So ... VI now is overpowered?

What will it be tomorrow?

Determination?

Deadeye?

Daredevil?

There is nothing wrong with discussions, but keep in mind we are not game designers nor game testers. (well maybe couple have game tested)

But ffg has done a spectacular job on this game.

No matter what, there is ALWAYS going to be someone who does not agree with what the designers do

Does that make it wrong?

Not really.

I think for the most part the community is happy with the way things work out, and ffg has been doing a lot to keep the game balance, add new aspects while at the same time keeping the old material up to date.

Expose for example. Been around for awhile, hardly if never used until now.

Tie advanced fixes awing fixes and etc.

Back on topic veteran instincts is just fine the way it is.

Like I said, we are not game designers and truthfully if some of the ideas posted were to be put into this game would probably see balance issues.

Opinions are like aholes

Everyone has one and they all stink

Fat Han can be beaten, of course, but to reliably do so, in a local meta would mean you would have to build against him and to do that is to die to Phantoms, so people end up with trying to be able to do both and that is much harder.

That is only one way, not the only way.

Do you propose soliciting e-signatures on a petition for the FFG designers, or is this for home games, or merely hum-hawing?

Somehow I keep destroying Whisper with Alpha or Obsidian Pilots in the last few games.

I just keep failing against Han + EU + Gunner + 3PO + ....

Cloacking is still an action and we saw the release of a lot off stress inducers in wave 4/5 and the transport. Coincidence? I think not.

I agree

With wave 5 and the previous releases stress is everywhere and surely slows down phantoms

Cloacking is still an action and we saw the release of a lot off stress inducers in wave 4/5 and the transport. Coincidence? I think not.

Cloaking is indeed an action

De cloaking is not

Acd's cloak is a free action post attack (I.e occurring after the phantom could have taken a green manuever To shed stress)

So really, you need 2 stress or to stress it before it fires (triggering ACD) hence the PS wars we have going on.

The extra stress tech IMO doesn't change that game up so much as absolute deathknells such as MUX

Again,though, I believe the +green dice from cloaking is more to blame than anything because its a level of insurance most fast ships do not enjoy combined with an offensive profile no other ship can enjoy (without hlc).

The phantoms whole reason for being is its maneuverability and acds recloak is a great feature that optimizes that capability, its just that the extra dice create a rather incomparable profile for a small ship.

Vi is simply there because trigger ACD first is so essential. Stress isn't a counter, it only stresses (har) the importance of high PS.

Especially not things like mara jade and the new flechette cannon (that doesn't fire before the phantom) because they're incapable of stacking stress. R3-A2 is, and thankfully can stress through rebel captive, but again it works much better with high PS (& engine) because it's very hard to draw multiple arcs to the same phantom. Flechette torps do stack stress, but you need TLs to fire without deadeye and you still have the problem of arcs (Nera excluded)

Stressed Phantoms with Acd are predictable.

Double-stressed Phantoms are dead Phantoms. Good that it isn't easy to double-stress them.

Gunner + Tactican would be a possibility...

Rebels even have the possibility to instantly double-stress a Phantom:

"Hobbie" Klivian (29) X-Wing (25), R3-A2 (2), Flechette Torpedoes (2) ... or just use a Rookie Pilot ...

Requiring a target-lock from low PS ships is problem enough without the target being a very maneuverable phantom. While I don't think they're the arc-dodging gods they seem to be on the forums, they have no issue getting out of at least 1 from pilots the move before them unless you start actively blocking de-cloaks.

Now double-stressed phantoms are dead, but phantoms stressed before ACD are also stuck up **** creek (they're HLC bearing Z-95s with no de-cloak the following turn) and it is much more easily accomplished without dedicating your list to stress based control. And so, the ps war continues.

Incidentally, Wes/Luke with VI R3-A2 and EU are pretty **** savy for neutering phantoms, which is fair because they cost the same as ACD Whisper. Wes is more efficient for ensuring it dies (slap off evades) and against 2 ship lists (where knocking a TL off a phantom or decimator will infuriate it to no end and drastically cut down on the list's overall firepower) whereas Luke is more efficient against mini-swarms because of his constant pseudo-focus.

I made through 2 pages or so of this thread the other day and had to give up so I apologize if I'm covering a point someone ended up making.

The current meta issues have little to do with VI. It isn't broken and doesn't need to be changed.

First, Fat Han only became a thing because the Z-95 Headhunter was released allowing a loaded Han to paired with a viable mini-swarm. Well, that and the release of goldenrod. So take Han out of the VI conversation because that's a whole different deal.

The Phantom on the other hand is enabled to be a thing because of ACD and VI. That being said it isn't VI that's overpowered or an issue anywhere else, only with that combo on the Phantom. Seeing as the designers have already admitted their mistake on the Phantom design (specifically the 4 attack) why is there any question about an issue w/ Veteran Instincts?

The designers will fix the problem at some point (the Phantom), not VI.

Did the designers admit fault in the phantom design?

Link?

Did the designers admit fault in the phantom design?

Link?

Don't have time to look but it's discussed on the interview with Frank and Alex from Worlds IIRC

Still love the way some people think certain ships that are stressed are predictable.. come play me and my stressed ships.. I guarantee I'll surprise you.. any ships with the phantoms movement ability is far from predictable, heck my stressed interceptor is unpredictable, mainly because I am willing to fly 2 turns stressed so you won't know where I'll be. And I'll still be on your tail... lol

If you know your opponent and play them often, you may get to know their style, but up against someone you have never played you have no clue where that ship will be... it's really that simple..

Did the designers admit fault in the phantom design?

Link?

Don't have time to look but it's discussed on the interview with Frank and Alex from Worlds IIRC

It most certainly wasn't discussed that way in the Team Covenant interview.

Stressed ships are predictable only if the player is committed to "shed stress at all costs"-mindset.

Did the designers admit fault in the phantom design?

Link?

Stressed ships are predictable only if the player is committed to "shed stress at all costs"-mindset.

Phantoms live and die by cloaking, so shedding stress is pretty valuable.

Stressed ships are predictable only if the player is committed to "shed stress at all costs"-mindset.

Phantoms live and die by cloaking, so shedding stress is pretty valuable.

Not getting shot at is always better than rolling 6 green ones (cloak- range 3 - obstacle).

However it is sometimes better to disengage safely to a distance and set up your attack run again. (A feat I very often fail to do and opt for rolling the green dices of death instead!)

Haha... predictable is the path to death... I won't be predictable, but I will surprise you..

Those who think the way you mention.. yes they will perish...

Stressed ships are predictable only if the player is committed to "shed stress at all costs"-mindset.

No evade and no boost makes Han a dull boy

Did the designers admit fault in the phantom design?

Link?

Don't have time to look but it's discussed on the interview with Frank and Alex from Worlds IIRC

It most certainly wasn't discussed that way in the Team Covenant interview.

Well perhaps it's somewhere else or I read more into something than was actually said. I honestly can't recall the specifics.

Regardless it's still an issue of that specification ships interaction w/ VI and ACD that creates the issue. Nowhere else in the game do you have an issue w/ VI so the point I was trying to make remains: there is nothing wrong with VI. Look for a fix to this issue elsewhere or wait until another inevitable meta shift that knocks the Phantom down a notch.

or wait until another inevitable meta shift that knocks the Phantom down a notch.

I think this is the most likely event. It probably won't be a straight up counter to phantoms as those exist already but a more appealing altenative.

Dagonet, while i think it is perfectly fine to try to see whose is at fault. Removing VI just because of the phantom, is a bandaid, people would, for example, use decoy.

The problem with the phantom, is the phantom. Let's look at whisper. It is a highly mobile ship, with 4 attack dice, 4 defense dice, the possibility to turtle (evade + focus) withouth stressing itself like PtL ships would, access to Fire control systems, and access to crew. The only thing it is lacking right now is a goddamn title.

All in one small crazily mobile ship. It was bound to happen, VI or not, the phantom would change the game. Even if Fat Hans could defeat it 9 out of 10 times, you still have to take into account the possibility of a phantom being on the oppossing side of the table.

I used to enjoy the phantom, because it is a fun ship to fly, but i had seen what it has done to the game, and the game would be much better withouth it.

Dagonet, while i think it is perfectly fine to try to see whose is at fault. Removing VI just because of the phantom, is a bandaid, people would, for example, use decoy.

The problem with the phantom, is the phantom. Let's look at whisper. It is a highly mobile ship, with 4 attack dice, 4 defense dice, the possibility to turtle (evade + focus) withouth stressing itself like PtL ships would, access to Fire control systems, and access to crew. The only thing it is lacking right now is a goddamn title.

All in one small crazily mobile ship. It was bound to happen, VI or not, the phantom would change the game. Even if Fat Hans could defeat it 9 out of 10 times, you still have to take into account the possibility of a phantom being on the oppossing side of the table.

I used to enjoy the phantom, because it is a fun ship to fly, but i had seen what it has done to the game, and the game would be much better withouth it.

to be fair, it isnt the phantom's fault, but rather just ACD alone. Having tried out stygium and other upgrades, the non ACD variants are perfectly fine, being glass cannons with a difficult to learn method of flying them. You have to know when to cloak, when to decloak because you will be spending entire turns either exposed or unable to attack. Your positioning needs a lot of planning because you can only decloak every other turn at most.

Now with ACD, cloak / decloak occurs pretty much every single turn, you get to jump positions multiple times within 2 turns, and it is just in short the thing that totally breaks the game for the phantom

Still love the way some people think certain ships that are stressed are predictable.. come play me and my stressed ships.. I guarantee I'll surprise you.. any ships with the phantoms movement ability is far from predictable, heck my stressed interceptor is unpredictable, mainly because I am willing to fly 2 turns stressed so you won't know where I'll be. And I'll still be on your tail... lol

If you know your opponent and play them often, you may get to know their style, but up against someone you have never played you have no clue where that ship will be... it's really that simple..

Stressed Interceptor != stressed Phantom with ACD