Like others have said Vet Instincts has an opportunity cost that offsets the low point cost. Yes it's one of the most efficient EPT cards, strictly speaking, but you have taken from yourself every other option that helps with dice rolling.

VI isn't going anywhere but it's going to see much more situational use. Something like Paul Heaver's use of R2-D2 Crew at Worlds; a clutch use to tweak a powerful build based on expected opponents. I think Scum especially will be seeing that happen, as they're hurting for PS more than either other faction, but I honestly expect Rebels and Imperials to lay off it a bit. I believe it's a bit hasty to call for a debuff/nerf/errata on VI when the new faction hasn't been released and digested.

Remember that FFG is intentionally pushing the pilot skill race. The last few waves were meant to breakup the old meta of four to eight ships flying formation in a block. With that in mind I would say VI is working as intended.

They're pushing it to see more pilots in the game. Push it too high and you achieve the same problem you had before with a new - limited - cast of characters. I'm sure they wanted it higher so we'd see more pilots, not a new set on the other side of the spectrum.

I think Scum especially will be seeing that happen, as they're hurting for PS more than either other faction, but I honestly expect Rebels and Imperials to lay off it a bit. I believe it's a bit hasty to call for a debuff/nerf/errata on VI when the new faction hasn't been released and digested.

Agreed and a good reminder. Though I am somewhat okay with these discussions since FFG always has something new forthcoming and, due to their early announcements and long shipping, its on the horizon for 6 months. In the mean time we have what we have so such discussions make sense.

My main issue with VI is that it breaks the rule of upgrade costing more than innate ability.

What rule?

it is clearly undercosted

No it isn't. Two PS that may or may not have an effect for one point and the very valuable EPT slot. Seems a fair trade to me.

I actually think the OP's idea is a great. I wish PS was less influential -- and it was pre-Phantom -- than it is now. I'd rather a game that saw all PS ranges, and thus all pilots, used somewhat evenly. All generics removes unique abilities from the game, and most EPTs, entirely. Likewise, all PS8+ elites leaves the mid-level uniques in purgatory where they don't get used. This likewise feeds a simplified meta since people are forced to use a few powerful lists that have answers to PS incorporated. Frankly, I wouldn't mind dropping VI. Sure Phantoms now run the risk of having wicked hard times against higher PS lists but, um, isn't that what other lists face against Phantoms already given their CRAZY manueverability? Don't forget they have a unique movement ability that puts it into a class all its own. VI as a single card makes whole lists possible and as such is incredibly powerful at both the individual and meta levels, which I think is Dagonet's underlying observation.

That being said, I'm curious, Dagonet would you be willing to incoporate another 'check' to VI besides the PS5 limitation? Maybe you could make it like Adrenaline Rush where it is triggered and discarded, making it less domineering but still threatening. Render it situational instead of passively omnipresent. Or up-ing the point cost so that taking it reduces the rest of your list more? I'm personally more in favor of the situational tweak, rendering it more like a 'Lucky Shot.'

Actually, now that I think about it, in Allston's X-wing: Starfighters of Adumar Wedge talks with an Adumari pilot about when rookies are allowed to challenge vets to duels. The Adumari says it usually isn't allowed but an exception can be made if the rookie or less experienced pilot has a new manuever to try out. He gains experience against a senior adversary and the vet gets to learn a new trick. Along those lines, what about:

Insight: At the beginning of the movement phase treat your PS as 9. A the end of this round discard this card. You may use and keep this card once if during the combat phase you do not make an attack. (1 point)

OR

Insight: At the beginning of the movement phase treat your PS as 9. After two rounds of play immediately discard this card. (1 point)

Either lets you save it for a kill shot or make a push at an opportune time but also gives you some flexibility to help you survive. It isn't permanent so it carries risk.

And this is what I mean about how important list building is

There are plenty of ships and ways to get the jump on phantoms without changing the way veteran instincts works

Luke, Han,Wes,wedge,Coran to name a few with veteran instinct can get the jump on phantoms. This is where how you decide to use that elite slot, and can be very important.

But there are other ways, Han, and wedge or Lando with veteran instincts can still beat out phantoms so long as they keep their squad total to 98-99 pts

Plus with the new wave 5 ships I don't think we will see phantom like before.

They will still be around, but with turret everywhere veteran instincts is not going to help them as much as before.

They are a lot easier to shoot

For one point it's a great upgrade. But I know I've had games where veteran instincts was useless against my opponents low ps ships

I think Scum especially will be seeing that happen, as they're hurting for PS more than either other faction, but I honestly expect Rebels and Imperials to lay off it a bit. I believe it's a bit hasty to call for a debuff/nerf/errata on VI when the new faction hasn't been released and digested.

Agreed and a good reminder. Though I am somewhat okay with these discussions since FFG always has something new forthcoming and, due to their early announcements and long shipping, its on the horizon for 6 months. In the mean time we have what we have so such discussions make sense.

Oh absolutely, and I love talking shop about the game. The thing that takes the longest to digest are, personally, full squad interactions. I'm more than willing to talk about a particular upgrade or ship/card combo, but it'll be a bit before we start to see the subtleties of three Scum Zs vs three Scum Scyks, when and where to apply Decoy, Vet Instincts, or Swarm Tactics, or where people are running natural Pilot Skill levels. That sort of thing! Regionals and the rest of the big tournaments are going to be a ton of fun next year, because I think we're going to have more (viable!) options than ever.

That's part of why I think VI is fine as-is. There's a lot of competition for that upgrade slot, and PS is still going to be important but specifically PS9 will not be as important. I expect 5-8 to be the real hotspot, and it's going to be interesting to watch people build a Mando Merc with intention to both block higher PS aces, and dodge around PS1-3 fodder. I believe that's part of why the Mando and the second generic Scyk are both at PS5; the named Scum pilots can't really compete with the Imps and Rebels the same way for PS7+, but the whole faction has an advantage against generic pilots.

Hog wash. VI is an expensive card. Not in points, but in filling an EPT slot with a non-ability. But this is part of the game. Will you win with pilot skill, abilities, brute force, or some other means? I'm happy to see PS play a factor in the game again.

Except for the fact that very few pilots at ps 5 or fewer even have the pilot upgrade.......

Green Squadrons, Saber Squadrons, Mandalorian Mercs... have I missed any?

Black Squad, Royal Guards, Gemmar Sojan if he takes the title, Nera Dantels, Etahn Abat, Blackmoon with R2-D6, Tarn, Biggs, Hobbie and the Red Squad (need R2-D6), Chewbacca, Leebo, Gray Squad with R2-D6, Commander Alozen, Captain Oicunn, Palob Godalhi, Guri, Kaa'to Leachos.

VI would become a very Rebel biased card if it was limited to PS5 or less. The Rebels have the most pilots by far that could use VI and quite a few pilots at PS5 which would be enough to tie Whisper and beat Echo for PS.

Except for the fact that very few pilots at ps 5 or fewer even have the pilot upgrade.......

Green Squadrons, Saber Squadrons, Mandalorian Mercs... have I missed any?

Black Squadron Pilot

Commander Alozen

Saber Squadron Pilot

Mandalorian Mercenary

Chewbacca

Green Squadron Pilot

Gemmer Sojan

Nera Dantels

Etahn A'baht

Kaa'to Leeachos

Captain Oicunn

Leebo

Twelve EPT (including A-wings and below) at PS5 and below.

As for the EPT ships over PS5 you'd be locking out...

Jek Porkins

Luke Skywalker

Wes Janson

Wedge Antilles

Kavil

Mauler Mithel

Howlrunner

Maarek Steele

Unspoiled PS6 TIE Advanced

Unspoiled PS7 TIE Advanced

Juno Eclipse

Darth Vader

Royal Guard Pilot

Tetran Cowall

Turr Phennir

Carnor Jax

Soontir Fel

Lando Calrissian

Han Solo

Arvel Crynyd

Jake Farell

Tycho Celchu

Kath Scarlet (Scum)

Kath Scarlet (Imperial)

Boba Fett (Scum)

Boba Fett (Imperial)

Ibtisam

Keyan Farlander

Ten Numb

Captain Jonus

Major Rhymer

Kyle Katarn

Dace Bonearm

Jan Ors

Echo

Whisper

Colonel Vessery

Rexler Brath

Corran Horn

Lieutenant Blount

N'dru Suhlak

Airen Cracken

Commander Kenkirk

Rear Admiral Chiraneau

Dash Rendar

Guri

Prince Xizor

Serissu

IG-88A

IG-88B

IG-88C

IG-88D

Fifty-two.

This change would prevent slightly over 81% of EPT ships from using VI. For what? Preventing Echo and Whisper from using it? If you're going to make a tournament restriction, restrict Echo and Whisper specifically from using it (I personally think it's unnecessary). Don't whack the game with a sledgehammer.

The question now becomes, at PS 6 & 7, are Whisper and Echo even viable options anymore? I know I'd have a much harder time justifying 36 pts on a ship that has like 10+ ships that render ACD much less useful. You'd also have to worry about things like Chewy + VI. Etc.

I mean, it DOES suck that a lot of pilots, like most Interceptor pilots, are getting ignored almost solely because their PS cannot compete.

However, if you look back prior to Wave 4, almost NO PS 9 ships ever won a big tournament. The field was dominated by low PS, making PS 9 overkill. Things will likely change a bit in the coming year. Captain Oicunn, for example, is PS 4, but has ALL the right tools for beating high PS aces (ramming, Rebel Captive). Lots of Scum pilots have great abilities, even at low PS. Rebel Control will become very strong.

There is plenty of more fun to be had in this game.

Also they will still have a place in tournaments after a while.

As i said:

1) PS7/8/9 will be played and beat phantoms consistently.

2) Players will shift back to low PS generics or cheaper pilots to beat elite 2 and 3-ship builds that resulted from 1)

3) Phantoms will come back and punish low skill pilots. There is their place in the meta!

Also i don't think Dash and the Decimator are the absolute Top of the meta. Han is still more durable as is Chewie and with EU able to beat Dash pretty often. Decimators can go down incredibly fast from which i have seen. They deal a lot of damage too, but they are not as great as some say. I have seen them killed in 2 turns without influcting any damage sometimes.

So it's pretty much still Han and Phantoms even if some other stuff now comes very close!

If you're flying Rebel, use Roark. Dead phantom.

Except for the fact that very few pilots at ps 5 or fewer even have the pilot upgrade.......

Green Squadrons, Saber Squadrons, Mandalorian Mercs... have I missed any?

Black Squadron Pilot

Commander Alozen

Saber Squadron Pilot

Mandalorian Mercenary

Chewbacca

Green Squadron Pilot

Gemmer Sojan

Nera Dantels

Etahn A'baht

Kaa'to Leeachos

Captain Oicunn

Leebo

Twelve EPT (including A-wings and below) at PS5 and below.

As for the EPT ships over PS5 you'd be locking out...Jek Porkins

Luke Skywalker

Wes Janson

Wedge Antilles

Kavil

Mauler Mithel

Howlrunner

Maarek Steele

Unspoiled PS6 TIE Advanced

Unspoiled PS7 TIE Advanced

Juno Eclipse

Darth Vader

Royal Guard Pilot

Tetran Cowall

Turr Phennir

Carnor Jax

Soontir Fel

Lando Calrissian

Han Solo

Arvel Crynyd

Jake Farell

Tycho Celchu

Kath Scarlet (Scum)

Kath Scarlet (Imperial)

Boba Fett (Scum)

Boba Fett (Imperial)

Ibtisam

Keyan Farlander

Ten Numb

Captain Jonus

Major Rhymer

Kyle Katarn

Dace Bonearm

Jan Ors

Echo

Whisper

Colonel Vessery

Rexler Brath

Corran Horn

Lieutenant Blount

N'dru Suhlak

Airen Cracken

Commander Kenkirk

Rear Admiral Chiraneau

Dash Rendar

Guri

Prince Xizor

Serissu

IG-88A

IG-88B

IG-88C

IG-88D

Fifty-two.

This change would prevent slightly over 81% of EPT ships from using VI. For what? Preventing Echo and Whisper from using it? If you're going to make a tournament restriction, restrict Echo and Whisper specifically from using it (I personally think it's unnecessary). Don't whack the game with a sledgehammer.

The question now becomes, at PS 6 & 7, are Whisper and Echo even viable options anymore? I know I'd have a much harder time justifying 36 pts on a ship that has like 10+ ships that render ACD much less useful. You'd also have to worry about things like Chewy + VI. Etc.

I mean, it DOES suck that a lot of pilots, like most Interceptor pilots, are getting ignored almost solely because their PS cannot compete.

However, if you look back prior to Wave 4, almost NO PS 9 ships ever won a big tournament. The field was dominated by low PS, making PS 9 overkill. Things will likely change a bit in the coming year. Captain Oicunn, for example, is PS 4, but has ALL the right tools for beating high PS aces (ramming, Rebel Captive). Lots of Scum pilots have great abilities, even at low PS. Rebel Control will become very strong.

There is plenty of more fun to be had in this game.

The answer is that the Phantom will lose its place at the top of the meta if you change VI. But Phantoms are denying so much other ships to be viable that i have started to dislike them.

Also they will still have a place in tournaments after a while.

As i said:

1) PS7/8/9 will be played and beat phantoms consistently.

2) Players will shift back to low PS generics or cheaper pilots to beat elite 2 and 3-ship builds that resulted from 1)

3) Phantoms will come back and punish low skill pilots. There is their place in the meta!

Also i don't think Dash and the decimator are the absolute Top of the meta. Han is still more durable as is Chewie and with EU able to beat Dash pretty often. Decimators can go diwn incredibly fast from which i have seen. They deal a lot of damage too, but they are not as great as some say. I have seen them killed in 2 turns without influcting any damage sometimes.

So it's pretty much still Han and Phantoms even if some other stuff now comes very close!

I strongly disagree that the removal of either ACD or VI (or both) would remove Whisper / Echo from the meta, especially when the phantom itself has amazing stats for what you are paying, plus one of the greatest customizability on the imperial side. If we really wanted to argue further, Whisper + VI w/o ACD is nowhere near as powerful as Whisper + ACD w/o VI, since the main reason why he is so absurdly game-breakingly irritating is due to him being able to cloak and decloak every single turn.

as proof, TuskenRaider managed to win a fairly large tournament using 4x sigma phantoms w/o any upgrades (each is 25pts exactly)

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243620/tournament-report-27-09-14-sum-all-fears

Remember that FFG is intentionally pushing the pilot skill race. The last few waves were meant to breakup the old meta of four to eight ships flying formation in a block. With that in mind I would say VI is working as intended.

They're pushing it to see more pilots in the game. Push it too high and you achieve the same problem you had before with a new - limited - cast of characters. I'm sure they wanted it higher so we'd see more pilots, not a new set on the other side of the spectrum.

But before we only saw Howlrunner and Biggs regularly. Now we see so many more and flying has become a lot more varied. I still say VI is working as intended. Especially as without it only Han would be at the top of the meta and Empire would still have swarms as their only competitive list.

Also Whisper and Echo were clearly designed with VI in mind. If it didn't exist FFG would have made them pilot skill nine and eight and people would still have issue with them.

WAAA!!! WAAA!!! Swarms of low PS ships are dominating the game!!! High PS ships are not worthy and our turreted ships, namely the falcon, cannot do nothing against them!!! Please FFG do something !!!!

- FFG diligently fields Phantoms and upgrades like 'Predator'...

WAAA!!! WAAA!!! High PS and turreted ships dominate the meta!!! Our low PS ships are almost forgotten!!! Please FFG do something!!!

- FFG: WTF??!!!

Why is it that every single ship and upgrade needs fixing?

Welcome to the internet

Where it's impossible to please all

The concern on this and several other discussion strings seems to be that to be consistently competitive many take Han with C3PO or Whisper with VI. Underlying this I think many of us would just like to see a way to get more ships more competitive for the fun of the game.

For Han and C3PO, limiting their ability to once per combat phase would be reasonable I think.

For Whisper and VI, I think there are more counters than for the above combo, but for the sake of discussion limiting V to "Increase your pilot skill by up to 2, but in no case may your modified pilot skill be greater than 8." Would be my suggestion

While I'd welcome a vi restriction to buff seldom used mid PS pilots, I dontbthink that's the phantom's real issue.

IMO the biggest problem isn't their maneuverability (their sellingvpoint) but the fact that a specialist vessel can just sledge Hammer through opposing ships

Assuming acd (safe assumption) the phantom sits at four red and four green, which are just unparralled stats.

Now I know they need it to even have a chance against the bs that is turrets (else they'd go the way of the interceptor) but it does lead to some skewed durability and offense

Since the cloak ago advantage was supposed to be balance by turning off attacks, I'd think I'd be fine just knocking off the extra green dice when using ACD. Sure, its not "advanced" in quality, but it is in cloak speed .

Still have to do something about turrets to make ever see the light of day, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.. That's the right IP, right ?

Why is it that every single ship and upgrade needs fixing?

Clearly its because we're all very talented games designers who could do a much better job of it than FFG, that and we're all masochists who love playing a game thats clearly totally broken...

(i may be joking there).

I think the problem is that someone is always going to think that the desginers view of the ships role, its abilities and its relative value is wrong in some respect and not what they would have chosen.

Usually because they have either had one or two bad experiences at the hands of a certain build and not worked out a decent counter yet but occasionally because they have put a lot of effort and work into looking at the mathematics and the relative values and *honestly* believe that using a forumula that the ship is too cheap, too expensive etc.

The problem is ship stats are situational so real 'formulas' dont hold as much water as they should as an ability thats lethal against one build could be pointless against another but you have to assign a value based on 'average' use/viability.

The concern on this and several other discussion strings seems to be that to be consistently competitive many take Han with C3PO or Whisper with VI. Underlying this I think many of us would just like to see a way to get more ships more competitive for the fun of the game.

I think that is the crux of most peoples 'grumbles' . They'd like to see a diversity of ships in play and not feel that a ship they love because of the mythos and its looks in the films is like a 'suicide option' if they took it to a game where the victory conditions are 'last man standing'

Uhh. Hell no. VI makes the game interesting too. Still boosting up all the 6 7 8 9s to higher callings and opens up more possibility for other ships.

Yes I agree it's totally overused and it's totally the phantoms fault.

Actually looking at what been announced so far. I think that with the Auto-Thrusters and X1/ATC things will be fairly well balanced.

Get a couple Imperial Huge, some S&V just for flavor (nothing Epic) and everything looks like they'll make for great match ups.

Yes not everything will be seen in tournaments but that's okay too. Call out the special teams for mission control.

It's not that VI is an issue, no more than C-3PO is an issue. The issue is the combo of cards that can produce an effect that is anywhere from balanced yet not real fun, to completely broken.

VI on Luke is not a big deal, and in a vacuum isn't even that good of an upgrade. In wave 3 VI was seldom if ever taken as an upgrade.

ACD again in a vacuum isn't that big of a deal. Sigma with ACD isn't something most people would fear greatly.

VI + ACD + PS7 or higher, that's when you start to have an issue, because you now have a PS9+ ship that now effectively has 4 attack 4 defense 100% of the time, for 5 points.

Likewise C-3PO on say a HWK-290 or even a B-Wing isn't going to be nearly as big of a deal as it is on a YT.