VI is fine. If you must do anything, raise the cost to 2 SP. That would still make it usable, but not as easy for Phantom flyers to eek out that initiative bid.

Changing one 1pt EPT is hardly whacking the game with a sledgehammer. But when the Phantom came up, it's exactly what it did to the meta essentially. So yes i think it's worth it to change VI.

The phantom was necessary. Did it work completely as intended? No. But can you think of a better fix to the rock-bottom PS dominance and iron rule of the Howl Swarm with the available tools as of Wave 3 and without the benefit of hindsight?

You're suggesting an arbitrary tournament ruling prohibiting VI on any pilot above PS9. Are you telling me on that list of 52 pilots there's not one you'd miss VI on? Besides, this is by its very nature an arbitrary ruling for tournaments, and if you're doing that, why not target VI on the phantom specifically? Why close off options for twenty times as many pilots? It's senseless.

If Falcons are such a huge problem in areas then bring back the swarm.

A good player vs a falcon will tear it apart.

Swarms are still strong in the right hands.

Seems to me a lot of stir is over falcon and turrets.

If people don't feel confident enough to fly something other than a falcon at a tournament after a few loses against swarms they will see things differently

...I would think anyway.

Other options are include outmaneuver

A defender with a mini swarm and outmaneuver on the defender renders 3p0 useless

Mini swarm block and more evade action either

If Falcons are such a huge problem in areas then bring back the swarm.

But then what happens when you run into the Phantom list? I don't play phantoms much myself, but my understanding is swarms don't do well against them.

Why is it that every single ship and upgrade needs fixing?

Anything that's underpowered and thus sees little use in the view of the designers should, if possible, be buffed by other cards to make it viable again and increase the available options, lest we end up with a very small and boring pool of "competitive" ships. Anyone who thinks we should have "tiered" effectiveness of ships, who thinks ship patching with new releases isn't necessary and feels we should have junk cards can by all means continue suggesting FFG shouldn't patch ships. And , unless they feel like being a hypocrite, ignore Royal Guard Pilot title, A-wing Test Pilot, Chaardan Refit, Autothrusters, BTL-A4, Bomb Loadout and the TIE advanced upgrades.

As for Veteran Instincts, the card works exactly as it should. Pilot skill is a risky investment and its low cost reflects that. For those suggesting it should have cost two points, how often do you use Grey Squadron Pilot, Red Squadron Pilot, Gamma Squadron Pilot, Dagger Squadron Pilot, Blackmoon Squadron Pilot, Storm Squadron Pilot and Onyx Squadron Pilot?

But then what happens when you run into the Phantom list? I don't play phantoms much myself, but my understanding is swarms don't do well against them.

Formations don't do well against phantoms as they give it an arcless zone to hide in. Phantoms, like Falcons, force you to adapt your tactics. A swarm has to break formation, spread out and block the phantom. Many people just fly as normal then claim the ship is broken and the list unbeatable.

For those who say phantoms are a nightmare to block, I say this. Firstly, when the phantom plans its maneuver there's usually one decloak it wants. Guess it and block it and that phantom's not going anywhere. Two, blocking a Whisper phantom is actually easier as unlike other ships if it decloaks it's only got three maneuver options. Block the one it wants and you force it into a suboptimal maneuver. Block two and you choose its decloak direction. Block all three and you stop it decloaking entirely. Stop it decloaking and that's a round of free shots for you against a ship that can't shoot back. Echo is much more slippery but is also rarer and lower pilot skill.

That or fly Soontir Fel.

I've seen howlrunner and an academy kill a cloaked echo before

He rolled 2 hits with each and echo rolled 8 blanks

Granted it does not happen often, but in this case I (as it was me who had echo) decloaked in a position I knew was going to get shot at, and statically thought the dice were on my side, even had a Focus

My jaw near hit the floor with disgust

Just like mentioned above. Swarms are great blockers and can cover a lot of ground.

It's people don't know how to adapt.

May take a game or two, to figure out the best way to adapt

Great players in anything learns to adapt strategy.

If a team in any sport uses the same play over and over again because they win with it, another team will change their plays

.

Formations don't do well against phantoms as they give it an arcless zone to hide in. Phantoms, like Falcons, force you to adapt your tactics. A swarm has to break formation, spread out and block the phantom. Many people just fly as normal then claim the ship is broken and the list unbeatable.

For those who say phantoms are a nightmare to block, I say this. Firstly, when the phantom plans its maneuver there's usually one decloak it wants. Guess it and block it and that phantom's not going anywhere. Two, blocking a Whisper phantom is actually easier as unlike other ships if it decloaks it's only got three maneuver options. Block the one it wants and you force it into a suboptimal maneuver. Block two and you choose its decloak direction. Block all three and you stop it decloaking entirely. Stop it decloaking and that's a round of free shots for you against a ship that can't shoot back. Echo is much more slippery but is also rarer and lower pilot skill.

That or fly Soontir Fel.

That's been my experience with Whisper as well. Also same with Echo, she's a real tough cookie to track down (though it is possible with VI Jake or Boba)

I would not recommend Soontir, though, cause everyone plays whisper here and therefore plays her with rebel captive to counter the other whispers. Sure, the baron gets a free focus, but captive will essentially turn off PTL and the boosts/rolls that come along with it. Soontir with mini-swarm, though, can get it done if you dictate the de-cloak.

Problem is now that decimator + phantom is the hot new ****, so Chiraneau w/Vi and EU has been added to the mix...

I think this a neat idea, if not completely necessary. I would offer an alternative. By not allowing VI on higher-than-5 PS, you also hurt pilots like Wes, who love to be paired up with Wedge for devastating attack combos. Additionally, it always bugged me a little bit that PS9 was the highest you could start with, but someone could "shoot first" before Han by simply taking a 1-point upgrade. So how about this?

"Increase your pilot skill by 2, up to a maximum of 9."

No more Han goes to 11, but "Whisper" and "Echo" can still use it. And anyone who still manages to max out at 9 gets to enjoy an Initiative bid against "Whisper" and even Han.

For Han and C3PO, limiting their ability to once per combat phase would be reasonable I think.

C3PO is already limited to a single use per round.

I really like vi to equalize ps across my list, has nothing to do with phantoms or dash.

If we discussing ps alone (not a good arguement when taken in a vaccum)it is not VI that has a problem but rather the mileage certain pilots get with it. Off the bat the pilots that benefit a lot from VI pre-phantom was Wes and..hmnn not much there. Vi would make it to some lists that either want their squads to have equal ps for movement, focus fire window equality among ships and not much else. With the advent of phantoms however Vi on Echo and Whisper are auto takes. Han Solo with Vi, Jan Ors, Wes, Corran, certain Luke builds Boba etc etc now felt the need to go higher in ps to directly counter the cloaking ability of phantoms.

Now back to basic pilot skills. Pre Vi there are only 4(afaik) pilots with innate Ps 9, Wedge, Soontir, Han and Vader. Vadrr was rarely if ever used. The rest belong to builds that were counterabke by a variety of lists. Now when Phantoms came in the sudden shift to ps 9 and greater or don't bother came in. Now a lot of builds were almost instantly no longer viable thus making players feel that they had to resort to turrets and tanky ships like the falcon to even stand a chance.

Ps is not the culprit but rather the accomplice. Now Ffg has released 2 360 degree firing large ships and already we are seeing diversity (somewhat) to the phantom vs falcon meta. The bid for higher ps ships has now evolved to equal ps ships to combat I dare say the effects of rebel captive of decimators. Anyone qho has faced a decently flown decimator against atleast a rebel captive and ysanne kniws how frustarting it is to have your ace ship shooting first and getting stressed locked simply because most of his wingmen are generics with lower ps.

The thing with Ps is it is now a situational thing rather than a do or die situation shown during the previous meta. If I had to point out a stat that will wreck the game if not taken care of it is the attack dice.(Won't get into this now)

The question now becomes, at PS 6 & 7, are Whisper and Echo even viable options anymore? I know I'd have a much harder time justifying 36 pts on a ship that has like 10+ ships that render ACD much less useful. You'd also have to worry about things like Chewy + VI. Etc.

I mean, it DOES suck that a lot of pilots, like most Interceptor pilots, are getting ignored almost solely because their PS cannot compete.

However, if you look back prior to Wave 4, almost NO PS 9 ships ever won a big tournament. The field was dominated by low PS, making PS 9 overkill. Things will likely change a bit in the coming year. Captain Oicunn, for example, is PS 4, but has ALL the right tools for beating high PS aces (ramming, Rebel Captive). Lots of Scum pilots have great abilities, even at low PS. Rebel Control will become very strong.

There is plenty of more fun to be had in this game.

The answer is that the Phantom will lose its place at the top of the meta if you change VI. But Phantoms are denying so much other ships to be viable that i have started to dislike them.

Also they will still have a place in tournaments after a while.

As i said:

1) PS7/8/9 will be played and beat phantoms consistently.

2) Players will shift back to low PS generics or cheaper pilots to beat elite 2 and 3-ship builds that resulted from 1)

3) Phantoms will come back and punish low skill pilots. There is their place in the meta!

Also i don't think Dash and the decimator are the absolute Top of the meta. Han is still more durable as is Chewie and with EU able to beat Dash pretty often. Decimators can go diwn incredibly fast from which i have seen. They deal a lot of damage too, but they are not as great as some say. I have seen them killed in 2 turns without influcting any damage sometimes.

So it's pretty much still Han and Phantoms even if some other stuff now comes very close!

I strongly disagree that the removal of either ACD or VI (or both) would remove Whisper / Echo from the meta, especially when the phantom itself has amazing stats for what you are paying, plus one of the greatest customizability on the imperial side. If we really wanted to argue further, Whisper + VI w/o ACD is nowhere near as powerful as Whisper + ACD w/o VI, since the main reason why he is so absurdly game-breakingly irritating is due to him being able to cloak and decloak every single turn.

as proof, TuskenRaider managed to win a fairly large tournament using 4x sigma phantoms w/o any upgrades (each is 25pts exactly)

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243620/tournament-report-27-09-14-sum-all-fears

I am the last person to say that the phantom is a bad ship. I think it's too cheap pointwise. I have discussed this in other threads. I say 25 points for a ship with such a dial, Firepower still 4 hp which is out of oneshotting range of most enemies, and the absurd mobility and defense that the stealth mechanic brings with it even without ACD, it's dirt cheap. All the ships named pilots are dirt cheap for what they do. And then they have System upgrades, Crew and Modifications that are tailored for them and offer insane synergy.

Compare this to any other ship and look what you get for the same points. It's just ridiculous. Rookie 21 points vs 25 points and all the Sigma offers? Knave squadron? The Sigma even has 3 PS for no actual reason and they must also come for free.

If however we look at what was or is the top of the meta, we dont see Sigma squadrons. They are great and my friend plays them regularly for a Whisper/Sigmax2 list with insane firepower. But at the top we find Whisper and Echo with VI and ACD. They are what gets on peoples nerves and they are what sees an abusive lot of play.

Those 2 would disappear initially from the meta, but they would probably find their place back later Probably not as the terror they are right now, but as said to punish low PS ships.

So why not change VI, Phantoms will still see alot of playtime, including competitive playtime, because the ship is still very well priced for what it has to offer. Unlike many other ships and pilots that are right now completely suppressed by Echo and Whisper.

As a former only rebel player, high ps skill was one of the foundations of rebel gameplay right out of the starter set. That alone is proof of how the initial designers conceptualized the effect of having higher pilot skill.

I agree with the idea that powerful cards are not neccessarily the problem but rather the possibility that card or ship or pilot can break the game when used in conjunction with another ship or pilot or card.

Changing VI for the sake of one ship that will be soon replaced by other deadlier things makes for bad game changes.

I feel like VI for phantoms is exactly as it should be. I guess I don't know, but I would assume that if there was no VI, the named ones would be 9 and 8 natively and then have an open VI slot which is way more scary to me.....

but I would assume that if there was no VI, the named ones would be 9 and 8 natively

Perhaps but they would of also cost more.

Remember the days when we were all complaining that swarm builds were the only viable option? Remember the first time we complained about the falcon? the second? the third? remember when we thought interceptors were useless and then just a few months later we complained they were overpowered? This game is a beautiful evolving game and I'm surprised FFG hasn't given up since they can't please any of you with their perfect models, elegant gameplay and consistent mechanics. Just be happy this game wasn't made by games workshop or privateer press. Then we would have real issues. Jar Jar would probably be the best pilot in the game and the droid swarm would be unstoppable.

Changing one 1pt EPT is hardly whacking the game with a sledgehammer. But when the Phantom came up, it's exactly what it did to the meta essentially. So yes i think it's worth it to change VI.

The phantom was necessary. Did it work completely as intended? No. But can you think of a better fix to the rock-bottom PS dominance and iron rule of the Howl Swarm with the available tools as of Wave 3 and without the benefit of hindsight?

You're suggesting an arbitrary tournament ruling prohibiting VI on any pilot above PS9. Are you telling me on that list of 52 pilots there's not one you'd miss VI on? Besides, this is by its very nature an arbitrary ruling for tournaments, and if you're doing that, why not target VI on the phantom specifically? Why close off options for twenty times as many pilots? It's senseless.

Ok one time at least that i agree with you.

The phantom was necessary to give high PS a meaning again. Completely right.

They didn't have to make it as powerful as they did to fulfill this purpose, but it was necessary. I don't want to return to naked "fit as many dice and hp as possible in" squads either.

So it has to stay in the game for whenever a low PS only meta would come back. Some smart people would grab their phantoms and club some Rookies, Blues and Academies. Well Done! Meta changed back!

And it's true i would miss VI on some other Pilots.

So if we can't follow Dagonets proposition to target any pilot above PS5, well then let's just target Phantoms. They are the problem, then we should target them alone!

All of these complaints about VI, where are the complaints about Roark? There's a ship that gives another PS 12.

VI was used at Worlds in 50% of the top 8 lists, nearly 50% of the top 16 and 30% of the top 32. Out of 11 lists with VI, 4 were used on Whisper, 4 were used on Han.

To me, that means that there is a problem, the race for a high PS has stifled list-design. The problem, to me, is not 3PO on Han, nor is it ACD on a Phantom, nor is the problem in the turrets, it is the two points of PS.

This is where you are wrong. VI has always been good, just like Determination. It was taken because people reacted to ACD, not because it is broken.

Looks like everyone is trying to find a way to "fix" things that aren't broken....

All of these complaints about VI, where are the complaints about Roark? There's a ship that gives another PS 12.

With restrictions and only for combat, not for movement.

To be clear, i said VI was fine as is. I was simply suggesting a limited adjustment IF one was absolutely needed.

The question now becomes, at PS 6 & 7, are Whisper and Echo even viable options anymore? I know I'd have a much harder time justifying 36 pts on a ship that has like 10+ ships that render ACD much less useful. You'd also have to worry about things like Chewy + VI. Etc.

I mean, it DOES suck that a lot of pilots, like most Interceptor pilots, are getting ignored almost solely because their PS cannot compete.

However, if you look back prior to Wave 4, almost NO PS 9 ships ever won a big tournament. The field was dominated by low PS, making PS 9 overkill. Things will likely change a bit in the coming year. Captain Oicunn, for example, is PS 4, but has ALL the right tools for beating high PS aces (ramming, Rebel Captive). Lots of Scum pilots have great abilities, even at low PS. Rebel Control will become very strong.

There is plenty of more fun to be had in this game.

The answer is that the Phantom will lose its place at the top of the meta if you change VI. But Phantoms are denying so much other ships to be viable that i have started to dislike them.

Also they will still have a place in tournaments after a while.

As i said:

1) PS7/8/9 will be played and beat phantoms consistently.

2) Players will shift back to low PS generics or cheaper pilots to beat elite 2 and 3-ship builds that resulted from 1)

3) Phantoms will come back and punish low skill pilots. There is their place in the meta!

Also i don't think Dash and the decimator are the absolute Top of the meta. Han is still more durable as is Chewie and with EU able to beat Dash pretty often. Decimators can go diwn incredibly fast from which i have seen. They deal a lot of damage too, but they are not as great as some say. I have seen them killed in 2 turns without influcting any damage sometimes.

So it's pretty much still Han and Phantoms even if some other stuff now comes very close!

I strongly disagree that the removal of either ACD or VI (or both) would remove Whisper / Echo from the meta, especially when the phantom itself has amazing stats for what you are paying, plus one of the greatest customizability on the imperial side. If we really wanted to argue further, Whisper + VI w/o ACD is nowhere near as powerful as Whisper + ACD w/o VI, since the main reason why he is so absurdly game-breakingly irritating is due to him being able to cloak and decloak every single turn.

as proof, TuskenRaider managed to win a fairly large tournament using 4x sigma phantoms w/o any upgrades (each is 25pts exactly) http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243620/tournament-report-27-09-14-sum-all-fears

I am the last person to say that the phantom is a bad ship. I think it's too cheap pointwise. I have discussed this in other threads. I say 25 points for a ship with such a dial, Firepower still 4 hp which is out of oneshotting range of most enemies, and the absurd mobility and defense that the stealth mechanic brings with it even without ACD, it's dirt cheap. All the ships named pilots are dirt cheap for what they do. And then they have System upgrades, Crew and Modifications that are tailored for them and offer insane synergy.

Compare this to any other ship and look what you get for the same points. It's just ridiculous. Rookie 21 points vs 25 points and all the Sigma offers? Knave squadron? The Sigma even has 3 PS for no actual reason and they must also come for free.

If however we look at what was or is the top of the meta, we dont see Sigma squadrons. They are great and my friend plays them regularly for a Whisper/Sigmax2 list with insane firepower. But at the top we find Whisper and Echo with VI and ACD. They are what gets on peoples nerves and they are what sees an abusive lot of play.

Those 2 would disappear initially from the meta, but they would probably find their place back later Probably not as the terror they are right now, but as said to punish low PS ships.

So why not change VI, Phantoms will still see alot of playtime, including competitive playtime, because the ship is still very well priced for what it has to offer. Unlike many other ships and pilots that are right now completely suppressed by Echo and Whisper.

For a ship that costs almost half your squad points, with 4 hp and can be one shooted.

A fully loaded whisper isn't too far off in points vs a chewy with upgrades.

I don't recall chewy getting one shoted at all.

Chewy can shoot 360, Whisper can't.

And compare the generics with ewing generic?

The ewing has a good dial, it has 3 extra hp, pretty well cannot be one shotted, it has r2 slots, sensor upgrades, and probably sees about as much play as a generic phantom

It's also a tricky ship to fly, not everyone can do well with it.

I've been helping some fly the ship at our lgs

Phantoms after Wave 5 have taken a small blow with the new turret meta.

So their cloak and decloak shenanigans is not near as useful seeing as no matter where they are on the board they will get shot at.

Yes let's take veteran instincts away and make it more difficult to fly.

Hell while we're at it why doesn't ffg restrict phantoms from competitive play

I'm sorry but take veteran instincts away, they are not going to see near as much play time as you suggested.

Echo ps6 with predator, or outmaneuver is going to do so well against Dash with a hlc turret.

Or Whisper for that matter should you lose initiative.

Dash 4 dice vs a 2 dice ship worth half your squad points

That seems unbalanced

Imo with dash alone has increased the importance of veteran instincts.

For Han and C3PO, limiting their ability to once per combat phase would be reasonable I think.

Er....

To be clear, i said VI was fine as is. I was simply suggesting a limited adjustment IF one was absolutely needed.

Tried that before, hypothetical thread about all turrets only working at Range 2 max. You'll get nothing but overreactions here to hypotheticals, no one is interested in having an actual conversation, just telling you why you're wrong.