Overlord turn begins, he collects his threat, draws his cards then looks to spawn something. Those pesky heroes have line of sight to the entire dungeon! Then Overlord hatches a plan...

Could he play a dark charm, Before spawning? Possibly killing a hero, and then spawn in the newly opened area?

What's the trigger for Dark Charm?

i would say yes, because both cards say "play at the start of your turn" and if i remember correctly, the FAQ says, when there are 2 cards with the same trigger, you can choose which card to play first.

BigYogi

The rules also say that you can only play one [event] card per triggering event (I'm paraphrasing) I'm guessing spawn cards are special since they have their own step in the overlords turn (going back to base game rulebook).

I guess you couldn't say play a gust of wind, and then a dark charm on the same turn (they both say play at beginning) but playing either one, and then spawning is legal (?)

You are actually allowed to play one EVENT card, one SPAWN card, one TRAP card, and one POWER card at the start of your turn. I don't know what version of the rules I have, but my version is fairly explicit about it. One of each type, specifically mentioned like above, may be played at the start of the turn if that is there trigger (threat providing).

I may be recalling it wrong, but wasn't there some clarification that you could play "start of turn" cards anytime before activating your first creature? If that's the case, I don't see anything wrong with your plan.

NigelTufnel said:

Yes, there is.

The question is: Is the attack some kind of "activation" that happens after all "start-of-turn"-effects (similar to the activation of am monster) or does the "dark charms" attack happen immediately in the "start-of-turn"-phase? If the second version is the case, then there isn't anything wrong with your plan. If the first version is the true one, then your plan wouldn't work.

Is there something that suggests to you that the effect of Dark Charm would take place later during the overlord's turn, rather than immediately?

nope. Seems pretty legal to me.

It's definitely legal to play dark charm before you spawn. Start of turn for overlord means before the first monster is activated and the order is whatever the OL decides. Based on this, though...the feat card that gives Aura 4 could be played after a spawn is played...which makes it a lot more useful...

Also, you could play both Dark Charm and Gust of Wind at the start of the same turn, because Gust of Wind is an event card and Dark Charm is a TRAP card.

With respect to Feat cards I have an additional point:

If the Feats are to be played "at the start of the OL´s turn", it is the OL´s choice of the order of the effects to take place (according to base rules, which had been clearly written for hero players but should be valid for the OL player as well). This can be crucial with "we are not afraid" (OL loses 4 threat). I always ask "any start of turn Feats?", if not, then I proceed with my start of turn actions (collect threat, draw cards, play cards). If the heros want to play such a Feat, I decide the order, i.e. "We are not afraid" would always come first if I had less than 4 threat, and the Aura Feat would clearly come last (yet the order would have no effect in that case, since activation of monsters comes after the card).

Just my reading of the rules, though.

I think it counts as the start of the overlord's turn until the first monster is activated. It seems perfectly legal to wait until the OL has collected threat for the turn to play that feat.

I tend to think of the cards as interrupt effects and "start of turn" as the time window in which they can be played. Requiring everyone who wants to play a card to play it immediately, and then let the overlord choose the order in which to process them, seems pretty weird. If you want to play an event card and a spawn card, do you also declare them both, pay the threat costs for both, and then resolve their effects?

I swear at some a point, either in the GLoAQ or the FAQ, or maybe it was just on here we came to a determination of what happens when the OL and Heros both have a Start of Turn effect during the OL's turn. Wish I could find it.

Antistone said:

Well, the heros also get the choice of the most favorable order, e.g. if having a Rest order and a Bleed or Burn token on them, they would always resolve the Rest order first. The difference is that in the heros´ case all effects are known, so it is simple to determine an order.

In the OL´s case it depends which and how many cards are played. It most cases it doesn´t make a big difference (the threat example being the most important in my view and only if the OL has less than 4 threat or if multiple "Not afraid" Feats are played in that turn) - in your example where would be the difference if I payed first for both, then put the cards into effect, instead of paying and putting into play one after the other?

Besides, paying and delaying effect would not be in the sense of the rules, so you would see which cards are to be played (OL and Feats) and then determine the order in which you resolve the individual cards (resolving meaning paying and putting into play of course).

@ Remy, I am not aware of such a statement, would be good if you could dig it up.

Parathion said:

Example from this thread--you'd have to commit to playing the spawn card before you resolved Dark Charm, and so if the Dark Charm fails to kill the target, you end up having to spawn the monsters in useless positions (or not spawn them at all), rather than saving the card and the threat for a later turn, or spawning smaller/faster monsters instead.

I still think there's a difference between a start-of-turn effect and an interrupt effect that is allowed to occur at the start of the turn. We know that a guard order takes effect immediately upon declaration even if the heroes use it during the overlord's "start of turn," because it isn't a start-of-turn effect, it just happens to occasionally get used within that window. (We "know" this because there's an example in the FAQ of using a guard to interrupt a Dark Charm, which would be impossible if the overlord got to choose the order due to both happening at the start of his turn.) If the heroes want to use "Preventing Evil" in response to Dark Charm to try to cancel the card, can the overlord choose to also play Gust of Wind during the start of his turn, then decide that the feat should be resolved after Gust of Wind and thereby protect his Dark Charm?

Every other card in the game is treated as an interrupt effect (with the arguable exception of cards that don't have any immediate effect at all, like powers). I don't see why cards with a "start of turn" trigger should be treated differently.

Antistone said:

+1 to Antistone's line of reasoning.

Seems to be reasonable.

The only example in which I insisted on selecting the order were indeed the "not afraid" Feats.

Note on the Preventing Evil example: This is a reaction to a certain card, so by playing another card and changing the order I wouldn´t be able to connect the PE to a more convenient target.

Yet I see that my way of playing can lead to quirky results.

I think I will delight my players in the next session by setting these issues right....