I had an epiphany thinking about this last night. First of all, can it all be agreed that X-wing named pilots are generally great? Few outliers there, but most great.

Just like E-wing, Defender and Phantom named pilots.

The X-wing has an astromech, like an E-wing. Hey, Knave and Blackmoon pilots, what do you think about X-wing generics being overcosted? "beach please". Yeah, that's what I thought.

TIE Defenders are a bit overcosted apparently, which is a shame as my Delta trio with ions is fun. But there we go.

Phantoms... Well really apart from 6 Sigma, who uses anyone other than Echo and Whisper?

Maybe the problem is becoming that named are just better than generics in a post wave 4 world.

Pre wave 4 Rookies and blues were insanely popular, now all of a sudden named abilities and combinations are taking over. Maybe this is just as planned? Maybe this is balance?

I don't think the X-wing needs updating. Sure cheaper astromechs wouldn't hurt, sure a rogue squadron card would rock - for fluff reasons, but even then i'd rather see a 12 deck pack of rogue squadron named pilot cards.

Difficult to see...always in motion, the [balance] is.

I had an epiphany thinking about this last night. First of all, can it all be agreed that X-wing named pilots are generally great? Few outliers there, but most great...

Wedge = Awesome

Wes = Good

Luke = Good

Jek = Don't know, never tried him

Garvin = Good

Biggs = Awesome

Hobbie = Good

Tarn = Awesome

Add astromechs and EPT's to taste. Have I missed anyone?

Ok, good to awesome then. Nitpicky. Either way they ain't bad. (Fells Wrath, Lynard Crynard, pre update Maarek Stele).

But (he says as he gets upon his soap box) making everything balanced is, in my limited opinion, the exact opposite of distinction/differentiation. If everything is balanced everything is the same.

By this logic, the way to differentiate the X-wing is to give it +6 attack.

Balancing is making ships equally effective when used properly relative to their point cost. The Z-95 and the B-wing are both balanced ships, and they're also very different.

Yes that would certainly make it distinctive you are correct. I think most people would agree that would be a rather extreme and somewhat ridiculous ability though. One would also allow it to fly backwards but I wouldn't recommend that either. I'm not sure if you misunderstood the point I was trying to make or if we are comparing differing semantics.

I do however think I understand what you mean "Balancing is making ships equally effective when used properly relative to their point cost". I just don't think it is a easy as people are making it out to be or even possible within the scope of what we have. You have 5 ships (A, B, E, X, Y) with limited slots/upgrades. People insists on ignoring pilots abilities (why???) since the basic ship 'seems' (my sarcasm) to need to be equal all others ships point for point. With 10 craft (because you want them to distinctive from the Empire and that doesn't count S&V) and with only so many things you can tweak we are going to run into hard walls. In my limited experience what I've seen with this logic is that fixes, leads to more fixes that lead to power creep that leads to left behinds ships which leads to more fixes and so on...

Not all ships have to be balanced (my opinion but since it's mine it must be a good one). Certain ships may never be balanced point for point but may play an invaluable role in certain missions . Note, yes I prefer missions/scenarios with prebuilt squads over 100 point skirmish as a general rule, yes I do like skirmish too.

Would it be nice to have the X-Wing be the most ubiquitous Rebel fighter, absolutely!!! Do I think the B-Wing replaced it and shouldn't have. Yep! But I have a sinking feeling we will very soon be needing more fixed. We're going to need to buff the TIE L/n, then sooner or later the Falcon then. How do you build for lore 'they didn't make as many' or 'this was the ship they used most often do to supply etc'? How about for every 2 X-Wings you make field one other fighter or support craft. You know, I could get behind this rule.

I do like some of your thoughts. Maybe we'll find the balance (in the force ) you're talking about though I doubt is the 6 attack die your suggesting (yes I know you were being sarcastic).

A mechanic to addressing the [pick your choice of ship] generics is to create a Title with a Pilot Skill cap or non-unique status.

In the case of X-Wing you could have a “Rogue Squadron Candidate” (pick whatever wording makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside) Title: non-unique X-Wing only. Blah, blah, blah.

(I am not wading into whether the X-Wing needs help, only as a mechanic that breathes new life/potential into the generics.) Whether that is best accomplished via point reduction or whatnot I will leave up in the air.

As a second issue, I do like the use of the S-Foils as a thematic element for making an option to increase the versatility of the X-Wing, as I personally love running X-Wing - just for the flavor.

RogueMorgan

Just saw something else where.

Are we basically talking about fixing the X-Wing because B-Wing see more game time than the X-Wing.

But my thought is:

Is the X-Wing out of balance to the TIE Fighter?

If we fix the X-Wing will we need to fix the TIE to make sure it is balanced?

Just saw something else where.

Are we basically talking about fixing the X-Wing because B-Wing see more game time than the X-Wing.

But my thought is:

Is the X-Wing out of balance to the TIE Fighter?

If we fix the X-Wing will we need to fix the TIE to make sure it is balanced?

Just saw something else where.

Are we basically talking about fixing the X-Wing because B-Wing see more game time than the X-Wing.

But my thought is:

Is the X-Wing out of balance to the TIE Fighter?

If we fix the X-Wing will we need to fix the TIE to make sure it is balanced?

Every wave since Wave 1 has been FFG trying to balance the rest of the game to bring it on par with the TIE Fighter. The original TIE is their most glorious mistake.

And what stats the Tie Fighter should have instead in your hubmle opinion?

My post, not meant as sarcasm, was a real question. If you boost the X-Wing will people feel that the TIE will in turn need a boost to say viable?

But since you asked. IMHO neither the X-Wing nor the TIE Fighter needs any buffing. Well except on the spot right under the left wing where you can still see a little waxy build up. Other than that, I'm good.

If you boost the X-Wing will people feel that the TIE will in turn need a boost to say viable?

I don't think so. Everyone seems to agree that the Tie Fighter is a great ship and well worth the points, not everyone thinks that about the X-Wing.

So if you accept the idea that the X-Wing is overcosted, then no there's no need to do anything to the Tie Fighter.

IMO I think the X-Wing is a point too high. I think it's clear that when James made the game he set the cost of a X-Wing at 21 points to avoid 5 rookies, which means that all X-Wings are likely 1 point too high.

Maybe 1 point too much (generics only!). Much like many of the ships, I think more options are where the need is. More astros will slowly roll in but torps are pretty bad (outside of flechette). I'd worry, much like the advanced and Vader, that any adjustment to the general would make a few elites VERY strong.

And whoever suggested more attack dice should get to a hospital quick...I think you're delusional.

When I do take a rebel list it almost always has a named x in it. They are valuable and their abilities, when flown well, are well worth their cost.

All that being said: the game is named after them. They should be a feature in most rebel lists

If they would do a point reduction ala chardaan refit, they should make it generic pilots only and make it unique or limited with a cost that would still prevent 5 xwings from being fielded at once.

What we'll probably get is a title with some ability worth roughly 4 points, but only costing 1-2 points.

I wonder if there's a good mechanic for trading a shield for a reinforce token?

What we'll probably get is a title with some ability worth roughly 4 points, but only costing 1-2 points.

I wonder if there's a good mechanic for trading a shield for a reinforce token?

No. That is way too good. No non epic ship should have access to reinforce.

If they would do a point reduction ala chardaan refit, they should make it generic pilots only and make it unique or limited with a cost that would still prevent 5 xwings from being fielded at once.

Has anyone ever played five rookie X-Wings against say, an eight TIE swarm? Or a Fat Han, or some other currnetly high tier list? Are those five X-Wings on par with those list, too good or still not competitive? I'm just curious to know if this has been tested by someone from the community.

Maybe 1 point too much (generics only!). Much like many of the ships, I think more options are where the need is. More astros will slowly roll in but torps are pretty bad (outside of flechette). I'd worry, much like the advanced and Vader, that any adjustment to the general would make a few elites VERY strong.

And whoever suggested more attack dice should get to a hospital quick...I think you're delusional.

When I do take a rebel list it almost always has a named x in it. They are valuable and their abilities, when flown well, are well worth their cost.

All that being said: the game is named after them. They should be a feature in most rebel lists

Phantom attacks with 4 dice ,the top pilot filled with VI, Fire Control System, Advanced Cloaking Device, and 4 attack dice is only 39 points, very impredictable, and the only ship that can effectively hunt it in 1vs1 will cost at least 8 points more... with no 4 attack dice, no cloaking etc, no 4 defense dice while cloaked etc

I think an extra dice for Xwings in certain situations would be fair, or maybe a title that give the xwings the boost action, or whatever to give them a little more mobility

I'm sure that this has been suggested before and I simply missed it, but why not make a Rogue Squadron title simply do the same thing Prototype Pilot does but for the X-Wing instead?

Here's another crazy idea: With Tarn Mison, there is one unique pilot who costs as much as the generic Red Squadron pilot. So why not just add more unique pilots in the 20-25 range of points? Then the Rookie or Red Squadron pilot would not be fielded at all, but after all, every craft is piloted by an individual pilot.

Make one with an built in dead-eye, another who can get an evade instead of a focus, and I'm sure that there are enough other ideas, like discounts on torpedos, astromechs, and other stuff. This idea of fixing a ship really only helps the fixworthy ship, and it can be applied to any other ship, whose generixs need help, but the uniques are already solid.

If you boost the X-Wing will people feel that the TIE will in turn need a boost to say viable?

I don't think so. Everyone seems to agree that the Tie Fighter is a great ship and well worth the points, not everyone thinks that about the X-Wing.

So if you accept the idea that the X-Wing is overcosted, then no there's no need to do anything to the Tie Fighter.

IMO I think the X-Wing is a point too high. I think it's clear that when James made the game he set the cost of a X-Wing at 21 points to avoid 5 rookies, which means that all X-Wings are likely 1 point too high.

If that is really the case then it'll be interesting to see their fix. I do like the idea of 4 X-Wings in a 100 point game.

Here's another crazy idea: With Tarn Mison, there is one unique pilot who costs as much as the generic Red Squadron pilot. So why not just add more unique pilots in the 20-25 range of points? Then the Rookie or Red Squadron pilot would not be fielded at all, but after all, every craft is piloted by an individual pilot.

Make one with an built in dead-eye, another who can get an evade instead of a focus, and I'm sure that there are enough other ideas, like discounts on torpedos, astromechs, and other stuff. This idea of fixing a ship really only helps the fixworthy ship, and it can be applied to any other ship, whose generixs need help, but the uniques are already solid.

I don't know how many people would be on board with this fix since the generic is what the thread is about. But I'd be fine with it I think. If the X-Wing is a good all around then maybe it's the pilots that made a general ship great.

If they would do a point reduction ala chardaan refit, they should make it generic pilots only and make it unique or limited with a cost that would still prevent 5 xwings from being fielded at once.

Has anyone ever played five rookie X-Wings against say, an eight TIE swarm? Or a Fat Han, or some other currnetly high tier list? Are those five X-Wings on par with those list, too good or still not competitive? I'm just curious to know if this has been tested by someone from the community.

Too warm-up an "old" thread.

One of my first game was 2 X-Wing vs 4 TIE-Fighter. And it was a perfect match. 1 X-Wing is worth 2 TIE-Fighters. Perfectly balanced. But with all the expansions set, cards and new fighters, fixes, this doesn`t matter anymore.

With the S&V faction and perhaps the future Rogue Squadron we will see changes, and more options for the X-Wing.

If they would do a point reduction ala chardaan refit, they should make it generic pilots only and make it unique or limited with a cost that would still prevent 5 xwings from being fielded at once.

Has anyone ever played five rookie X-Wings against say, an eight TIE swarm? Or a Fat Han, or some other currnetly high tier list? Are those five X-Wings on par with those list, too good or still not competitive? I'm just curious to know if this has been tested by someone from the community.

Too warm-up an "old" thread.

One of my first game was 2 X-Wing vs 4 TIE-Fighter. And it was a perfect match. 1 X-Wing is worth 2 TIE-Fighters. Perfectly balanced. But with all the expansions set, cards and new fighters, fixes, this doesn`t matter anymore.

With the S&V faction and perhaps the future Rogue Squadron we will see changes, and more options for the X-Wing.

The game scales differently at lower point levels. At low point totals, more expensive ship perform better relative to the cheaper alternatives. At 100 points this is less of an issue. 1 X-wing is not worth 2 TIE Fighters in a 100 point squad. They never have been and never will be, unless / until some new release directly changes them.

If they would do a point reduction ala chardaan refit, they should make it generic pilots only and make it unique or limited with a cost that would still prevent 5 xwings from being fielded at once.

Has anyone ever played five rookie X-Wings against say, an eight TIE swarm? Or a Fat Han, or some other currnetly high tier list? Are those five X-Wings on par with those list, too good or still not competitive? I'm just curious to know if this has been tested by someone from the community.

Too warm-up an "old" thread.

One of my first game was 2 X-Wing vs 4 TIE-Fighter. And it was a perfect match. 1 X-Wing is worth 2 TIE-Fighters. Perfectly balanced. But with all the expansions set, cards and new fighters, fixes, this doesn`t matter anymore.

With the S&V faction and perhaps the future Rogue Squadron we will see changes, and more options for the X-Wing.

The game scales differently at lower point levels. At low point totals, more expensive ship perform better relative to the cheaper alternatives. At 100 points this is less of an issue. 1 X-wing is not worth 2 TIE Fighters in a 100 point squad. They never have been and never will be, unless / until some new release directly changes them.

Sorry I have to elaborate. I don`t talk about a 100 point squad. I mean our first game with the starter pack. Thats my experience with the game. 1 X-Wing = 2 TIE Fighters. in my humble opinion.

Right - I was replying to that. In a low point game, X-wings are a better value than what they are in a 100 point game. When fighting the cheapest units in the game, the X-wings will be less cost effective in a 100 point game than in a 50 point game.

Here's another crazy idea: With Tarn Mison, there is one unique pilot who costs as much as the generic Red Squadron pilot. So why not just add more unique pilots in the 20-25 range of points? Then the Rookie or Red Squadron pilot would not be fielded at all, but after all, every craft is piloted by an individual pilot.

Make one with an built in dead-eye, another who can get an evade instead of a focus, and I'm sure that there are enough other ideas, like discounts on torpedos, astromechs, and other stuff. This idea of fixing a ship really only helps the fixworthy ship, and it can be applied to any other ship, whose generixs need help, but the uniques are already solid.

I kind of love this idea, except that I don't want to have to buy a lot more X-Wing packs. If they released pilot cards though, I'd be all over it. Generics are fine, but unique pilots are always more fun the play.