For any other ship I'd probably be against such a simple 'fix', but how about just giving the x-wing another attack die? The ship is bristling with guns, it wouldn't be that anti-thematic to give it a fourth die. It needn't be a free upgrade either -- make it a title and give it an appropriate point cost.

For any other ship I'd probably be against such a simple 'fix', but how about just giving the x-wing another attack die? The ship is bristling with guns, it wouldn't be that anti-thematic to give it a fourth die. It needn't be a free upgrade either -- make it a title and give it an appropriate point cost.

Because Wedge, Luke, and most of the other named pilots dont need another attack die (wedge in particular...)

If you fix torpedoes you improve X wings, along with every other ordnance ship.

I would prefer to see an X-Wing fix come in that form.

If you fix torpedoes you improve X wings, along with every other ordnance ship.

I would prefer to see an X-Wing fix come in that form.

Ordinance in general. Not sure what they could do though.

But your suggestion is the best "fix" for the xwing I have seen yet...

If you fix torpedoes you improve X wings, along with every other ordnance ship.

I would prefer to see an X-Wing fix come in that form.

No, if you fix ordnance, then you mainly buff the 2-attack ships that can carry ordnance. The 3 attack ships would still see marginal benefit.

If you fix torpedoes you improve X wings, along with every other ordnance ship.

I would prefer to see an X-Wing fix come in that form.

No, if you fix ordnance, then you mainly buff the 2-attack ships that can carry ordnance. The 3 attack ships would still see marginal benefit.

If I could reliably get a focus and target lock while firing a single-use ion torpedo, I'd probably be willing to pay 3 points for it.

If you fix torpedoes you improve X wings, along with every other ordnance ship.

I would prefer to see an X-Wing fix come in that form.

No, if you fix ordnance, then you mainly buff the 2-attack ships that can carry ordnance. The 3 attack ships would still see marginal benefit.

For clarity, 'fixing ordnance' doesn't mean 'bring the ordnance cost in line with it's current effectiveness'. If that's your idea of fixing it, then yes, you are really only buffing 2-Attack ships.

In my mind, the whole ordnance mechanic is bad because it's just an expensive way to throw dice at something. A much better way to throw dice is just to have more dice in general or make the dice you have inherently better. As you well know.

Ordnance needs to interact with friendly and enemy ships in an entirely different way. Bombs/Mines are a good example of this.

The X-Wing has no problems throwing dice at ships. That's not the 'fix' it needs. It needs to be able to do something else as well. Maneuverability has come up a few times in this thread. I've even suggested it once or twice. But the more I think about it the more I think super maneuverability is not the thing X-Wings need in order to define themselves. It's a better torpedo mechanic.

I've played a Store Championship yesterday with a XBBZ list and was the ONLY player (out of 20!) fielding a X-Wing (Wes Janson).

Other ships that were sadly missing: Tie Defender, Tie Advanced.

With the hyper-mobile Phantoms and big ships with Upgraded Engines the X-Wing is just too slow, too easy to kill and two of it's main advantages (Warheads and Droids) are mostly too costly, unique and/or inefficient.

For any other ship I'd probably be against such a simple 'fix', but how about just giving the x-wing another attack die? The ship is bristling with guns, it wouldn't be that anti-thematic to give it a fourth die. It needn't be a free upgrade either -- make it a title and give it an appropriate point cost.

Because it'd then outgun the TIE defender, TIE interceptor, B-wing and a whole host of other ships also bristling with guns and would hit as hard as a CR-90's turbolaser.

The problem with most fixes I have seen with ordnance are that they would make Missiles and Torpedoes more cost effective/more deadly against ALL targets- and I think that is WRONG and ANTI-THEMATIC.

Ordnance in the SW universe (like in our own) is specialized- a given weapon is made to take on a given target. Most(but not all) SW missiles and torpedoes are meant for dealing lots of damage to large/heavily armored/heavily shielded targets, not starfighters. They ARE single use weapons. They ARE expensive and in limited supply (at least for the Rebels), that is why they are not universally fitted to ALL ships on ALL missions. The weapon affects vs intended targets should make them cost effective but they should also be cost prohibitive (or effects less effective in general) against against targets they were NOT designed for.

Whatever fix FFG comes up with, I hope they keep that in mind.

They don't need astromechs or engine upgrades either, yet both exist. It's just a question of costing.

For any other ship I'd probably be against such a simple 'fix', but how about just giving the x-wing another attack die? The ship is bristling with guns, it wouldn't be that anti-thematic to give it a fourth die. It needn't be a free upgrade either -- make it a title and give it an appropriate point cost.

Because Wedge, Luke, and most of the other named pilots dont need another attack die (wedge in particular...)

You mean like the tie phantom already does? There's room in the game for another ship with a 4 die attack value, and the x-wing seems like the perfect candidate. With it's lack of barrel roll/boost and no cloak, it's going to feel much different than the phantom. I'm not concerned about it being overpowered -- it's going to have a hard time positioning without barrel roll or boost.

Make it a 5 point title. A repositionable wedge comes in a 39 points, approaching the cost of a yt-2400 + HLC + Outrider and significantly more than the phantom.

For any other ship I'd probably be against such a simple 'fix', but how about just giving the x-wing another attack die? The ship is bristling with guns, it wouldn't be that anti-thematic to give it a fourth die. It needn't be a free upgrade either -- make it a title and give it an appropriate point cost.

Because it'd then outgun the TIE defender, TIE interceptor, B-wing and a whole host of other ships also bristling with guns and would hit as hard as a CR-90's turbolaser.

Ok lets talk lore and the xwing. I see alot of posting about it. In the movies the only pilots that do anything but die to tie fighters. The named pilots are the backbone. So the same is true in the game. Just saying.

You mean like the tie phantom already does? There's room in the game for another ship with a 4 die attack value, and the x-wing seems like the perfect candidate. With it's lack of barrel roll/boost and no cloak, it's going to feel much different than the phantom. I'm not concerned about it being overpowered -- it's going to have a hard time positioning without barrel roll or boost.

Make it a 5 point title. A repositionable wedge comes in a 39 points, approaching the cost of a yt-2400 + HLC + Outrider and significantly more than the phantom.

For any other ship I'd probably be against such a simple 'fix', but how about just giving the x-wing another attack die? The ship is bristling with guns, it wouldn't be that anti-thematic to give it a fourth die. It needn't be a free upgrade either -- make it a title and give it an appropriate point cost.

Because it'd then outgun the TIE defender, TIE interceptor, B-wing and a whole host of other ships also bristling with guns and would hit as hard as a CR-90's turbolaser.

But how is that going to fix the issue of "no one uses the generics" that I thought was the whole issue here? You are making a ship everyone thinks is more expensive even more expensive. Has anyone been able to figure out what the value the company placed on another attack die? Especially one that i usable more than once in any situation?

Thats where we should start when we talk about costing your idea...

I think FFG should stop producing generic pilots. There's no need for them. I'd rather FFG invest in designing and playtesting new named pilots then going back and fixing generic pilots. Generics will always be boring, and the game is so much more interesting with pilots like Tarn replacing generic rookies.

You mean like the tie phantom already does? There's room in the game for another ship with a 4 die attack value, and the x-wing seems like the perfect candidate. With it's lack of barrel roll/boost and no cloak, it's going to feel much different than the phantom. I'm not concerned about it being overpowered -- it's going to have a hard time positioning without barrel roll or boost.

Make it a 5 point title. A repositionable wedge comes in a 39 points, approaching the cost of a yt-2400 + HLC + Outrider and significantly more than the phantom.

For any other ship I'd probably be against such a simple 'fix', but how about just giving the x-wing another attack die? The ship is bristling with guns, it wouldn't be that anti-thematic to give it a fourth die. It needn't be a free upgrade either -- make it a title and give it an appropriate point cost.

Because it'd then outgun the TIE defender, TIE interceptor, B-wing and a whole host of other ships also bristling with guns and would hit as hard as a CR-90's turbolaser.

But how is that going to fix the issue of "no one uses the generics" that I thought was the whole issue here? You are making a ship everyone thinks is more expensive even more expensive. Has anyone been able to figure out what the value the company placed on another attack die? Especially one that i usable more than once in any situation?

Thats where we should start when we talk about costing your idea...

I think FFG should stop producing generic pilots. There's no need for them. I'd rather FFG invest in designing and playtesting new named pilots then going back and fixing generic pilots. Generics will always be boring, and the game is so much more interesting with pilots like Tarn replacing generic rookies.

You mean like the tie phantom already does? There's room in the game for another ship with a 4 die attack value, and the x-wing seems like the perfect candidate. With it's lack of barrel roll/boost and no cloak, it's going to feel much different than the phantom. I'm not concerned about it being overpowered -- it's going to have a hard time positioning without barrel roll or boost.

Make it a 5 point title. A repositionable wedge comes in a 39 points, approaching the cost of a yt-2400 + HLC + Outrider and significantly more than the phantom.

For any other ship I'd probably be against such a simple 'fix', but how about just giving the x-wing another attack die? The ship is bristling with guns, it wouldn't be that anti-thematic to give it a fourth die. It needn't be a free upgrade either -- make it a title and give it an appropriate point cost.

Because it'd then outgun the TIE defender, TIE interceptor, B-wing and a whole host of other ships also bristling with guns and would hit as hard as a CR-90's turbolaser.

But how is that going to fix the issue of "no one uses the generics" that I thought was the whole issue here? You are making a ship everyone thinks is more expensive even more expensive. Has anyone been able to figure out what the value the company placed on another attack die? Especially one that i usable more than once in any situation?

Thats where we should start when we talk about costing your idea...

Fair enough...that is your opinion. But I dont think that will happen. Wars and battles are fought by more than just heroes. There is a place for the no names...and I liked the fact that, until recently, the generics were the go to pilots in most cases. The heroes get all the credit...but its the no names that win the war.

Disclaimer: I am not for really any of these fixes to make the generic xwings better...when/if it happens I look forward to the inevitable "Lets fix the Bwing" because their named pilots mostly suck.

Named pilots needn't be just heroes. I don't think of Tarn as a hero, nor any of the dozen other pilots I've never heard of. They're just dudes with interesting unique abilities that keep the game varied. There are very few named pilots I never play -- Arvel, Roark, and Lt. Blount are the three I can think of, but I'm sure there are squads where all three of these would be useful. (e.g. Once my gaming table and imperial raider arrives in a few months I'll be playing a lot more epic, and a lot more Roark..)

Fair enough...that is your opinion. But I dont think that will happen. Wars and battles are fought by more than just heroes. There is a place for the no names...and I liked the fact that, until recently, the generics were the go to pilots in most cases. The heroes get all the credit...but its the no names that win the war.

Disclaimer: I am not for really any of these fixes to make the generic xwings better...when/if it happens I look forward to the inevitable "Lets fix the Bwing" because their named pilots mostly suck.

If you fix torpedoes you improve X wings, along with every other ordnance ship.

I would prefer to see an X-Wing fix come in that form.

No, if you fix ordnance, then you mainly buff the 2-attack ships that can carry ordnance. The 3 attack ships would still see marginal benefit.

For clarity, 'fixing ordnance' doesn't mean 'bring the ordnance cost in line with it's current effectiveness'. If that's your idea of fixing it, then yes, you are really only buffing 2-Attack ships.

In my mind, the whole ordnance mechanic is bad because it's just an expensive way to throw dice at something. A much better way to throw dice is just to have more dice in general or make the dice you have inherently better. As you well know.

Ordnance needs to interact with friendly and enemy ships in an entirely different way. Bombs/Mines are a good example of this.

There are several fundamental way that Ordnance could theoretically be improved. In all of these cases, it would benefit 2-attack ships more than 3-attack ships, simply because the 2-attack ships gain a bigger incremental attack benefit than a 3-attack ship. This is mathematically unavoidable unless you somehow tie a new torpedo to the ship's existing attack value.

Yet another option is to give them another attack dice, but this doesn't fit the lore, and the X-wing doesn't want to turn into an even bigger glass cannon regardless of what the balanced cost would be.

The other is to lower the price, to at least 20, and ideally 19. Either way now you can field 5 of them. I'm not sure that's the ideal option, but it does buff the generics sightly more than the named pilots, which is good.

Another option is to make them more durable. This is my current implementation in my House Rules - give them a free Hull Refit title, X-wing only. Cost: 1 for Biggs / Wedge, 0 for all others. (The cost mechanic is funky, but its House Rules so it doesn't matter). This makes them less of a glass cannon, and pushes them close to Z-95 / TIE Fighter / TIE Advanced + AC jousting cost efficiency.

Just a minor comment. If you put some ordnance based on the Attacks value, the point cost would benefit more the 3 attack dice ship more than the 2 dice attack ship, since 3-4 is a bigger leap than 2-3 when it comes to facing agility. There is no middle ground where X attack dice ships would benefit equally than Y attack dice ships imho, except if you move away from the fixed costs, and do it on fashion it takes into account how much improves its dice attack pool.

If we think that most named pilots for the X-wing are good, then I don't really see the problem.
As far as I see it, any wave 1 ship need not be competitive(but they can be) when we talk about the non-named pilots.
As for the X-wing: The rookie and red are there for when filling up your squad when playing the game at beginner or intermediate level, when learning rules, basics and tactics. Then you as a player expand into all these other different ships. The game would be a bit boring if just running bunches of x-wings was the best option. As long as the named pilots stay viable,in advanced play, and you get to field your x-wing models at an advanced level of playing the game, then I am happy, if that means running biggs, luke, wedge, janson. Then sure, you can very easy build a good list with two named x-wing pilots in it.

Compare this to warhammer fantasy and 40k, where you have models that stay unuset for 4-5 years at a time, no matter what you do with them. The X-wing is in a good place IMHO

It is the X-Wing. I could forgive them for making any other ship in the game mediocre, but not the X-Wing. It is not outright bad, but that is never good enough for the iconic ship the game is named after. We are going to see swarms of Tie Advanced, but the X-Wing gets shunned. I don't like that one bit.

The X-Wing is, in terms of points values, an affordable ship. There are few ships that can carry astromech droids, and of those that can, the X-Wing is the ideal middle ground. The Y-Wing has maneuver issues and the E -Wing is very expensive. It is easy to imagine some astromech that grants an ability that is very attractive, and works best on an X-Wing. Perhaps some astromech could increase pilot ability during a combat round after a non-red maneuver. An astromech could increase the range of another ship's ability. OP made a point of comparing the X-Wing to the B-Wing; it is important to note that the B-Wing's strength comes ("flows"?) from its system upgrade slot, which allows Advanced Sensors. If that ability was granted by an astromech droid, Biggs Walks The Dogs would have been made with Y-Wings with Engine Upgrade...if at all. What I'm trying to say is that exact values might not be what makes a ship good, but that it could also be the right upgrade slot on the right ship.

Anyhow, X-Wings are in the next movie, so they will probably receive more options.

Is there a reason your house rule is for a free hull upgrade instead of a free shield upgrade?

Only partially correct. The X-wing does have significant problems throwing dice at ships and taking dice in return for its cost . There are several design approaches to improve the ship.

One is to turn it into a pseudo-interceptor. Note the conspicuous absence of Alpha Squadron Pilots in the competitive meta, which have better jousting efficiency than X-wings. So making X-wings move better at PS2 is highly unlikely to help them. Whether this would be warranted by the lore is also another discussion.

Yet another option is to give them another attack dice, but this doesn't fit the lore, and the X-wing doesn't want to turn into an even bigger glass cannon regardless of what the balanced cost would be.

The other is to lower the price, to at least 20, and ideally 19. Either way now you can field 5 of them. I'm not sure that's the ideal option, but it does buff the generics sightly more than the named pilots, which is good.

Another option is to make them more durable. This is my current implementation in my House Rules - give them a free Hull Refit title, X-wing only. Cost: 1 for Biggs / Wedge, 0 for all others. (The cost mechanic is funky, but its House Rules so it doesn't matter). This makes them less of a glass cannon, and pushes them close to Z-95 / TIE Fighter / TIE Advanced + AC jousting cost efficiency.

A free hull is more or less suffucient. I could run the numbers again with an extra shield instead, it would obviously be just slightly better.

Remember the time when every imperial players were panicking because of the X-Wing pilots and astromech coming with the transport? Good times...