After the new TIEadv fix is announced, I cant help but draw parallels with the Awing.

In short, the TIEadv has the new X1 title + new sensor, making it more dangerous for 1 additional squad point overall. If we compared this to the Awing, we basically have Chardaan + Outmaneuver(+Awing test pilot), for a similar +1 squad point overall. What both fixes on the respective ship does is to essentially bump up its offense for 1 additional squad point, and likewise the fix for the TIEadv is a little fiercer than its cheaper Rebel counterpart since the base ship is already more expensive, so it makes sense that you get something better if it would cost you more.

So let's compare, Tycho PTL Outmaneuver vs Soontir PTL, both are 30 points. If we take the Outmaneuver -1 green effect to be the same as +1 atk dice (yes I know they are quite different), you are basically trading 1 PS for 1 extra hp. Now throw in the points paid for having shields in exchange for the difference between +1atk and Outmaneuver, both ships are pretty similar in terms of points paid for performance. On the mook-er side of things, Green Awing PTL Outmaneuver is worth 23 points, while Saber PTL is worth 24 (or if you'd wish, Royal PTL is worth 25pts), so the difference in points can basically be attributed to the PS difference. In essence, both ships are about the same performance wise, just that the Awing trades a bit of firepower for a bit more survivability.

tl;dr, if you dutifully Chardaan Outmaneuver-ed every single Awing you have (except prototype), you pretty much have balanced the Awing to be equivalent to a PTL TIEint with virtually 0 cost difference (and Gemma = Lt Lorrir / Fel's Wrath, Arvel = Kir Kanos). On top of that, the Outmaneuver fix helps the Awing win the common argument that 2 atk dice cannot chew through C3P0 + MF title). So there shouldn't be anymore complaints that the Awing fix has not achieved its purpose, we simply didn't discover the correct combination yet.

I agree with you, Duraham. I think it's useful to think about ships' roles. The TIE Advanced was supposed to be the Imperial equivalent of an X-Wing in terms of role — a well-rounded ship with decent survivability and good attack power. The TIE Advanced already had good survivability, but its offense was weak, so that's what FFG fixed. It fulfills its role better.

The A-Wing is supposed to be a flanker with high defense and lower attack. It had that balance, but it was still too expensive for what that set of attributes brought to the table, so FFG made it cost less and put out an upgrade (Outmaneuver) that took advantage of the A-Wing's strengths to fix it. (You could throw Proton Rockets in with this, too.) So now it fulfills its role better, too.

I think that FFG keeps ship roles heavily in mind when designing fixes.

Jakes was made for prot rockets. Combo discovered

The only a-wing related complaints I can think of is "fat turrets exist." Apart from the outrider, they're not good for business.

I thought the point of the advanced was to have shields and hyperdrive mainly. It still has 2 cannons so I don't know why it would be better offensively than a tie fighter, other than the fact it can carry missiles.

I thought the point of the advanced was to have shields and hyperdrive mainly. It still has 2 cannons so I don't know why it would be better offensively than a tie fighter, other than the fact it can carry missiles.

It also has a more advanced computer. Hence the fix that adds a system slot to the TIE Advanced.

Though I like the wayboth ships were fixed, it still irks me that A-wings don't have a system slot. It is so common in the fluff that they have jammers and advanced computers.

Both fixes did indeed drastically improve my esteem (and likely usage) for both. The A-Wing is terrific fun as either a blocker deluxe or high-level pest. The TIE Advanced X1 will make my lists in a much needed role in that middle range between TIE and Interceptor/Phantom, with Darth and Maarek finally showing up a legit aces. Great fixes all around.

Honestly, i greatly dislike the Chardaan part of the A-wing fix. To me, it was lazy, and really just means you have to pay a 2 pt tax on Missiles now. Saying Outmanuever gives you a damage increase comparable to a squint is off base since you actually have to "Outmanuever" your opponent to get its effect, while the Interceptor has no such compulsion. its really more like "sometimes the A-wing does about as much damage as an Interceptor, but not if your opponent outguessed you.

4 Green with PTL, Outmanuever, Chardaan, and let's say Autothrusters cost as much as 4 RGP with PTL. Do you really think the A-wings are going to have an easy time of it? i'd say thats an uphill battle for them, and they'll get crushed in a head to head.

Forget Outmaneuver. I'm slapping Daredevil on Tycho. Wheee!!!

Honestly, i greatly dislike the Chardaan part of the A-wing fix. To me, it was lazy, and really just means you have to pay a 2 pt tax on Missiles now. Saying Outmanuever gives you a damage increase comparable to a squint is off base since you actually have to "Outmanuever" your opponent to get its effect, while the Interceptor has no such compulsion. its really more like "sometimes the A-wing does about as much damage as an Interceptor, but not if your opponent outguessed you.

4 Green with PTL, Outmanuever, Chardaan, and let's say Autothrusters cost as much as 4 RGP with PTL. Do you really think the A-wings are going to have an easy time of it? i'd say thats an uphill battle for them, and they'll get crushed in a head to head.

well, given their main role as flankers, you are pretty much doing it wrong if you attempt head-on fights with them, unless you are packing stuff like Assault missiles.

Honestly, i greatly dislike the Chardaan part of the A-wing fix. To me, it was lazy, and really just means you have to pay a 2 pt tax on Missiles now. Saying Outmanuever gives you a damage increase comparable to a squint is off base since you actually have to "Outmanuever" your opponent to get its effect, while the Interceptor has no such compulsion. its really more like "sometimes the A-wing does about as much damage as an Interceptor, but not if your opponent outguessed you.

4 Green with PTL, Outmanuever, Chardaan, and let's say Autothrusters cost as much as 4 RGP with PTL. Do you really think the A-wings are going to have an easy time of it? i'd say thats an uphill battle for them, and they'll get crushed in a head to head.

well, given their main role as flankers, you are pretty much doing it wrong if you attempt head-on fights with them, unless you are packing stuff like Assault missiles.

The catch is that this system doesn't offer much incentive to a flanker. Outmaneuver was a bit of an olive branch, but even then, you have to work real hard for the edge, hope there's no turrets on the board, and then you still don't even hit as hard as a Rookie flying straight into the jaws of danger.

well, given their main role as flankers, you are pretty much doing it wrong if you attempt head-on fights with them, unless you are packing stuff like Assault missiles.

The catch is that this system doesn't offer much incentive to a flanker. Outmaneuver was a bit of an olive branch, but even then, you have to work real hard for the edge, hope there's no turrets on the board, and then you still don't even hit as hard as a Rookie flying straight into the jaws of danger.

Outmaneuver works against turreted ships (they still have a firing arc printed on them).

Honestly, i greatly dislike the Chardaan part of the A-wing fix. To me, it was lazy, and really just means you have to pay a 2 pt tax on Missiles now. Saying Outmanuever gives you a damage increase comparable to a squint is off base since you actually have to "Outmanuever" your opponent to get its effect, while the Interceptor has no such compulsion. its really more like "sometimes the A-wing does about as much damage as an Interceptor, but not if your opponent outguessed you.

4 Green with PTL, Outmanuever, Chardaan, and let's say Autothrusters cost as much as 4 RGP with PTL. Do you really think the A-wings are going to have an easy time of it? i'd say thats an uphill battle for them, and they'll get crushed in a head to head.

well, given their main role as flankers, you are pretty much doing it wrong if you attempt head-on fights with them, unless you are packing stuff like Assault missiles.

Flanker vs flanker? HE WHO FLANKS FIRST FLANKS FURTHEST. Bah. Plenty of Imperial lists will have Interceptors as their flanker once AT releases, and an Interceptor will dunk on an Awing all day long. +1 Shield < +1 Attack + Barrel roll.

well, given their main role as flankers, you are pretty much doing it wrong if you attempt head-on fights with them, unless you are packing stuff like Assault missiles.

The catch is that this system doesn't offer much incentive to a flanker. Outmaneuver was a bit of an olive branch, but even then, you have to work real hard for the edge, hope there's no turrets on the board, and then you still don't even hit as hard as a Rookie flying straight into the jaws of danger.

Outmaneuver works against turreted ships (they still have a firing arc printed on them).

Except you are still taking return fire, which trying to negate that is half the point of a flanker. I can tell you from personal, painful experience that turreted ships still don't care about Awings with Outmanuever for more than a turn or two. Otherwise Interceptors would still be perfectly fine right now, which they definitely aren't.

well, given their main role as flankers, you are pretty much doing it wrong if you attempt head-on fights with them, unless you are packing stuff like Assault missiles.

The catch is that this system doesn't offer much incentive to a flanker. Outmaneuver was a bit of an olive branch, but even then, you have to work real hard for the edge, hope there's no turrets on the board, and then you still don't even hit as hard as a Rookie flying straight into the jaws of danger.

Outmaneuver works against turreted ships (they still have a firing arc printed on them).

This. Dodge the primary arc and out-manuever triggers (canceling 3PO on falcons, if that helps)

unless you were referring to a general hope that high mobility ship would not have to have its defining advantage negated by an incredibly silly turret advantage, then yeah...nothing to be done about that.

It's worth mentioning, though, that the A-wing's not the only ship that gets bent over by that particular oversight

Except you are still taking return fire, which trying to negate that is half the point of a flanker. I can tell you from personal, painful experience that turreted ships still don't care about Awings with Outmanuever for more than a turn or two. Otherwise Interceptors would still be perfectly fine right now, which they definitely aren't.

Yeah, here we go. That's basically the A-wing's, the Interceptor's, and imo the game's greatest problem.

Right after Rebel Aces went legal i ran Tycho and Jake kitted out with some z-95 support against Echo and a Decimator. They ONLY reason i won was catching Echo with a lucky Procket early on and the other one fired by Jake rolling 3 hits and 2 crits, one being the hard turn's red and injured pilot on the decimator. Even then i lost both Z's and Jake and Tycho were missing shields. it'd have been even worse had i taken Chardaan's instead to squeeze in another Z.

Honestly I still think awings lack firepower enough that I don't care to run them. Now I still want two so I can do my double 7 dice combo.

But the tie advanced looks pretty good for cost. 21 or 22. At two points discount to 2 ties. Might be good for those who want bulkier ships that don't die in one shot. (Two shots! For me. Haha. 2 hits all green blanks. 2 hits crit 1 evade draws direct. Every time. )

If it helps, I found

Jake

*PTL

*VI

*Prot Rockets

basically dominates phantoms and outriders. The guy is incredibly hard to dodge and if the Whisper player picks initiative (they always do) you get to move last, and even cloked Whisper does not enjoy taking five dice to the face.

Sadly, nothing in the game counters the bull that is turrets until auto-thrusters come out, but I don't think I'd pay 33 points for this Jake. That's 2 points too many for a two dice ship and it could be an FCS on an accompanying B-wing, instead.