One of my favorite ships to run if I play Rebs is a rookie x-wing with R2-D2. It fulfills a role that I think is important in this game. In my lists I like to make the job of target priority difficult for my opponent. I will run that rookie with some other dangerous target and make my opponent choose between a harder to kill rookie with an upgrade that is very annoying to leave on the table or a dangerous target that they would rather focus on. Putting a wrench into someone's plans can sometimes force your opponent into making a bad choice. I find that when I play a list that has one obvious priority target that that target usually ends up as space dust way too fast. I haven't tried the rookie e-wing in this way yet but I think it could be even more annoying.

The reason why people are whining about the X-Wing or E-Wing is because they like the ship but it wasn't prevalent at Worlds. I guarantee you, had 1/3rd of the ships been E-Wings and X-Wings, people would be complaining about some other ship or card.

When new things are revealed that refresh the viability of a ship, everyone calls to have their favorite thing "fixed". What they really want, and fail to understand, is more content and more choices. More diversity means you won't see any one thing dominate.

If you look back two years, it was the same nonsense with named pilots. Generics and TIE swarms were dominating and people wanted to use the high PS pilots but found them not worth the price. It wasn't until ACD was released with the Phantom did people start steering towards the highest PS possible.

Give it a few months and everyone will be raving about "fixing" something else.

yeah I think its the generics that folks are on about.. I used "Fat Corran" last night and he is awesome!! Corran+R2-D2+ sensor jammer and stealth device and Lone wolf!!!!! divide up your moves every-other turn by going "Offensive double tap" and then "Defensive shield recovering" the following turn... if he is not getting focus fired on he is nearly indestructible!!! Just don't fly into the back of a ship with anti-pursuit lasers like i did AND I rolled a "Hit".. which means i lost my stealth device but he still kicked but however i did have to get out of action and spend more time recovering shields!!

Unless there is something I missed in the FAQ, you shoudn't have lost your stealth device. Taking damage and getting hit with an attack are two very different things. APL does not initiate an attack, it just happens to use an attack die to determine whether damage is done.

The reason why people are whining about the X-Wing or E-Wing is because they like the ship but it wasn't prevalent at Worlds. I guarantee you, had 1/3rd of the ships been E-Wings and X-Wings, people would be complaining about some other ship or card.

When new things are revealed that refresh the viability of a ship, everyone calls to have their favorite thing "fixed". What they really want, and fail to understand, is more content and more choices. More diversity means you won't see any one thing dominate.

If you look back two years, it was the same nonsense with named pilots. Generics and TIE swarms were dominating and people wanted to use the high PS pilots but found them not worth the price. It wasn't until ACD was released with the Phantom did people start steering towards the highest PS possible.

Give it a few months and everyone will be raving about "fixing" something else.

Thank you!

yeah I think its the generics that folks are on about.. I used "Fat Corran" last night and he is awesome!! Corran+R2-D2+ sensor jammer and stealth device and Lone wolf!!!!! divide up your moves every-other turn by going "Offensive double tap" and then "Defensive shield recovering" the following turn... if he is not getting focus fired on he is nearly indestructible!!! Just don't fly into the back of a ship with anti-pursuit lasers like i did AND I rolled a "Hit".. which means i lost my stealth device but he still kicked but however i did have to get out of action and spend more time recovering shields!!

Unless there is something I missed in the FAQ, you shoudn't have lost your stealth device. Taking damage and getting hit with an attack are two very different things. APL does not initiate an attack, it just happens to use an attack die to determine whether damage is done.

I concur. APL is not an attack. It cannot possibly hit. Stealth device remains intact.

The reason why people are whining about the X-Wing or E-Wing is because they like the ship but it wasn't prevalent at Worlds. I guarantee you, had 1/3rd of the ships been E-Wings and X-Wings, people would be complaining about some other ship or card.

When new things are revealed that refresh the viability of a ship, everyone calls to have their favorite thing "fixed". What they really want, and fail to understand, is more content and more choices. More diversity means you won't see any one thing dominate.

If you look back two years, it was the same nonsense with named pilots. Generics and TIE swarms were dominating and people wanted to use the high PS pilots but found them not worth the price. It wasn't until ACD was released with the Phantom did people start steering towards the highest PS possible.

Give it a few months and everyone will be raving about "fixing" something else.

Excuse me? You don't speak for me or anyone else, thank you very much.

My desire for an X-Wing bump has everything to do with my love of the X-Wing in the movies, playing the X-Wing video game, and dreaming about flying the four cannoned ship of awesome. I believe the Tie Fighter and X-Wing should be two of the strongest ships in the game because they ARE Star Wars and they both appeared in all three of the OT. OT ships should be the best.

I absolutely believe made up garbage like the Phantom, YT-2400, et al. should be relegated to chaff status instead of being the centerpiece of competitive lists.

You are welcome to disagree with my position, but don't go telling me what my position is.

I remember a time when everyone was complaining that the game was all about pushing as many generics as you could fit into a list around. Much adoo was made about high pilot skill not being worth it and people never using the iconic named pilots. So the devs instituted changed that benefited those high PS pilots over their generic counterparts...now we have people whining that their generics are passed over.

And now the circle is complete.

IMHO I preferred the mostly generic games...heroes aren't going to be in every battle. But the player base got exactly what they asked for...and the grass is always greener on the other side.

The reason people want the X-Wing to be good is because it is the most iconic ship in the game and it is the game's namesake.

If all you're doing is going into your backyard to check the temperature, it might be hard to figure out why everyone is worried about global warming (it's winter and it's cold!). But the proof is there. Out of all the 2014 Nationals results that were included here by Major Juggler that included Wave 4, We saw a total of 10 generic X-Wing pilots in the top 8s, and 6 through top 16s, for a total of 16 generic X-Wing pilots that did well. By comparison 26 generic B-Wing pilots were in the top 8s, and 16 generic B-Wings in the top 16s, for a total of 42.

16 generic X-Wings compared to 42 B-Wings. I think this is not only because the B-Wing is superior to the X-Wings in their primary roles as jousters, but the B-Wing also has much better upgrade options, droids do not compare to the options given by systems, cannons and now crew. I would also say that B-Wings are more maneuverable than Xs thanks to their barrel roll and 1 hard turn, even if they are slower which doesn't really matter.

For comparison, there were 78 generic Z-95s in the top 16 of all the Nationals, which when you adjust for points cost, is about the same amount of points as the number of B-Wings that showed up. Which backs the math that Major Juggler did that shows that Z-95s and B-Wings are close to 100% efficient, while the X-Wing is operating at 90% efficiency for its point cost. Oh yeah, and there were 0 generic E-Wings, HWKs, Outer Rim Smugglers or TIE Advance in any of the top 16s, and only 4 generic TIE Bombers and Defenders. At least we can say that the X-Wing isn't unplayable compared to those ships.

Finally, I don't really understand why the OP even made this thread if all he does is play casual games against 1 person. The complaints are by competitive players that want to see the generic X-Wing (and the E-Wing I guess, meh) do better in a competitive environment. Just playing against a friend for fun or bragging rights is a great way to play, but it's a completely different game than the ones that people are staking their own money and an entire day on and playing against multiple players. A game's balance is truly tested when many different players are playing against each other and doing everything they can to gain an edge. That is the environment where the cream rises to the top and the chaff falls to the bottom.

OP, if you just play for fun, then don't listen to what the competitive players are saying because it has nothing to do with the game you're playing, just have fun. If you really want to see for yourself what people are complaining about, then you'll have to leave the safety of your 2-fish pond and jump into the ocean with the sharks. But like I said, I think just playing the game for fun with a friend is a perfectly fine way to play.

I guess my issue is it doesn't feel like a powerful, versitile and reliable interceptor/light bomber that countless sources have made them out to be. They just feel so average and unremarkable that I just continue to ignore them the more I play this game.. and that really makes me sad. When TIE Fighters and Shuttles seem like the more viable options for deployment it makes me really reconsider the ship as an option at all.

I think the main reason is that the people who design the game agree that it 'needs a nudge'.

I remember a time when everyone was complaining that the game was all about pushing as many generics as you could fit into a list around. Much adoo was made about high pilot skill not being worth it and people never using the iconic named pilots. So the devs instituted changed that benefited those high PS pilots over their generic counterparts...now we have people whining that their generics are passed over.

And now the circle is complete.

IMHO I preferred the mostly generic games...heroes aren't going to be in every battle. But the player base got exactly what they asked for...and the grass is always greener on the other side.

The problem isn't that you can't run generics. Generics are still everywhere in this game. The problem is that there is almost nothing a generic X-Wing can do that a Bandit Squadron Pilot can't do for 43% cheaper. Three Z95s will always provide more benefit than two Rookie X-Wings while freeing up six squad points for the named guys.

And not every ship will be viable in the "competitve" environment. Rookie Xwings were, once, all over the place and second only to the Acadmey TIE as the "King of the Game." They have now been unseated (which was something the player base had wanted back then) and now people are clamoring to have them brought back. It just strikes me as funny...the community wants something and once they have it they decide they would prefer things to go back to the way they were.

This game is a human creation...its not going to be perfect. I accept that...my favorite star wars ship of all time (the Defender) was written off by this board before it even hit the shelves...and people here continue to write it off. I don't feel the need to come here and wine about how the Defender "doesnt work." I go out and find ways to make it work. That it isnt "competitively viable" (whatever that ultimately means) really makes no difference to me. I will run it anyway.

If you are going to constantly play in the "competitive" environment then you need to accept the fact that some cards will simply be better (sometimes far better) than others. When you look at it the Bwing and the Xwing have the inverse problem...the Bwing generics are good and the uniques mostly suck. WIth the Xwing the named pilots are awesome and the generics suck...Xwings and Ewings are still quite usable...more so than my beloved Defender or the TIE Bomber based on the data.

Dont feed me this crap about how "the game is named after this ship so it NEEDS to be awesome!! ALL its pilots need to be viable." No they dont, mainly because it cant happen...and getting the game to the point where every pilot is equal is an impossible demand. I am not gong to go around and demand "fixes" from the devs...they can see how the game is developing. If the Xwing gets a bump great whatever...but seeing all these whiny threads right after the TIE Advanced fix smacks of jealously on the part of the filthy Rebellion (Ill admit this is a bit assumptive but its how I feel and how I see it.) They already have what is considered to be the game...but other ships would need "fixing" before the X or E wings if you ask me...

I think that with more arc dodgers and turret ships, people got lazy. You can't just fly an X-wing without support. Even in Wave 1, you needed to fly your X-wings to watch each other's backs. X-wings are great with 3 attack dice, a good movement dial, and good hull/shield. I would say that X-wings are more than "slightly better Z-95's". Also, they get to take Astromechs.

So, I think X-wings take effort to make them effective and there are other options that you don't have to be as smart to be effective with.

I remember a time when everyone was complaining that the game was all about pushing as many generics as you could fit into a list around. Much adoo was made about high pilot skill not being worth it and people never using the iconic named pilots. So the devs instituted changed that benefited those high PS pilots over their generic counterparts...now we have people whining that their generics are passed over.

And now the circle is complete.

IMHO I preferred the mostly generic games...heroes aren't going to be in every battle. But the player base got exactly what they asked for...and the grass is always greener on the other side.

The problem isn't that you can't run generics. Generics are still everywhere in this game. The problem is that there is almost nothing a generic X-Wing can do that a Bandit Squadron Pilot can't do for 43% cheaper. Three Z95s will always provide more benefit than two Rookie X-Wings while freeing up six squad points for the named guys.

And not every ship will be viable in the "competitve" environment. Rookie Xwings were, once, all over the place and second only to the Acadmey TIE as the "King of the Game." They have now been unseated (which was something the player base had wanted back then) and now people are clamoring to have them brought back. It just strikes me as funny...the community wants something and once they have it they decide they would prefer things to go back to the way they were.

This game is a human creation...its not going to be perfect. I accept that...my favorite star wars ship of all time (the Defender) was written off by this board before it even hit the shelves...and people here continue to write it off. I don't feel the need to come here and wine about how the Defender "doesnt work." I go out and find ways to make it work. That it isnt "competitively viable" (whatever that ultimately means) really makes no difference to me. I will run it anyway.

If you are going to constantly play in the "competitive" environment then you need to accept the fact that some cards will simply be better (sometimes far better) than others. When you look at it the Bwing and the Xwing have the inverse problem...the Bwing generics are good and the uniques mostly suck. WIth the Xwing the named pilots are awesome and the generics suck...Xwings and Ewings are still quite usable...more so than my beloved Defender or the TIE Bomber based on the data.

Dont feed me this crap about how "the game is named after this ship so it NEEDS to be awesome!! ALL its pilots need to be viable." No they dont, mainly because it cant happen...and getting the game to the point where every pilot is equal is an impossible demand. I am not gong to go around and demand "fixes" from the devs...they can see how the game is developing. If the Xwing gets a bump great whatever...but seeing all these whiny threads right after the TIE Advanced fix smacks of jealously on the part of the filthy Rebellion (Ill admit this is a bit assumptive but its how I feel and how I see it.) They already have what is considered to be the game...but other ships would need "fixing" before the X or E wings if you ask me...

Your entire post has been refuted by the current X-Wing designers at FFG in several interviews they've done at tournaments. They have explicitly said that they know that ships like the generic X-Wing and the TIE Advanced are not good enough for competitive play, and that it's not okay with them because those ships are iconic to the films and should be good and should see more play than they do now.

Your opinion that all games have to have bad pieces and that the generic X-Wing has to be that bad piece is contradicted by statements that have been made by the people that are currently designing this game.

I remember a time when everyone was complaining that the game was all about pushing as many generics as you could fit into a list around. Much adoo was made about high pilot skill not being worth it and people never using the iconic named pilots. So the devs instituted changed that benefited those high PS pilots over their generic counterparts...now we have people whining that their generics are passed over.

And now the circle is complete.

IMHO I preferred the mostly generic games...heroes aren't going to be in every battle. But the player base got exactly what they asked for...and the grass is always greener on the other side.

The problem isn't that you can't run generics. Generics are still everywhere in this game. The problem is that there is almost nothing a generic X-Wing can do that a Bandit Squadron Pilot can't do for 43% cheaper. Three Z95s will always provide more benefit than two Rookie X-Wings while freeing up six squad points for the named guys.

And not every ship will be viable in the "competitve" environment. Rookie Xwings were, once, all over the place and second only to the Acadmey TIE as the "King of the Game." They have now been unseated (which was something the player base had wanted back then) and now people are clamoring to have them brought back. It just strikes me as funny...the community wants something and once they have it they decide they would prefer things to go back to the way they were.

This game is a human creation...its not going to be perfect. I accept that...my favorite star wars ship of all time (the Defender) was written off by this board before it even hit the shelves...and people here continue to write it off. I don't feel the need to come here and wine about how the Defender "doesnt work." I go out and find ways to make it work. That it isnt "competitively viable" (whatever that ultimately means) really makes no difference to me. I will run it anyway.

If you are going to constantly play in the "competitive" environment then you need to accept the fact that some cards will simply be better (sometimes far better) than others. When you look at it the Bwing and the Xwing have the inverse problem...the Bwing generics are good and the uniques mostly suck. WIth the Xwing the named pilots are awesome and the generics suck...Xwings and Ewings are still quite usable...more so than my beloved Defender or the TIE Bomber based on the data.

Dont feed me this crap about how "the game is named after this ship so it NEEDS to be awesome!! ALL its pilots need to be viable." No they dont, mainly because it cant happen...and getting the game to the point where every pilot is equal is an impossible demand. I am not gong to go around and demand "fixes" from the devs...they can see how the game is developing. If the Xwing gets a bump great whatever...but seeing all these whiny threads right after the TIE Advanced fix smacks of jealously on the part of the filthy Rebellion (Ill admit this is a bit assumptive but its how I feel and how I see it.) They already have what is considered to be the game...but other ships would need "fixing" before the X or E wings if you ask me...

Your entire post has been refuted by the current X-Wing designers at FFG in several interviews they've done at tournaments. They have explicitly said that they know that ships like the generic X-Wing and the TIE Advanced are not good enough for competitive play, and that it's not okay with them because those ships are iconic to the films and should be good and should see more play than they do now.

Your opinion that all games have to have bad pieces and that the generic X-Wing has to be that bad piece is contradicted by statements that have been made by the people that are currently designing this game.

What was refuted? That they are getting a "fix" supposedly? I know that...maybe you should reread what I wrote (I bolded that part for you)? I believe I mentioned that? I never said that the generic Xwing had to be that bad piece or that all games have to have bad pieces, but if you look at games you will come to realize it is inevitable. Do me a favor, please do not speak for me or put words in my mouth. I am quite capable of communicating my ideas myself.

I diatrabe is against the view that EVERY ship needs to be equal or at least "competitive and viable" and how I find it entertaining that people here are clamoring for the very thing they were deriding only a year ago...I will stand by my statement that not every ship will be viable nor does every ship need to be it simply cant be done.

Once this rumored fix comes out someone will find something else to complain about (some will even complain about the fix I am sure). They will find something that they feel needs to be "fixed." But if you think the reason the TIE adv was fixed was because it is iconic then I have a bridge to sell you. I would say the same of the Xwing...there would be far more pressing matters at play then simply "Its iconic and therefore ALL pilots for it should be viable." Can it be the case? I can take them at their word and defer that point to you...but I am pretty sure there is more to it than that...I havent seen the interview...can someone confirm his claim that this was the reason for the TIE adv fix and the "rumored" Xwing fix that is supposedly coming?

I commend the devs for trying to keep things relevant and preventing power creep from overtaking any ship completely...but they are still people and this is still (and always will be) an imperfect enterprise. Maybe i need to be more clear here is the crux of my argument:

Not all pilots need to be "viable" as so many here put it...you want it to be as many as possible yes but see my next point. Regardless of how hard they try there will ALWAYS be pilots who are not "viable." You dont need to play at the tourney level to have fun or see play. So again...reread my post...what have I said specifically that was refuted? If its simply their reason for employing a fix...well I guess I can take them at their word...but that still doesnt refute my entire post.

Excuse me? You don't speak for me or anyone else, thank you very much.

My desire for an X-Wing bump has everything to do with my love of the X-Wing in the movies, playing the X-Wing video game, and dreaming about flying the four cannoned ship of awesome. I believe the Tie Fighter and X-Wing should be two of the strongest ships in the game because they ARE Star Wars and they both appeared in all three of the OT. OT ships should be the best.

I absolutely believe made up garbage like the Phantom, YT-2400, et al. should be relegated to chaff status instead of being the centerpiece of competitive lists.

You are welcome to disagree with my position, but don't go telling me what my position is.

Looks like I did speak for you just fine. See, you love the ship because of some non-nonsensical attachment to sticking with OT ships. You actually proved my point by replying. You love the ship and want to see it win more competitions. Thank you for further proving my point.

Your entire post has been refuted by the current X-Wing designers at FFG in several interviews they've done at tournaments. They have explicitly said that they know that ships like the generic X-Wing and the TIE Advanced are not good enough for competitive play, and that it's not okay with them because those ships are iconic to the films and should be good and should see more play than they do now.

Let me clue you in to what FFG does for a living: they sell toys. Would you continue buying into a game if the designers said "no, we intend on never releasing any more content specifically for the X-Wing. It's perfect the way it is, stop whining"??

Of coarse not. They want to sell you on buying more stuff and the best way to do that is to release new content for old content.

How is this point lost by everyone? Why do you keep citing this as some sort of revelation that FFG wants to sell you more stuff?

First Elite Pilots got no attention, then it changed. Now generics are not good enough. Is this a problem? Generics are supposed to be worse. That's why they are generics! As soon as they start to shine, they have higher Pilot Skil and a name. As it should be. A rookie is just that, a rookie. And they are present in a nice durable, backbone ship which doesn't get them killed instantly unless they meet something really really nasty. But then again, they were rookies, what did you expect? A rookie outfighting Baron Soontir Fel?

For those who play(ed) Blood Bowl, you don't complain a human lineman is worse than Grif Oberwald either, do you?

The current balance is good. A higher PS defeat a lower one at regular basis, but gets in difficulty if swarmed.

Don't try and mess with the cost to much, changing 1 or 2 points can easily mess up the delicasy that is called balance

:-)

Well it's easy to see why people are gloom and doom. The wave 5 meta is currently dominated by incredibly powerful and easy to use ships that makes the X-wing seem completely unreliable.

You have Whisper, who combines the phantom's arc-dodging action-independent pre-manuever de-cloak (which can later be course-corrected with a barrel-roll), a free action cloak post attack (regardless of bumps or flying through asteroids), with PS 9 (effectively) with four agility (effectively) and a free, action-independent focus.

You have turreted ships of 3 flavors, 2/3 of which come with guaranteed defenses and bloated profiles. All of them benefit immensely from post manuever boost (large base) while not having to pay any attention to their facing because they're just guaranteed a shot unless you bring high mobility against an outrider HLC.

Unlike the X and other ships, turrets and phantoms carry far fewer inherent risks (less affected by bumps/non-debris obstructions) and far more guaranteed outcomes (to an iditoic degree in the turret's case, imo). Given how forgiving these ships are, I can understand how the X-wing fell out of favor.

There's also the whole generic Rookie Pilot being cost in-efficient compared to the B-wing and Z-95. Again, more guarantees (more hull/shields per points, very reliable system upgrades for Bs and numbers for Zs)

I don't think generic X-wings can compete, but I have faith in the characters. Problem is, most of the good stuff is locked away in the rebel transport box. R3-A3 on a V.I + engine luke/wes is basically a death sentence to our poor phantom friends, which is fair considering they're just as expensive as ACD whisper. There's also Tarn Mison, who is pretty hilarious against builds dependent on a few powerful attacks because that's where the R7 can cause the most headache.

Could you please post the video and time stamp where the designers say the X-Wing needs fixing?

Excuse me? You don't speak for me or anyone else, thank you very much.

My desire for an X-Wing bump has everything to do with my love of the X-Wing in the movies, playing the X-Wing video game, and dreaming about flying the four cannoned ship of awesome. I believe the Tie Fighter and X-Wing should be two of the strongest ships in the game because they ARE Star Wars and they both appeared in all three of the OT. OT ships should be the best.

I absolutely believe made up garbage like the Phantom, YT-2400, et al. should be relegated to chaff status instead of being the centerpiece of competitive lists.

You are welcome to disagree with my position, but don't go telling me what my position is.

Looks like I did speak for you just fine. See, you love the ship because of some non-nonsensical attachment to sticking with OT ships. You actually proved my point by replying. You love the ship and want to see it win more competitions. Thank you for further proving my point.

Not even remotely. I could not possibly care less about the e-Wing, my disagreement is canon, nothing to do with equal representation of all ships.

Also, I hope you, your family and everyone else on this board has a very Merry Christmas.

Up until very recently with the Legends announcement things like the Phantom and the YT-2400 (which shows up in the special edition of the original trilogy btw) were every bit as canon as the X-wing.

The term "made-up garbage" is also a bit odd when we're talking about science fiction movies. It's not like we're digging up wrecked X-Wings off the coast of Florida.

Wait....YOU didn't dig up x-wings? They aren't real!? NOOOOOOOOooooooooooo

Nope, they're actually made-up garbage from the 70's!

Could you please post the video and time stamp where the designers say the X-Wing needs fixing?

http://teamcovenant.com/scumandvillainy/2014/11/26/scum-villainy-interview-with-x-wings-designers/

37:45, they start talking about the x-wing's viability and what the designers are going to do about it.

If you're not able to listen to the interview, I've written up a transcript of the part of the interview relevant to this conversation. Like I said, if you mock anyone for thinking the generic x-wings are underpowered right now, you're basically mocking the people that design this game.