Their thinking is that they have to "match" me to "even the odds". I didn't want to hold the game up, so I didn't press the issue while we were playing, but it is something I would like to address before our next session.

I already plan to point out other uses of destiny points (they are new to the system), as well as explain as the GM I am not going to just match them. I also plan to explain the dice probabilities and how it isn't a one for one match.

I thought there was a thread here about why wouldn't the GM just flip when the players flip, every time. Maybe it was in the Google+ group. I'm not an advocate of that, however I had never thought of it from the other way around (player's just waiting for the GM).

Any tips to help break my players out of this trend? I'd prefer to avoid house ruling only one side can flip per roll. I just want my players to understand they don't have to save the points to "counter" me, which is their current strategy.

Just some possible ideas

Try a session or two where you tell the players you won't use any dpoints.

Try a session or two where the players start with no dpoints.

Try a session or two where the players start with all the dpoints.

Try a session or two where the players can't use dpoints on the same roll the gm uses one.

Try a session or two where the players MUST activate any force power they roll a force die for. (Also good for conflict chickens).

Set the players up where they need to either use a dpoint to make a fact or fail the adventure.

The thing is that it really doesn't counter you. Adding a chance for despair on rolls where there normally isn't one is sort of a big deal, and it isn't negated by a triumph. I once spent 5 destiny points to upgrade each of the players' difficulties on a stealth check. This resulted in each of them rolling a despair. All 5 players rolled a despair off that upgrade. Just imagine the possibilities.

The way I generally prefer to spend destiny points: remember that when you spend a destiny point it upgrades the difficulty. If they are rolling some reds but no purples, upgrading the difficulty adds a purple die. This is huge. Melee attack against Adversary 2? I drop a destiny point and add a purple. Opposed check against someone with 2 skill and 2 characteristic? I drop a destiny point and add a purple. While they can do this too, unless their skill and stat just happens to be equal, you're getting far more mileage out of the destiny point than they are - upgrading a green to a yellow just isn't as good as straight up adding a purple.

Also, your thought to remind them of the other uses for destiny is a good one. I sorta had this issue for a couple sessions at the start, but then the players figured out that they could use destiny points for other things.

1. We have a couple Force users. Now that they have a couple Force powers, they use destiny points occasionally to use dark side points on the Force dice.

2. They took some of the amazing talents that require destiny point use. If your players avoid taking those talents just so they can horde destiny points to balance against you, they're seriously gimping themselves.

3. I started suggesting uses for destiny points. One time the players walked out into a freezing snowstorm. Luckily (due to the destiny point expenditure), they remembered to bring their cold weather gear even though no one mentioned it. Several times, they've used it to add things to the map to take cover behind. If they didn't think of something or want to add something where you haven't already described it, have them spend a point for it.

So, really it's not a problem for us anymore. If my players really wanted to horde them to "balance" against me, they can go for it. It will just never be in their favor because I spend my destiny points at opportune times and because they are foregoing the other uses for destiny points.

I don't personally have this problem (my players are usually fine spending DPs when they want to), but if I did, I'd take two tacks, one after the other if the first didn't work:

As for Awayputurwpns' first point, a simple rival can have a profound effect on combat, as a rival is in essence another player. My players were sweating blood when they encountered a single cyber-nexu as I had pumped its characteristics a bit to match the partys' capabilities.

Lead by example and use a DP every time it makes sense, if you run out then the players can hold on to them or use them.

If after a session or two where they end up with the whole pool of DPs point out the following: "This is a cooperative game, we are telling a story together. I am not the enemy, I am the lead story teller. I understand that if you have played another RPG or are used to playing more traditional games you may not appreciate this. But every black DP I use can make the story more dangerous and as a result far more exciting. Similarly a white DP can make you character do something more heroic and far more exciting. Star Wars is Space Opera and Adventure, give it a chance. The more you use the better it all gets."

You can reinforce the idea here by opening up the reading of the dice to the players more, perhaps now and again ask the players what they would do with the results, good and bad, as you involve them more in the narrative they will see that the game isn't you versus them. "Wow, nice dice roll, I wasn't expecting that. What would you do with that?"

I found that my players tended to be both creative in the story telling and conservative in the use of the dice. As such I found I would fine tune the results and give them back an advantage or two and use those to make their story more dramatic.

Don't think of DP as mechanical game components. Think of them as something that can make the narrative bigger.

My players were cautious about using them and it came to the point I had to explain that it's a narrative game and there is supposed to be an ebb and flow for all the reasons people have already outlined above. My next move if they hoarded again was going to be "use 'em or lose 'em" and simply flip them all over to black so I wouldn't be locked out, but luckily so far they've taken the narrative explanation to heart.

Flip them a lot when you can, all the time, they'll get in the habit of doing the same when they see you doing it. No real need to overthink it, just do that to get them in the habit of using them and once you've gotten over that hurdle then ask them to add some narrative flair after you've gotten them into the habit of using them.

Flip them a lot when you can, all the time, they'll get in the habit of doing the same when they see you doing it. No real need to overthink it, just do that to get them in the habit of using them and once you've gotten over that hurdle then ask them to add some narrative flair after you've gotten them into the habit of using them.

This won't work. They aren't just hoarding them. If I flip, they immediately flip in response. Unless the pool is all black, this is possible every single time. So me flipping liberally just means they will be just as liberal. They are not afraid to use them, they feel they have to use them to "even the odds" when I do it as the GM.

So when you flip one, you make up some narrative fluff for doing it, and if they go to use one, require them to do the same or they aren't allowed to flip it.

So when you flip one, you make up some narrative fluff for doing it, and if they go to use one, require them to do the same or they aren't allowed to flip it.

I was starting to think of something like this. I appreciate the advice!

Also consider doing a session where you flip Destiny Points *only* for narrative reasons, but not to upgrade the difficulty of a dice pool.

This would be a way to demonstrate that the points can have fun impact on the narrative and aren't strictly a dice mechanic.

Maybe they're approaching long, narrow bridge over a chasm. Describe the bridge and if they cross it, flip a Destiny Point and say "As you step toward the bridge, you can tell that it's extremely weak and would probably collapse under your weight. You might need to find a way over it."

If they're negotiating with a crimelord, let them roll their dice pools as normal, then flip a Destiny Point and say "Suddenly the doors are broken in and you hear 'This is the CorSec authorities, everyone drop your weapons!'".

Give the players situations like "The Aqualish infochant you're pursuing dives into the water and begins to escape. If you like, you could flip a Destiny Point to say you've got rebreathers so you can follow him."

Or "You've found a gangster who's willing to talk to you, but he looks uncooperative. You could flip a Destiny Point to say that he's got some mutual background with one of the characters, it could turn him into an ally."

Focusing on non-dice uses of Destiny Points might be a fun way to re-educate your players about how much fun they can add to a game.

When we started playing, all the PCs agreed to horde the destiny points so that I wouldnt have any to spend. It took them a long time to realize that the destiny points are tools for everyone to use and that although hording them is an option it does make for some boring times. Also, stop calling them destiny points and start calling them "fun cookies".

"You will join us, Skywalker...it is your FUN COOKIE!"

...no, doesn't work.

Honestly, at least they're using the destiny points rather than hoarding them. All they're really doing is decreasing the odds of rolling a blank face on one die and increasing the odds of a "triumph + despair" result...

They are not afraid to use them, they feel they have to use them to "even the odds" when I do it as the GM.

Fine - use the GM Fiat of just upgrading the difficulty more. Throw some Nemesis in the mix, keep an eye out for "Hey, this roll should probably be tougher than your standard purples" and so on. Don't try and match them blow for blow.

My players have been having the opposite problem - they use up their light side destiny points and I fail to use the dark side ones.

It is important for me to get into the habit of using the dark side destiny points so that they flow back to the PCs.

My players have been having the opposite problem - they use up their light side destiny points and I fail to use the dark side ones.

It is important for me to get into the habit of using the dark side destiny points so that they flow back to the PCs.

I had the same issue myself. I'd build the encounters to be pretty difficult, so that I felt bad about using Destiny Points to make them even *more* difficult. So I'd end up with a full pool of unused Dark Side points.

I started changing the Skill Checks the PCs were facing to be lower by one difficulty, but often using Destiny Points to upgrade difficulties and throw in the option of a Despair to have fun with.

I think both my players and myself make sure to have at least one Light/Dark left. For whatever reason

I start flipping them during a combat encounter and usually use them all

I have the points on the group sheet right next to the dice pile in order not to forget using them.

My players do use them whenever they are making a test that they think is important and I encourage the use in a situation such as: "Did I bring so-and-so?" "I don't know... did you?" *points at light side point*

You could also flip a Destiny point, then make a secret roll behind the GM screen, grin menacingly, and not tell them what you just rolled for! They will freak out! You don't even have to actually be rolling for anything, just roll some dice!

Then when they try to counter you, tell them they must explain specifically what they are rolling for. That way they really have no idea what you just did but they will be forced into action other than countering you.

I had one player that refused to use destiny points and one that used them every single check. I countered them both by making a temporary rule that you could use one, then had to wait until everyone else did to use it again. This got that Player sort of into a peer pressure mode by the Player that wanted to use them all the time.

Now sessions later with that rule gone, both use them and make dramatic events happen.

Also, consider using them on rolls they have a very high likelihood of making anyway. Then, when they say they're using them, you can ask "are you sure, you've already got ___" this may help them disconnect your use from "oh crap, we better succeed at this."

In addition, using them on checks that are not critical, but could produce something entertaining with a despair are good ones to increase for the same reason.

I was thinking of making them permanent burns. Once you use it the token is gone until next game.

You know, our table had talked about this during our first couple games, but ultimately they just didn't do enough to make that feel right. Honestly, rolling YYG instead of YGG has a good chance of just not doing much. It also adds to the hoarding tendency, as you want to save them for 'important' rolls.

A lot of the best sessions we've had are ones where both sides have used two or three times the entire pool's worth of points during the game.

I was thinking of making them permanent burns. Once you use it the token is gone until next game.

Not sure if you ever played Saga Edition, but those per-level Force Points and Destiny Points were a very frustrating part of the system. You could do some cool and very cinematic stuff with them, but for the the most part they got hoarded because they were so precious. They just didn't get used (especially the Destiny Points) except when it felt mechanically necessary. Plus, you had players saving that last Force Point just in case they needed to stop themselves from dying.

Far better is this system with the zero-sum Destiny Pool. An upgrade is powerful, but not once-per-session powerful. The Destiny Point really feels so much better constructed than in the previous Saga Edition.

But I would be interested to hear the reasons behind wanting to make them permanent burns!