How important is it to include Veteran's Instincts on Dash? I fear that without it, Dash would easily fall prey to Whisper. With it and losing initiative, Dash could move after Whisper and could use Leebo or EU to get Whisper out of Dash's donut hole.

Also, Dash's dial's green maneuvers lack variety so it may be difficult to clear stress from PtL.

Thoughts?

Barring bad dice or poor manuevers, Whisper will eat Dash alive 9 times out of ten. Dash is also very action reliant to boost and barrel over asteroids. In a tournament setting where you face a variety of lists, PTL will win you more games than VI when it comes to Dash

PtL is going to be better. The PS to beat has now become 7; that's all you need outmaneuver dash.

Ptl is better basically because it's better against anything ps6 or less and anything ps7+ without boost or decloak.

Ptl Dash also beats VI Dash, and Dash is popular.

V.I. is mandatory.

PtL is also mandatory.

It's a conundrum.

hmm. I'd love VI and the full dial, but... Kyle crew gives focus for green moves...

Maybe pair with Airen for mid combat boosting. And Biggs? idk.

Ptl is better generally. Lone Wolf is also better than VI in most match-ups.

Lone wolf + recon is rock solid.

PtL is too tricky with rebel captives, and ships that can get into the donut imho. The ship has a great dial, stressing yourself has always felt like wasting it imo.

I think ptl Dash is a risk when ptl Dash is common. Once he gets rare though there will be less Rebel captives and tacticians around.

Taste, i don't find it to be useful only against Dash, but plenty of wave 5 lists.

Phantoms

Corran ptl

Dash ptl

EI/PtL decimators

All of them suffer a net loss on their upgrades, and their movement options against rebel captive. For me, it is like VI on a phantom, it just makes your list much better against a big array of lists.

This toss up is basically what keeps Dash honest. I have tried both. With PTL he falls prey to Phantoms. With VI he falls prey to PTL Dash and the like. PTL is more universally useful in my experience however, meaning you need to build the rest of the list to handle any Phantoms. As such I am trying some two ship builds next, pairing both Corran and Chewie with Dash in different lists.

I myself am over the PTL Dash build myself, as I have see some of the counters to it, Rebel Captive, Tactician, Flechette torpedoes, what have you.

Stack stress on PTL Dash is a solid way to beat him. It kills his action economy and if you can also get within range 1 of him he can't shoot as well.

That being said I do not know that VI is the answer. I like Nein Nunb on Dash as opposed to Kyle (and if you are not going to be stressing yourself, Kyle is kind of useless), to help clear the stress you will be getting from the anti-Dash meta.

I am still trying to work out what the not 58 Dash is going to look like, to be honest.

PTL, Engine Upgrade and Kyle. If you match Whisper for pilot skill, Whisper will either cloak on your if she has initiative or jump for the donut if she doesn't. I'd let Dash be Dash and use someone like Roark or R3-A2 to deal with the TIE phantom.

Stack stress on PTL Dash is a solid way to beat him. It kills his action economy and if you can also get within range 1 of him he can't shoot as well.

Neither are specific to PTL Dash. A stressstacked ship has dead action economy period, and the donut hole is the weakness of the Outrider HLC rather than PTL. In fact, Kyle makes the stressstacked Dash able to continue focusing.

Try out the recon + lone wolf really. You gain pretty good defense, and the offensive is almost untouched, except for really bad rolls. But it is amazing how well it does against other turrets because of the defensive buff.

Tie, is not exclusive, but some ships really do require that action economy more than others.

I've been flying Dash w/ Push the Limit and Kyle for some time now. I started off with Vetran Instincts and found when I needed to barrel roll or boost to get the range I wanted the unmodified dice on the attack were less then impressive. So for the choice between the two I personally recommend PTL over VI.

I do find it odd that the solution to a PTL Dash is to have him shoot at a ship with Rebel Captive. This effectively shuts down PTL but not Dash. OK so he doesn't get 3 actions per turn. The reason is he wants that stress and will gladly not use PTL and get that stress from you and still have a Target Lock and Focus to shoot you with.

I have faced Phantoms many times with a PTL Dash and find it to be little more than an annoyance. I have yet to loose a Dash to a Phantom even in a 1v1 situation. There must be something missing in my own experiences that others seem to claim as the exact opposite that I have witnessed. The ships that do give me trouble with Dash are, Swarms and large ship bases that have boost and a higher PS than Dash.

Lone wolf + recon is rock solid.

PtL is too tricky with rebel captives, and ships that can get into the donut imho. The ship has a great dial, stressing yourself has always felt like wasting it imo.

That's my favourite build too. That dial's too good with too few green options to miss out on by stressing him out. VI may work but I think Dash will always be the no1 priority target so I like that lone wolf both keeps him alive a little longer and help with the damage output. I like Land in place of the recon specialist too, but I think the reliable double focus is better than the chance of focus+evade. The reroll on defence makes the focus on defence more likely to make a difference.

cheerio,

Ben

Han (C3PO, Falcon title, Tactician, VI)

Eaden Vrill (Outrider, Lando, HLC)

Not sure how it'll stand against phantoms, but I've had pretty good luck with it otherwise.

-Cal

As long as high-pilot skill is the meta, or longer.

Huh. It's awesome to see almost every version of Dash I've tried mentioned and so well analyzed. Gives me some assurance that I'm on the right track. Good commentary one and all. Personally I like "Lone Recon" quite a bit for versatility and find it to be very solid. Veteran Dash is really good in his own way but has no real optimal ways of taking advantage of the game knowledge he gets by going last, and skips out on grapple block tricks. But far and away for me hands down, "Super Dash" is the best. PS7 is great and forces some builds straight out if you meet them, against higher builds you can grapple block when possible, the Boost/Roll combo maximizes your asteroid shenanigans, and Kyle allows you to just have the double Focus on turns you want it any way, and gives you a defense against stress mechanics.

...Now all that said and told, I hate to admit it but I fear the Decimator will be the reigning champion of Wave 5

...Now all that said and told, I hate to admit it but I fear the Decimator will be the reigning champion of Wave 5

Let it have its heyday. Wave 6 melts it, and so do Cluster Missiles (particularly with Accuracy Corrector).

Veteran Dash is really good in his own way but has no real optimal ways of taking advantage of the game knowledge he gets by going last, and skips out on grapple block tricks.

A VI Dash that goes last could use boost to get him into a position where (1) he doesn't have anyone in his donut hole and/or (2) he avoids arcs of potential attackers. The problem with VI Dash using boost is that the subsequent attack is a naked shot and does not have the benefit of focus or TL.

PtL Dash is better offensively, as you could both boost and focus/TL, but with only PS 7, it is susceptible to exploitation of its donut hole.

But a PTL model Super Dash in the hands of a good pilot can still use the same Boost/Roll Combo to be out of range and never let anyone inside the doughnut hole through good play. I had the chance to prove it the other night when a buddy was running an VI Echo and Decimator. I kept the Phantom off of Dash for all but one turn out of probably fifteen turns. And by far even compared to guys I saw at nationals he's the best Phantom pilot I know. By continually putting my self out of range so that he either had to come into range, or be completely out I kept him at bay. We eventually had to call the game after six turns of no shooting. Because I was down to the point of him having to make a mistake and move in close with Phantom, while Chiraneau beats Dash in the head to head if I get in range of him, and being smart he kept using the Phantoms broke level ability to just stay away, and didn't make aggressive moves with Decimator. We literally stale mated the game. But I lost because Keyan had died. It was quite possibly the worst game I ever played of X-wing in enjoyment terms. Super Dash/Super Keyan vs Vet Echo/Chiraneau? Echo basically auto wins vs Keyan, Chiraneau grinds out Dash then Echo gives the support for the win. If both players are even equal skill, I don't see how I really could of won that. I got two Focus-Locked shots on the Phantom with Dash, which should have killed it, but dice happened so that didn't go anywhere except knock out shields as I recall. I don't want to try it again but I might have to force myself too.

...Y'know come to think of it I don't think I have any games in memory against phantoms, or with phantoms, that I actually enjoyed. Win or lose from in front or behind it. I'll have to think about that ****...I'm getting the urge to go on another I hate phantoms rant lol

@forcesensitive, just curious, what was on your friend's Chiraneau? The times my Chiraneau went head to head against super dash, he always loses out.

well you could go VI + leebo (crew) + Exp Int.... kinda pricey but you get a ptl'like boost with VI

@forcesensitive, just curious, what was on your friend's Chiraneau? The times my Chiraneau went head to head against super dash, he always loses out.

How can chiraneau lose to a PtL Dash? Assuming of course the imp player is smart enough to take engine upgrade. That alone beats dash (due to PS 8 vs 7). If you really want to seal the deal, just add Rebel Captive and Dash is completely screwed...

VI dash is still kinda screwed if Chiraneau has rebel captive, or even a PtL Chiraneau with Isard and engine upgrade (because using PtL off of Isard's free evade action to boost in combat phase trumps Dash's PS 9).