digital edition of talisman as rule of thumb, it is crystal clear that the Weighted Dice card only allows for one die selection, regardless of how many dice you throw - just as the actual card text refers; choose the outcome if one die.

And to my mind, it is a fair view to expect the world of talisman to convey the existence of several weighted dice, but in the one card you get hold of just one of the potentially several ones existing, eh?