I have used expose with EI and echo with a lot of success. I have to say that when it has failed it has been a huge failure.

Predator with EU is more consistent against a larger variety of builds. Also I think Whisper is a must instead of Echo due to pilot skill though I like Echo much more.

Love the debate between the two Chiraneau builds, with good players on both sides fiercely defending both. I've tried both and the expose build is much more satisfying and will destroy against most builds. But the moment a full control build comes along like Froggies' Worlds list (3B's with tact and Y with ion and stress bot) or something similar, the Decimator gets burned hard.

I do agree that the Decimator green moves aren't the most limiting, especially when you use expose judiciously. I'm still torn between the 2 because pred and engine just gives so much more maneuverability to the game.

I'm gonna try both against more varieties of builds before deciding, but to Benvader, totally agree Echo is more fun. Whisper is way more survivable in this turret meta, but I can't give up Echo. :-P

I had more luck with Marksmanship and EI than Expose and EI.

Target lock, plus turning two foci into crits and the rest into hits was pretty nice.

Yikes, Vader on a loaded 60 pt. Rear Admiral gives me the chills...

Every time you use Vader, you pretty much blow 8 points of your 100 pts list. So, use ONLY if those 8 points are going to be paid off (Finishing a ship, basically).

In my mind, Vader COULD, and only COULD go on kenkirk, with Yssane, and Moff Jerjerrod to throw him through the airlock once you've got your first nasty crit, or even force Yssane's activation. Even then, Vader belongs in a shuttle, or patrol leader.

tomorrow i'm trying the infamous EI + Expose build. I consider myself a good navigator, but my rival is too, so let's see what can I do with my movement crippled by mostly green movements. I think I'm getting someone with wingman EPT, to keep things less predictable.

Going to miss the engine SO MUCH.

If you really want wingman, I'd go with a ptl+yi+eu kenkirk and wingman hlc vessery instead.

Yikes, Vader on a loaded 60 pt. Rear Admiral gives me the chills...

Every time you use Vader, you pretty much blow 8 points of your 100 pts list. So, use ONLY if those 8 points are going to be paid off (Finishing a ship, basically).

In my mind, Vader COULD, and only COULD go on kenkirk, with Yssane, and Moff Jerjerrod to throw him through the airlock once you've got your first nasty crit, or even force Yssane's activation. Even then, Vader belongs in a shuttle, or patrol leader.

tomorrow i'm trying the infamous EI + Expose build. I consider myself a good navigator, but my rival is too, so let's see what can I do with my movement crippled by mostly green movements. I think I'm getting someone with wingman EPT, to keep things less predictable.

Going to miss the engine SO MUCH.

Try use vessery with vi and hlc as your second ship.

If you really want wingman, I'd go with a ptl+yi+eu kenkirk and wingman hlc vessery instead.

I'll go hard first. No wingman, just VI Vessery.

Oh, and I'm one of the guys who swear by Vader on a decimator never leave home without it! :-P

Yikes, Vader on a loaded 60 pt. Rear Admiral gives me the chills...

Every time you use Vader, you pretty much blow 8 points of your 100 pts list. So, use ONLY if those 8 points are going to be paid off (Finishing a ship, basically).

In my mind, Vader COULD, and only COULD go on kenkirk, with Yssane, and Moff Jerjerrod to throw him through the airlock once you've got your first nasty crit, or even force Yssane's activation. Even then, Vader belongs in a shuttle, or patrol leader.

tomorrow i'm trying the infamous EI + Expose build. I consider myself a good navigator, but my rival is too, so let's see what can I do with my movement crippled by mostly green movements. I think I'm getting someone with wingman EPT, to keep things less predictable.

Going to miss the engine SO MUCH.

Try use vessery with vi and hlc as your second ship.

If you really want wingman, I'd go with a ptl+yi+eu kenkirk and wingman hlc vessery instead.

I'll go hard first. No wingman, just VI Vessery.

Remember:

Shoot with vess first

Rerolls on a HLC can indeed crit

Expose doesn't remove Chir's r3 1 agility die

Expose doesn't remove Chir's r3 1 agility die

No, range 3 and asteroids do not add agility, they add a defense die, while expose specifically says it lowers agility.

I already knew, but it's cool you're helpful guys

Also, when you have hull damage, remember triggering expose using EI from Issard, to avoid the stress killing the free evade!

I've yet to play or play against a Decimator but it doesn't seem like 16 hits points would last very long with 0 Agility. Ysane only kicks in for the last 11 hull at the most. If a Decimator isn't able to use EU to dodge arcs how does it manage to stay alive long enough to win? Is it only effective because 2 and 3 ship builds are currently popular?

Why, it stays alive by DECIMATING the opposition of course.

Why, it stays alive by DECIMATING the opposition of course.

Doesn't it have to worry about the other 9/10ths of the opposition after it completes its decimation?

Teehee.

i will add, this combo is both good and bad. It has different strengths against different lists and different weaknesses against other lists. I've been flying EI/Expose Chirey for a while now, and I can say, it is a competitive build, but has a couple hard counters that WILL make it a slight gamble in tournaments. The good news is that the some of the hard counters are currently NOT rampant in the community at large, but may become more of a staple as EI/Expose Chirey becomes regularly played.

The counters being:

1. Rebel Captive on a Decimator or Firespray

2. Rebel Control (ion or stress)

3. Rebel and Imperial Swarms

4. Anything similar to this

The good news is, you can kit out the rest of the points in your squad to minimize the impact of the weaknesses. Though, doing so will require a really good understanding of the current meta. The squad I've chosen right now helps to minimize the swarm weakness, as that is the most likely counter to be seen with the 3 turrets running rampant.

Rear Admiral Chirey + Expose + EI + Darth Vader + Rebel Captive + Moff Jerjerrod

Whisper + VI + ACD + FCS

100pts

Whisper is the main swarm counter, as well as the Darth Vader crew card. I know it looks funny at first, killing off your 61pt ship, but there is a very good reason to run this card. Now, imagine being range 1 of a Tie Fighter, through average Red dice and hot Green dice, you only manage to squeak out 2 hits (the Chirey crit being negligible) a range 1 Tie will now get to shoot back, scoring 2 - 3 hits. Without Vader crew, Whisper or Chirey will have to take another round of shooting to finish off that 1 hp ship, this is in addition to the damage you are taking from that Tie. If Vader force chokes that Tie to death, you take the same amount of damage, but free yourself to target a new ship next round. The same situation can happen with B Wings, where even with combined fire with Whisper and Chirey, that 8 hp B wing, sitting at Range 2-3, manages to live by 1 life. That B Wing is likely to get a lot of damage through on Chirey, and waste a round of shooting next turn. And yes, this situation DOES occur quite often, even the dice averages show this to be the case (not quite at range 1 though).

The downside to the Whisper + EI/Expose Chirey is Rebel Captive on another high HP ship REALLY hurts (not quite as much on a low HP ship, as the shear damage output of the squad could take that ship out quickly). Another Deci, preferably without EI/Expose, would be a HUGE pain, as neither Chirey or Whisper wants to shoot that Rebel Captive. Strangely enough, it is still doable, as long as Whisper survives the uncloaked return fire for 2 rounds, and you are working your butt off to eliminate that Rebel Captive threat, while still keeping Whisper out of arc of the non turret ships.

I don't really like boasting or talking about my wins, etc, as it can make me sound like a jerk, but I've played that combo quite a few times on Vassal and on the table. The one tournament I took it to I went 4-0. Some games were tough, but no enemy had Rebel Captive or any other squad dedicated to beating the list. I don't even think Whisper died, as Chirey was such a HUGE, more easily targeted threat. It even beat a semi mirror match against another Whisper + Chirey squad that ran Predator, Ysanne, Engine, Moff Jerjerrod. The EI/Expose squad is sort of a predatory squad against mobile turret squads, as that mobility becomes useless. I mean, it's main strength is that EI/Expose Chirey does MORE damage against turrets, other than range 2-3 HLC Dash, but doesn't have an exploitable Donut hole. In a Deci vs Deci fight, would you rather have Predator + Gunner, or EI + Expose? (Ignoring the possibility of Rebel Captive). Obviously, EI/Expose. Gunner becomes useless, etc.

Ysanne Isaard is obviously a great card for that combo as well. Making it possible to perform the combo even when action denied. My only issue with the card was it becomes doubly painful to beat another Rebel Captive Deci, or stress inducing squad, as now 11 pts will become much less useful, instead of 7 (though you can just choose not to stress yourself and hope for the best with Expose or TL only and Chirey's ability). The downside to not taking is you REALLY have to move to never be action denied. Really just another meta/play style dependent feature. Setting up to get chased rather than ramming an opponent. I'm also a big fan of Moff, and Ysanne takes up that crew slot. I REALLY hate getting bad Crits on a ship that takes up 60% of your squad. I've lost games on a PTL Oicunn due to Damaged Engine and Weapon's malfunction. Blinded pilot also hurts when you don't have Gunner, as well as Injured pilot ruining the use of Expose (another way to destroy 7 pts in your squad).

Both Predator + Gunner and EI + Expose have their place. I'm not certain one is better than the other, they are just different.

I've yet to play or play against a Decimator but it doesn't seem like 16 hits points would last very long with 0 Agility. Ysane only kicks in for the last 11 hull at the most. If a Decimator isn't able to use EU to dodge arcs how does it manage to stay alive long enough to win? Is it only effective because 2 and 3 ship builds are currently popular?

Stress is a big part of it last game I played I faced a HLC leebo he focused his fire on my decimator and I fired on him, because of the asteroids he struggled to get enough green moves off and by the end he still had four stress tokens.

Now he could of gone for ties instead but the decimator was on his tail all game firing four dice and steadily removing hit points, as a result his fire was ineffective without TL and focus.

Mara can also put a crimp with anything that gets close.

Kill the other guys big hitter first and he's got alot of hit points to chew through with what's left, don't underestimate the damage TL with expose can hand out.

I've yet to play or play against a Decimator but it doesn't seem like 16 hits points would last very long with 0 Agility. Ysane only kicks in for the last 11 hull at the most. If a Decimator isn't able to use EU to dodge arcs how does it manage to stay alive long enough to win? Is it only effective because 2 and 3 ship builds are currently popular?

Even against 5-6 ship builds I haven't had serious problems. You fly into a ship regularly to deny its attack, and with swarms the ships themselves are pretty fragile, so the vt one-shots them. So a 6 ship list is more like a 4 ship list, then Mara stresses everyone so they can't k turn and the vt kills another one while they get turned around. Use blockers to slow them down while they turn around so they can't all come to bear at once and the tv can pick them off piecemeal.

I will say, however, that a stress causing list would worry me. My typical builds with the vt I can deal with 1 stress a turn and just doing 2-banks. If the enemy could stress me himself it would completely shut down most everything the vt can do.

Well wave six must be depressing you then with the new cannons, unlike the missile it can stress big ships.

Good stuff Phild0! That was well summarized and analyzed. I have a similar build I'm working on and was torn on which to bring (pretty much the same build as you or the predator engine version). I may try the expose one before the stress builds get too crazy out there.

Slighty offtopic; I tried EI Expose Chiraneau, against a 5 ship rebel list. I avoided a lot of fire and crushed the rebels paired up with Whisper. Used the phantom just because this decimator build has swarms as a major counter, so Whisper counters my hard counter. Fair enough.

The game, itself, was weird. An asteroid cluster covered one half of the mat, the other half cleared. The rebel scum had Biggs, two advs blues and two bandits, started in the empty part of the surface prepared to joust, so the dance begun. I started facing the side. Whisper decloaked and hardturned in turn 2, and did most of the job from the side since the rebels went in majority following the VT-49. My rival wanted the decimator dead, and when I turnet facing his squad, I couldn't risk getting a stress and being predictable, so avoided the combo. Biggs got destroyed by whisper then and I received some punishment with Chiraneau, but kept full hull integrity. Next turn, I was facing the squad and gambled with an straight 4, but one blue barrel rolled into my path blocking me. Received only two damage since only the two bandits could attack. Whisper managed to blow another of the little buddies.

At this point I was winning, dancing between asteroids successfully, but pissed off. Got a console fire crit, and had to clear it. Once I did, my enemies were badly hurt by my unmodified decimator's attacks, and a deadly whisper. Next turn I was range 3 and wanted to get closer so didn't risk the stress. Long range shot without many consequences, didn't get damage.

The time limit was reached, I won. No expose + EI combo was used during the game, and I don't really know how to feel. I may give a shot to ruthlessness...

Edit: Don't post from your smartphone.

Very interesting experience! I guess the good thing to come out of this is that you won through good flying and Whisper, even without predator and engine, or using you expose, against one of the counters to this list. Which means if you were to use expose, it would have been even stronger. :-)

Thank you for all the responses. So far I have played two games with the Decimator and won both. However, had I played a more experienced player I think I would have lost both. I played against the same list twice which consisted of; Tarn Mison (R7)

Two rookie's (one with R5-P9), and two A-wings with Chardaan Refit.

I used Commander Kenkirk (EU and Ysanne Isard) and two Gamma bombers with concussion missiles and a proton bomb each. The engine upgrade was ok but it really only helped maybe two rounds in the whole game...maybe thats my fault though. I received a crit early on the decreased Kenkirks agility by one in the first round of the game. After several attempts using an action to role a hit to turn that card face down I gave up and just target locked enemy ships...So I didn't use Kenkirks ability the whole game. Ysanne quickly showed she was worth every point. I found this list lacking in fire power after the initial round of missile fire. I had trouble getting enemy ships off the board after that.

The next game I dropped the EU are picked up a weapons engineer. I also brought a royal guard tie interceptor and a saber squadron interceptor both pushing the limit. (they were both awesome by the way) I never one thought that an EU would have helped me this game. The sad part of the game was that my opponent was able to do 7 points of damage before Kenkirk or Ysanne's abilities could help. Sure they kicked in the following round but by that time 2/3 of my decimator is gone. Granted I happened to draw a few double damage crit cards during that nasty round. I think I would have gotten more out of predator the weapons engineer.

Possible future lists

- Patrol leader with two tie defenders ( very tanky build and complements my playing style as I like to k turn)

- Kenkirk + Predator + Ysanne, Backstabber, Mauler, Darkcurse.

- Oicunn, Doom shuttle, Backstabber, Mauler ( huge fan of backstabber)

- Oicunn, Vader and Maarek Stele in the tooled up advances when they come out.

Please critique these lists if you have the time. I know I can be successful with a phantom but I'm trying to make a competitive list with out one.

Good discussion and nice summary Phildo - I occasionally run a very similar Admiral + Whisper build but have Isaard and 99 points instead of Vader+Moff.

I can't add much to what has been said apart from a small point that I think has been overlooked or not mentioned yet with regards to the play style and build of The Admiral with Expose+EI. In my view the Exp+EI setup is a war of clever attrition where you must accept the Admiral will get beat up and will likely finish the game on his last couple of Hull or dead. Tag team is your friend if you can do it and they will be close games where your deployment, early moves and flight path will win or loose it for you.

I think the acceptance of taking significant hits for your centrepiece ship and not being able to arc dodge is a subtle change to how most of us play X-Wing and I found the concept a bit foreign early with the Exposed Admiral. The Engine Admiral arc dodges and the Exp+EI picks a good flight path and trades punches to see who is last man standing!

I enjoy playing both versions and both are good. As always though - it comes down to your preferred play style, match ups and which you think is the better all-rounder in your current meta.

The main disadvantage with expose is not loosing the agility but loosing the action instead. Along with taking up that valuable EPT slot.

Sure expose is better on the VT-49 than any other ship but that doesn't make it the best upgrade for the VT-49.

I don't think the conclusion from this thread is that expose is the best upgrade for the decimator, but more that expose is a good upgrade on parking with predator and engine.