The deck was brilliant! It was on this deck that I based my House Special Themes deck based out of Stark. I just swept the field using the modified search/draw and To Be a Wolf to grab my pieces as well as remove all the non-septons from the deck.

And the win ratio is very understandable. If your opponent does not have the cancel, location destruction, or attachment discard in hand when you triggered it there was little to nothing they could keep you from winning.

I think the houses special tourney... Geoff just went and didn't realize it was a special tourney... but then won because he just used his Stark deck and grabbed Massing each time...

Ktom, you are correct DM has nothing to do with KoS. It was a point made about Den of the Wolf, which to my surprise I don't hear any complaining about.

As for Rise of the Kraken + the KoS event... that alone might not warrant say a banning of Rise of the Kraken, but possibly the remainder of the unopposed crap. I mean that plot is rather broken to begin with. I recall being able to get 8 power in one turn with that alone, not mentioning the renown and other power claim. And the agenda just makes it easier. And remember... the design of cards post Ravens is for the LCG only environment.

bloodycelt said:

Well, I think my confusion is justified if the point was about Den of the Wolf because it was made in the context of being contingent on the release of the set and the event card.

Largely, you haven't heard any complaining about the card because (as dormouse pointed out earlier) it's not worth complaining about. It's a one shot. And all these incredible scenarios that people come up with about how "disastrous" it is to repeat a phase usually depend on getting a fair number of things into place first. In Standard, it's not an NPE problem because even when the pieces are put together, the location is smacked or the effect is canceled as often as not. In LCG, it's not an NPE problem because it's a lot harder to get all the pieces together most of the time. In either format, the repeat phase usually pushes someone who is already in a superior position to the win rather than creating a sudden reversal for the win.

(There's also the fact that as the game shifts more toward local, grass-roots play with less interaction between metas, you're going to be hearing less complaining in general. Some metas may actually be having issues with this card, but none of the ones that post or talk seem to be.)

That's not to say it isn't a card to watch or to try to abuse - only that it isn't as earth-shattering or game-changing as it appears at first glance. The most common use I've personally seen for it's phase repeat ability is Plot. You throw Valar, then repeat the phase so as to have a plot with gold and claim. Effective, but hardly a game winner - nor is it the only way to do that.

if there was more immunity in LCG it would be a problem, it only stops what two cards right now (since it loses to CoC) from being immune, and the one plot that gives immunity?

"Well, I think my confusion is justified if the point was about Den of the Wolf because it was made in the context of being contingent on the release of the set and the event card." -KTOM

Didn't say it was unjustified, just explaining myself and correcting my context error.

Ok, so you've made the point that due to a one-off ability that can canceled and pounced... its no longer justified as an alarming card. So I will concede that to you

Now what think you of my other point? The possible reaction of the extra challenges and unopposed tech with Rise of the Kraken?

bloodycelt said:

I didn't say the alarm wasn't justified, only that it doesn't carry through into practice particularly well.

bloodycelt said:

What is your point here? Are you talking about Den of the Wolf or the new event? Or are you talking about people wanting to ban certain cards for Standard in local metas because of the extra challenges and unopposed tech combined with Rise of the Kraken? I suppose that in either event, again, I'm going to have to go with "wouldn't this have happened already?" All of those things are already available in Standard, aren't they?

You also have to define "Standard." Traditionally, ITE (and Rise of the Kraken) would rotate out in August, so "Standard" may not include what seems to be your biggest concern pretty soon. There's also a good chance (see the "play formats" thread) that by September, more and more metas will be moving to LCG over Standard, anyway. Ultimately, though, "Standard" is a local definition and a local issue. Individual Metas already follow their own modifications of the LCG and Legacy banned lists for Standard.

I'm pretty much with ktom here. Standard by all rights should drop ITE in August. I wouldn't be surprised if by January 5KE is pretty much dropped as well (we'd have all of King Landing and both expansions and probably starting on whatever is coming after KLE, wasn't there some sort of hint about it?). So no ITE no DM, no DM no killer combo. As to Rise of the Kraken... I reserve judgment until we see enough renown or other power grabbing mechanics to make the deck over powered. I can see a dedicated UO deck grabbing 10 power in a turn with the right cards in play/hand, but this would hardly be the first time this has been possible, even out of Greyjoy. I've done 8 in Bara in the LCG. It is something to watch, but I have a problem with getting worked up about something based on a hypothetical. Even real world examples on a limited scale (check all the stuff about Men Without Hats) don't really move me to the errata wagon or pulling out the ban-hammer.

Lol, I was just thinking with the new event, and the new tech that makes it easier to create unopposed challenges... that Rise of the Kraken could net about 14 and up power in one turn. It's not just the extra challenge made with it... but the cluster of other cards that enforce getting the unopposed challenge. My point of speculation was that there is a possibility of the new expansion making Rise of the Kraken more powerful, and unbalancing standard (The standard that includes ITE). Which may either cause rotation of ITE or banning Rise if they wanted to keep ITE.

bloodycelt said:

You've completely lost me on your base assumption here. It's the "easier to create unopposed challenges" bit that makes no sense to me for Standard. Are you having TROUBLE getting unopposed challenges in GJ? Really? Between Intimidate, pumps, Naval Support, Hooked Trident, Veteran Looters, etc., it's not like it's particularly HARD for GJ to generate unopposed challenges in Standard, with or without Rise of the Kraken. I can't say I've seen anything spoiled so far that says (for Standard), "well good - because it's been really hard for me to get an unopposed challenge with my Greyjoy deck before now."

Seriously, what "new tech" are you seeing that significantly impact's GJ's ability to get a challenge unopposed? Still seems to me that you're thinking up a balance issue for Standard that, if it's coming, should already exist. GJ unopposed rush has been around for years. Very popular build for the KoSaR Agenda.

I'm not following eihter. Greyjoy in Standard already had so much stealth and initmidtae (Mainn's stealth deck was nasty) to grab plenty of unopposed. Kings of Salt and rock could hone that down to a fine precision point. I'm not seeing anyhting in the spoilers that make me think this is oging to be improved upon.

And regardless, as ktom observes - ITE is gone in eight weeks anyway, so what's hte big deal? I really, really doubt you'ld see anyone argue for a banning or errata in standard. It wold ahve to be pretty obnoxious - and I know people who still play Jaquen, so that's saying a lot.

THE EVENTS that give extra challenges.... my POINT is that since it's so easy and will be made easier to get unopposed, Rise of the Kraken will give you an additional 2 power per event.

My current standard deck can get 6 power from Rise alone... not to mention that I use Kings of Salt and Rock with renown characters. I'm planning on adding in the extra challenges cards which will get me up to 10. Then add in claim 2 power... that goes up to 12. All I need is 3 power or some renown to win on that one challenge phase alone. And to my knowlege players have been able to oppose at least one challenge... but add in Support for Harlaw, and some of the other unopposed tech to make it even easier than me, how is a player going to feel if I reveal that plot, AND they don't have enough of the cards in hand to just stop me from winning in challenges phase? With the right hand I could win on turn 1.

Granted if folks rotate ITE and Gencon isn't hosting a standard worlds... then sure it's not that big of a deal.

bloodycelt said:

There will be NO standard "worlds". FFG does not recognize standard anymore. So while some players may choose to organize a standard tourney at Gencon, it will not be "worlds". Perhaps that helps answer some questions.

i just can't get crazy about four card combos that maybe can win the game in one challenge phase. too much has to happen in a House with limited draw and there are cancels a-plenty in the deeper format.

And again - yeah - everyone I know has accepted that ITE is gone this August.

Stag Lord said:

agreed -- let standard be standard

bloodycelt said:

With the right hand you could win on turn 1 with a 1 gold plot? Not only do you need the "right hand," but you need the "right drop." And for your opponent to have a completely horrible drop. I mean, Support of Harlaw costs 2 gold in and of itself, so it's hard to imagine you being able to pull this off on Turn 1 very often. Oh, and how did your opponent get the 2 power for you to steal during your 2-claim power challenge turn 1? Are you going to go second with your 8-initiative plot?

I'm with Stag; this is so unlikely that it isn't going to be a big deal. I think your opponent isn't going to feel cheated so much as astonished that all the cards in both your deck and his cooperated on that. It's a "perfect draw" in a GJ rush deck. It could happen. It will eventually happen. But it won't happen often. And it's more likely to generate hate for that deck than hate for any particular card if it is somehow consistent. Anyway, if you really wanted to build this deck, you could do it now with "Easily Misled" providing the extra power challenge.

Very nice "Shagga-esque" theorizing, though.

Yup, I agree with, ktom here. I don't think anyone (Sam [icyewolf] included) felt cheated or anything when Jeppedo got a 1st turn win in our Regionals Championship 3 years ago with his War of the 5 Kings deck. I think most everyone's reactions were more of the "HOLY CRAP THAT'S AMAZING!" variety. There was a great deal of excitement.

*dry voice* He still tells the story....

I get your point from a theoretical stand point... but this doesn't even stand up to being as much of an issue as Lars soapbox. He at least has built the deck and is dominating his meta with it, though apparently no one else has been able to recreate that experience.

Besides, Baratheon joust used to be able to pull off that same thing in the first turn with some real consistency and there was very little call for banning or nerfing aything. As a matter of fact I think I was one of the few people who was saying that the jousting tourney grounds should be nerfed by having to kneel.

We've seen this deck type out of Stark also with the multiple challenges and War of the 5 Kings/Black Fish powered Tully swarming decks.

Thye are a known factor that we have tools to deal with in both Standard and LCG.