Isn't firing outside of arc a turret?

So the fix is to put a turret on an X-Wing and call it something else so we won't recognize it.

I thought others were already upset at the proliferation of turrets. Why not give the X-Wing a turret, barrel role, two actions per turn and a free target lock? Then you'll see more of them.

Tie Pilot, the moment you include a fix, it will be an autoinclude. For any ship. A-wings and/or Tie advanceds. That's why it is a fix.

The reason why the Y-wing's title isn't an autoinclude, it's because it is not aimed to fix it, but to give it more roles than being an ionizer.

That's why one needs to be cautious with the word fix. The X-wing doesn't need a fix in the vein of the A-wing or Advanced, it needs a way out of the B-wing's shadow.

Disagree. And honestly, reading your article, i have not read any kind of postuling towards the oppossite.

For example, you talk about the XXBB.

- One X because of biggs.

- BB being daggers because that's the way to have an advantadge on the mirror match up or against PS3 Tie swarms. It wasn't worth the risk downing them to blues to get an extra blue. Because advanced sensors Bwings are actually amazing. Or were, in that meta.

- One X because you end up with 21 points only. There is nothing else that could fit in than a X at the time.

There is nothing else to read into it. There is "why did he take a rookie then". It fitted, and in wave 3, an Xwing wasn't bad against a default Bwing. As you point out, they had never been.

But the options have catched up with it. Either you get more reliable firepower from B-wings with FCS, better fighters in the case of Adv B-wings, or more cost effective fillers from either Generic B's, or Z's. Meanwhile the Xwings are never again the backbone of rebel lists.

So we probably see it differently, in what an Xwing should be. The B-wing is the knife fighter. The Z, is the cheap bumper. THe X should be the jouster. It's dial is actually presented in that fashion, it has a long K-turn, and a decent dial. What it lacks, is the point cost efficiency to be a jouster, due to the fear of 5 Xwing lists.

I actually don't like the direction people are asking for X-wings, between boosts or barrel roll, they are trying to turn the Xwing in something it isn't. That's why i liked the advanced fix, it made it an expensive reliable fighter, instead of just a cheaper one. It can dish out damage, like it was suppossed to for its cost.

And as i said before. Being autoinclude is not inherently wrong with a fix, that's why it would be a fix. You say the ship doesn't need a fix, but yet you acknowledge the displacement of the ship from more cost effective options. Nowadays the ship will even compete with Y-wings with the title for jousting potential (and lose badly), so yes, any "fix", whatever you do, will be an auto include, even if it's not about improving its potential, because it will define a role where the ship may excel, and it will continue to be the only one the ship can really accomplish. End result ? The only way you would field it would be because of that shoehorned role you just created, making it an autoinclude whenever you choose an X.

Cheers.

I'd agree that, if you're trying to outright buff the X-wing, it's important not to use the astromech slot. An astromech option that's underpriced such as to compensate for any overpricing of the X-wing becomes autoinclude and kills the astromech slot off. If you're trying to diversify the X-wing then the astromech slot is excellent, you give it a nice and powerful option but costed such that it isn't overly efficient compared to the other popular astromechs.

Personally I'm inclined to believe the X-wing needs options that improve its jousting ability and versatility (versatility being the X-wing's strength in lore) rather than effective recosting via an autoinclude buff. That's because I'm not convinced it's unviable, it's just that the B-wing is better than the X-wing at the X-wing's job.

However, I'm in agreement that anything the X-wing is given, option or buff, should be true to the X-wing: a lot of well-intentioned option or buff suggestions would turn it into something that's not an X-wing. The TIE/x1 title still keeps the x1 as an x1, an advanced prototype starfighter, and in fact improves its fit to the lore.

[...]

Personally I'm inclined to believe the X-wing needs options that improve its jousting ability

I see a lot of this, many threads. We need to improve it's merge (you call jousting) ability.

But, unless I'm mistaken, even the Math-Wingers say the merge numbers are just that and do not account for abilities, dials, upgrades, etc...

The game is more that flying into each other K-Turning and repeat. The math of the merge doesn't take tactics or synergies into account. Gee-Whiz guys.

More options? The X-Wing already has the best number of pilots out there. Weg, Wes, Luke, Biggs.

[...]

Personally I'm inclined to believe the X-wing needs options that improve its jousting ability

I see a lot of this, many threads. We need to improve it's merge (you call jousting) ability.

But, unless I'm mistaken, even the Math-Wingers say the merge numbers are just that and do not account for abilities, dials, upgrades, etc...

The game is more that flying into each other K-Turning and repeat. The math of the merge doesn't take tactics or synergies into account. Gee-Whiz guys.

More options? The X-Wing already has the best number of pilots out there. Weg, Wes, Luke, Biggs.

The named pilots are good, but they're also the named pilots, centrepieces. The X-wing is meant to be the staple craft of the Rebel Alliance and until late Wave 3 onwards it was. It's a durable brawler that can both deal and take damage. However, the X-wing has now been outclassed by the B-wing in that role, and it doesn't have anything to bring to the table (no pun intended) that the B-wing doesn't too.

The game is more that flying into each other K-Turning and repeat. The math of the merge doesn't take tactics or synergies into account. Gee-Whiz guys.

More options? The X-Wing already has the best number of pilots out there. Weg, Wes, Luke, Biggs.

It's true that MajorJuggler's jousting values are a simplification.

However, what can the X-wing do? Those values assume it shoots and is shot every turn, for a straightforward ship like the X-wing that's often the case. Jousting values fail for support ships (not support pilots, note) and arcdodgers, but the X-wing is neither.

Of its named pilots, two are stronger defence (Tarn, Luke), two are action economy (Hobbie, Jek), one is offense and three are support (Biggs, Wes, Garven). Of those, all but the supports serve to improve its power (how much damage it does compared to how hard it is to kill) compared to its cost. For the supports, Garven is woefully underused, Biggs is a special case and Wes is used to set up opportunist shots and now as a counter to ATC.

They've got some great synergies but with the exception of Biggs and Tarn they all live in the low thirties (Delta Defender territory), not in the low twenties. This is either because they cost that much off the bat or because they want upgrading. If you're going for these X-wings you'll end up with 3 ships. When you're looking for a reliable vessel in the 20pt range to round out your list you've got Rookie, Tarn and the B-wings. (Now the Gold BTL-A4 too.) Tarn's a unique pilot, so he works at 100pt, and yes, you could argue that if you want a decent twenties X-wing take him. However, the impression I get is that people want the generic X-wing, currently overshadowed by the B-wing, back. It's all well and good the X-wing having good 30pt named pilots, but it 's the generic rebel ship, X-wings versus TIE fighters. Those more interested in the game than the theme may not be bothered by this but a lot of people (based on forum responses) want to see the X-wing have more presence than an old, outclassed and obsolete ship that stubborn veterans fly and make dance.

[...]

Personally I'm inclined to believe the X-wing needs options that improve its jousting ability

I see a lot of this, many threads. We need to improve it's merge (you call jousting) ability.

But, unless I'm mistaken, even the Math-Wingers say the merge numbers are just that and do not account for abilities, dials, upgrades, etc...

The game is more that flying into each other K-Turning and repeat. The math of the merge doesn't take tactics or synergies into account. Gee-Whiz guys.

More options? The X-Wing already has the best number of pilots out there. Weg, Wes, Luke, Biggs.

Uh, jousting value is actually MORE important on the x-wing than most other ships, because it has so few actions and upgrades and a dial that is not special in any way.

Jousting really is all it has. And if even there it fails to achieve, what are we supposed to do with it then? You choose your dial with an X-Wing and that's it. It's at a clear disadvantage against any other ship out there. That's unacceptable and the main reason i don't play it anymore.

And when i hear people say the X-Wing should not get access to boost or barrel roll i really wonder what the reasoning behind that might be. Why should the X-Wing be literally the only ship of its price class that can't defend against enemy repositioning shenanigans? Thevreason for it probably is that it was a wave 1 ship when boost was not present in the game yet. But i have no idea why it should stay that way!

So again i would propose the S-Foils. Gives it more flexibility and endurance, and access to boost at least some turns. That's not asked too much!

Ehh, I'm not too sure about a bunch of X-wings moving around by flapping their wings. That being said, what you just said about the X-wing being the only small ship without a turret that lacks a reposition action other than the Z-95 hadn't occured to me.

And when i hear people say the X-Wing should not get access to boost or barrel roll i really wonder what the reasoning behind that might be.

Because people want the X-wing to stay an X-wing. Some would argue that it's not inappropriate to give it those actions, I personally would prefer it didn't, firstly to keep it distinct from the E-wing and secondly because I don't think it fits a ship that's played like it has since Wave I. I'd rather an upgrade/new generic pilot card that doesn't change how the X-wing handles and behaves. I still want it to the be the X-wing, I just want it to be the best at being an X-wing.

I'm pretty sure X-wings rolled around a lot in the OT, so I'm not sure why it was left out of the bar outside of initial Wave 0 balancing because the higher PS Xs would dodge Ties pretty often (especially if we're considering newer players)

The X-wing is a workhorse, sure, but it's also a decently maneuverable ship that could keep up with the Tie and that would have been accurately represented by the Tie Fighter's superior dial even if they both had B-rolls.

Would not have a problem with the B-roll making come-back, although I know a lot of opposing phantoms would be less enthused by a repositioning VI pilot

Can you explain to my why closing the wings suddenly makes it more agile? There is no atmosphere..

Lets leave bad video game mechanics out of this.

Let's leave the "well it did this is the OT so it should do it in the game" comments out as well. The Xwing captures it's utilitarian attributes nicely. From a wave 1 on perspective it's meant to get its defense through firepower.

Well ForceM, it is actually pretty simple. The Xwing has always been the completely straightforward fighter. No nifty tricks, just solid firepower, decent durability, decent dial. Jack of all trades, master of none. I would prefer to keep it that way, and improve either their firepower or durability, but not the mobility. Reducing its cost isn't out of the equation for me, but i can understand why some people don't prefer it. Tie pointed out how a reduction on astromechs would work, kinda of like what happens with missiles on A-wings right now, something that's actually sad.

It doesn't neccessarily fit the fluff, but there is enough stuff that doesn't match the fluff to really care about it (defender, cough, cough), i care about the ship design since the beginning being matched by a suppossed fix. You are free to disagree with me.

Edit - There are a lot of ideas in my head around it, and probably all of them bad.

The title/torpedo 1 point cost +1 hull that is posted back then.

Title that allows Xwings to focus + Target lock with the same action (freeing EPTs from predator, or and making generic Xwings more efficient at jousting withouth major overhauls).

A R7-T1 version only for Xwings, for 1 point. Boost only usable to get the ship you TL'ed into your firing arc. That way is for offensive purposes, and not so much for arc dodging.

Can you explain to my why closing the wings suddenly makes it more agile? There is no atmosphere..

Lets leave bad video game mechanics out of this.

Why do we hear sound during space combat in a Vacuum?

Why do the Fighter ships in Star Wars fly like athmospheric craft while performing space combat in the movies? You see them turnfighting, you see them perform flight maneuvers that would be pointless in actual space combat...

So, i propose it because the fluff of the movies, books, video games suggests that the X-Wing goes faster and therefore also more difficult to hit while the S-Foils are closed and has more firepower while the S-Foils are open.

And because i think it would make the most sense to remedy the current state of the X-Wing in this game.

So enhanced scopes lets you take your manoeuvre at PS 0. What if the x-wing got a title or somesuch that let it delay its manoeuvre until the start of the combat phase? Enemies would have trouble outmanoeuvring you (not knowing where you're gonna go) so the x-wing's 'lack' of manoeuvribility would no longer be an issue. You'd be more susceptible to blocking, but nothing a smart/experienced player couldn't deal with. Anyone feel that would help the x-wing out? I'd consider it 0 pts since its a bit of a double-edged sword. Perhaps using the word 'may' would make it more versatile...

Well ForceM, it is actually pretty simple. The Xwing has always been the completely straightforward fighter. No nifty tricks, just solid firepower, decent durability, decent dial. Jack of all trades, master of none. I would prefer to keep it that way, and improve either their firepower or durability, but not the mobility. Reducing its cost isn't out of the equation for me, but i can understand why some people don't prefer it. Tie pointed out how a reduction on astromechs would work, kinda of like what happens with missiles on A-wings right now, something that's actually sad.

It doesn't neccessarily fit the fluff, but there is enough stuff that doesn't match the fluff to really care about it (defender, cough, cough), i care about the ship design since the beginning being matched by a suppossed fix. You are free to disagree with me.

Edit - There are a lot of ideas in my head around it, and probably all of them bad.

The title/torpedo 1 point cost +1 hull that is posted back then.

Title that allows Xwings to focus + Target lock with the same action (freeing EPTs from predator, or and making generic Xwings more efficient at jousting withouth major overhauls).

A R7-T1 version only for Xwings, for 1 point. Boost only usable to get the ship you TL'ed into your firing arc. That way is for offensive purposes, and not so much for arc dodging.

I do indeed very politely disagree XD. But i think we are on the right track while discussing what can be done anyway, so no bad blood at all!

I could explain again why i think that ordnance, astromechs and new pilots would not be the solution, but i already have in previous threads.

It sums up like this. None of these solutions would give anything unique to the X-Wing, destroy upgrade flexibility or just not help the X-Wing in any form.

Also there are many "straightforward" ships and having access to boost or barrel roll is that common (as i have probably proven two posts ago) in this game that it's just a huge handicap not having it, and would absolutely not destroy the picture of a rugged, reliable design!

Let's leave the "well it did this is the OT so it should do it in the game" comments out as well. The Xwing captures it's utilitarian attributes nicely. From a wave 1 on perspective it's meant to get its defense through firepower.

So we shouldn't expect Star Wars to be Star Wars?

Can you explain to my why closing the wings suddenly makes it more agile? There is no atmosphere..

Lets leave bad video game mechanics out of this.

I will not start this discussion and just ask some counterquestions

Why do we hear sound during space combat in a Vacuum?

Why do the Fighter ships in Star Wars fly like athmospheric craft while performing space combat in the movies? You see them turnfighting, you see them perform flight maneuvers that would be pointless in actual space combat...

So, i propose it because the fluff of the movies, books, video games suggests that the X-Wing goes faster and therefore also more difficult to hit while the S-Foils are closed and has more firepower while the S-Foils are open.

And because i think it would make the most sense to remedy the current state of the X-Wing in this game.

Don't take it personally, it's just that the whole closing s foil to go faster is a major peeve of mine. Especially how they made the Tie Hunter to cash in on that silly idea. We never see them closing and opening the wings during combat in the films. If closing them gave them any advantage we would have seen it. The whole thing was a mechanic for the Nintendo games.

Also note I have nothing against giving them the upgrade mechanic you suggested. I just can't stand the name!

RecSpecMech?

Cute. Why not just make a mech for every crew member type and call the X-Wing fixed? Or did you not consider the Rebel Transport pack a fix?

What about a new mechanic to represent the training and teamwork that rogue squadron was known for, instead of tapping into existing upgrades

Rogue Squadron Pilot

PS 6 25pt, no EPT

"If there is another friendly X-Wing on the board, give each friendly x-wing a focus token at the start of the combat phase (stackable)"

What about a new mechanic to represent the training and teamwork that rogue squadron was known for, instead of tapping into existing upgrades

Rogue Squadron Pilot

PS 6 25pt, no EPT

"If there is another friendly X-Wing on the board, give each friendly x-wing a focus token at the start of the combat phase (stackable)"

Again with Focus over TL.

How about a title with something like this: "At the start of the Activation phase, choose one enemy ship at Range 1-3. If it has a red target lock token, you may acquire a target lock on that ship."

This requires you to set up a TL the previous turn and not use it, with the tradeoff being a round of TL+Focus shooting. Might be better to word it "After you reveal your dial", since that would make it easier for the X-wings to get in range. I wouldn't hazard a costing, and the range could easily be restricted.

Plus it's totally fluffy with the X-wing books and their love of sensor-data sharing.

I think the x-wing needs to do something different, try this:

Title 0/1 pts

Rogue squadron x-wing

Your upgrade bar gains an additional <torp> slot your <torps> are -2 cost, do not spend your target lock when attacking with <torps>.

Now it does something different than any other ship while retaining that X-wing feel. Maybe drop one of the buffs if its too powerful, I don't think it is though.

If you want it to be a better jouster you need to give it a lance! And here is how,

Linked fire - modification x wing only

if the range rule when paced between the numbs on the front of the base passes over the base of the targeted ship gain an extra attack dice, primary weapon only.

Thematic with the four lasers cannons autosomal but powerful and could be used on any x wing.

I am a firm believer in the X-wing being more resilient. I know that the +1 hull has been advocated reasonably strongly, but realistically it makes no sense that the X-wing has more hull than the B-wing. Conceptually I agree with the +1 hit point hypothesis, but it should be an extra shield, not a hull (points differential be damned).

If an X-wing has 3 hull and 3 shields, then the X- and the Y- have the same level of shielding. Similarly, if the X-wing has 3 hull and 3 shields, then the X- and B-wing have the same level of hull. There is a nice symmetry going on between the 3 ships (points cost aside).

As to the recon spec mech. Sure it's great on Garven and helps out by making the ship better in general, but it also becomes a default option to only ever use focus as an action. You don't want to overshadow TL so that it never gets used.

I think the better alternative solution is the "Dark Curse" astro. 3pts (2 if aggressively costed, though note only one card that grants a free action is less than 3pts currently). When you perform a green maneuver, you may perform a free focus action. By making it an action you prevent doubling down on focus and keep target lock as a viable action. It is also a great bump insurance card. For the X-wing this helps by improving torpedoes, and letting them use TL for offence and focus for defence. For Y-wings it lets them use Blaster Turret as a viable option (much like the agromech does for scum). And for the E-wing it lets do a focus/evade, or focus barrel roll action set. Since it is a droid many of the named pilots have better options to use so it doesn't become a default droid for everyone. I really like this droid because it helps everyone in some unique way, though you can argue that X-wing is helped the least by it and that is fair criticism. I don't the droid becomes ubiquitous whatever the case.

I see a lot of people suggesting boost or barrel roll actions for the X-wing. The key here is they are already available, so really all you want is a price discount. For sure, this would be effective as an absolute fix for making the X-wing more viable, but it throws up all sorts of relative gameplay and fluff inconsistencies. If the X-wing can boost, what is the advantage that the much faster Interceptor or A-wing has? In a sense it is just tacking on something to make the X-wing better, while not considering how it affects the balance of all the other ships on the field. Mechanically it works, but thematically it fails.

I'd like to see a generic Rogue Squadron pilot, PS 6, EPT 24 points, but I don't think it solves anything really.

Anything that reduces costs of other attachments just makes unique pilots better than they already are. For example, reducing the cost of mods seems like an interesting option (even though the X-wing exactly known as a customisable fighter), but it juste helps out Biggs and Wedge, etc. more so than the generics. Though this would lead into the potential to take cheaper shield upgrades (as per the +1 shield hypothesis) it is likely that it would just default to free/cheap engine upgrades instead.

S-foils as a concept have merit (though B-wings also possess them), any solution that involves "wing flapping" as it is known is seems like a poor concept. We have no real tangible evidence they were ever used in this way (accepting video game evidence). S-foils don't seem like the right option either, they would presumably improve attack power, not defence, which is what the X-wing really needs. So if we remove offence/defence alternation, then potential you could make the S-foils improve offence by allowing them to reroll an attack dice, much like predator. Advantages, it helps torpedoes, and general offence, but overrides the need to TL. Predator has already proven to be a very effective EPT, giving it to all X-wings for free might not be the best solution.

More time on the board to make use of it's increased attack power is the goal (or at least my goal). This is the advantage B-wings have over X-wings and why X-wings aren' seen all that often. A B- can face concentrated firepower and still come out shooting, whereas an X-wing is more likely to be crippled or dead.

Also no offence meant to the original poster for a very thorough account of the X-wings struggles, but your post(s) remind of a bad "director's cut" ala a bad Christopher Nolan movie, or the Hobbit movies by Peter Jackson. Directors should be not be allowed to edit their own movies

If the idea is to make the X-Wing a better jouster how about this:

Title- T-65C-A2, X-Wing only

Treat all K-turns as white manuvers.

I am so glad no forum poster designs for FFG.