I know that it might be stating (Vading) the obvious, but having just played 2 skirmish games it "dawned" upon me like a sledgehammer.

In both games he, very naturally, strode through the map and wrecked the opponents heroes.

In the first game my opponent threw almost everything at Vader. I had made sure the Lord had an appropriate entourage consisting of a Royal Guard and 3 Stormtroopers, and while they did their part it was Vader who really shined. In 2 turns he Force Choked his own son and followed up by dealing 8 straight up damage to a twi'lek wannabe before a cowardly rebel sniper brought him down.

In the second skirmish (played as a sort of 2v2) Vader was "a late bloomer" but when he got fired up he simply tore up the enemy.

Once again the first Vader casualty was poor Luke. Luke had JUST managed to tow a crate back to the rebel lair when Vader showed up and once again did the windpipe choky thing. In the next round he did a repositioning and a Force choke, but didn't kill anything.

Our opponents had/chose to focus on the remaining Royal Guard. So it was down to Vader against a crate carrying Twi'lek and a Rebel sniper. To my recollection we played "Sit tight" which let Vader "hang back" until the enemy drew closer. Vader took another shot from the sniper and the twi'lek had to move close to Vader due to the crate pulling her down. Their puny attacks did a little damage to Vader who now sprang in to action:

• First he moved os he could reach both the twi'lek and the sniper
• Then Vader Force choked the sniper
• Then we played "To the Limit" which allows you to perform another action after you resolve a Special ability. After the extra action Vader would become stunned
• Now Vader triggered/performed "Brutality" and wiped out both of the remaining rebel scum

All in all Vader is simply a machine (which he SHOULD be)

Have a Mery X-Mas, may the dice be with you and may you always have line of sight

-Niko-

Being a "I will have to play/experience it" kind of player( compared to the "I can immediately tell/see how to play it" player) I do thoroughly enjoy these "Eureka!!" moments where something falls into place in my head ;-)

Yup. My players will be facing a semi-Vader (he will only have 4 health) in the next mission, but a quick test run in private by myself had shown me just how much damage he can put out, and how much damage he can avoid with his defense dice.

I can't wait to bring out the full power Vader later and watch my players start to sob. >

I have a concern with Vader in the Skirmish format. for his point cost, I think he's too good. 16 HP with 2 black dice for defense (and a reroll to boot) and having 2 red and a yellow dice for his attacks?! he's a melee beast. then he can Force Choke someone from across the map for 2-3 guaranteed damage (no other figure can come close to do this).

he is sooo good that most Imperial Squads will run him. this will cause Rebel squads to try and run some sort of anti-Vader build to be competitive. this will cause the Skirmish mode to stagnate very quickly. I've experienced something just like this before. back when WotC (Wizards of the Coast) had their Star Wars miniatures game, they came out with a figure of General Obi-Wan Kenobi (GOWK). this one figure practically broke the game so badly, it was the ONLY figure to be banned from tournaments mainly due to the only squads that were showing up were GOWK and anti-GOWK. then WotC came back and modified how some of his abilities to work to rebalance him.

I fear something similar happening with Vader due to his combination of damage output and survivability. even though he's 18 points (almost half your squad), he has the potential to do a lot of damage before both squads really start to engage each other. then when gets up close he will wreck things very quickly. Brutality to attack multiple targets + Force Choke, he's can kill multiple unique characters a turn. not saying Vader is unstoppable, but I have concerns that the game will devolve into Vader vs anti-Vader squads.

While Vader is indeed great, I've found that at only speed 4, his close combat attacks aren't hard to avoid. It takes him forever to get anywhere.

He really needs an officer around to speed him up. Other characters like Jyn can really, really mess up his day with the stun ability and Diala can really beat the tar out of him with her ability and the "Sneak Attack" command card.

Don't get me wrong, he's very powerful, but he needs support to be very effective. Vader can only be in one part of the map at a time, playing keep away or distracting him with fodder to go claim objectives can worked

While Vader is indeed great, I've found that at only speed 4, his close combat attacks aren't hard to avoid. It takes him forever to get anywhere.

He really needs an officer around to speed him up. Other characters like Jyn can really, really mess up his day with the stun ability and Diala can really beat the tar out of him with her ability and the "Sneak Attack" command card.

Don't get me wrong, he's very powerful, but he needs support to be very effective. Vader can only be in one part of the map at a time, playing keep away or distracting him with fodder to go claim objectives can worked

I 100% agree. I have found the Royal Guard Champion to be 3x better for less points since hes move 6. You give up the some of the tankiness and Force Choke, but you get to keep Brutality and get an ability when they try to clear out your cheap guys to straight up murder things.

The Officer giving that guy a move then move, attack/brutality is difficult to handle. And he races around the map, which is great for objectives or laying a big problem in your opponent's face virtually anywhere.

I've played with/against both the RGC and Vader around 8 times each and the RGC is much more brutal (no pun intended). The other factor of course is the RGC gives you more points for beefier support for him, which makes the list even stronger.

Vader can be countered wih Diala due to her a Shattering Blow ability. That and some heavy firepower from the Trooper can also mess up his day. Remember, he has two black die, but cannot fully dodge anything, so will always be taking damage from big attacks.

I have a concern with Vader in the Skirmish format. for his point cost, I think he's too good. 16 HP with 2 black dice for defense (and a reroll to boot) and having 2 red and a yellow dice for his attacks?! he's a melee beast. then he can Force Choke someone from across the map for 2-3 guaranteed damage (no other figure can come close to do this).

he is sooo good that most Imperial Squads will run him. this will cause Rebel squads to try and run some sort of anti-Vader build to be competitive. this will cause the Skirmish mode to stagnate very quickly. I've experienced something just like this before. back when WotC (Wizards of the Coast) had their Star Wars miniatures game, they came out with a figure of General Obi-Wan Kenobi (GOWK). this one figure practically broke the game so badly, it was the ONLY figure to be banned from tournaments mainly due to the only squads that were showing up were GOWK and anti-GOWK. then WotC came back and modified how some of his abilities to work to rebalance him.

I fear something similar happening with Vader due to his combination of damage output and survivability. even though he's 18 points (almost half your squad), he has the potential to do a lot of damage before both squads really start to engage each other. then when gets up close he will wreck things very quickly. Brutality to attack multiple targets + Force Choke, he's can kill multiple unique characters a turn. not saying Vader is unstoppable, but I have concerns that the game will devolve into Vader vs anti-Vader squads.

Have you played a game yet? Vader only has speed 4. Missions will easy get you 20-25. Have you seen the missions? a lot of them are speed heavy and even a few have counters to low hp guys vs his support. He costs 18 points there is a thing called stun, Pierce, Blast(cant block) and the rebels seem to have a lot of command cards that let them get extra actives and turns. The maps are a lot closer together than Wotc. Pretty much turn one you can attack if they make a move. Doesn't Force Choke still target?

I have only played a few games but you really only need to get missions and get 20 points. Vader is half your team and isn't the best to build around. Yes Probes and officers are some of the best support around and stormtroopers are pretty good for there cost. Really all of those guys don't have a lot of hit points and fall easy. From the few games I have played he is really command card heavy to make him worth his points.

To be honest I think the Champion is better for the cost than Vader yeah Choke is beastly but you do need to move vader and with how close maps are. Speed 6 will be big I think

Nexus are great at getting in to the action because of their speed 6/Mobile and Cleave 2 have a rare Green/Red.

There are counters that are not hard counters unlike the WOTC game.

Kurt brings up a great point Diala is a vader counter if I have ever seen one. Mak + shadow ops to pretty force them not to use command cards for a turn. Jyn and her attack out of turn? Han/Chewie are a pain with there double block. Luke isn't bad for his cost with speed 5 and Pierce. Then there are the Rebel Sabs great counter to vader (Pierce, Blast and Stun). I am guessing the elite version will have more hps.

Really I think the game will be fine once we get wave 1.

I have a concern with Vader in the Skirmish format. for his point cost, I think he's too good. 16 HP with 2 black dice for defense (and a reroll to boot) and having 2 red and a yellow dice for his attacks?! he's a melee beast. then he can Force Choke someone from across the map for 2-3 guaranteed damage (no other figure can come close to do this).

he is sooo good that most Imperial Squads will run him. this will cause Rebel squads to try and run some sort of anti-Vader build to be competitive. this will cause the Skirmish mode to stagnate very quickly. I've experienced something just like this before. back when WotC (Wizards of the Coast) had their Star Wars miniatures game, they came out with a figure of General Obi-Wan Kenobi (GOWK). this one figure practically broke the game so badly, it was the ONLY figure to be banned from tournaments mainly due to the only squads that were showing up were GOWK and anti-GOWK. then WotC came back and modified how some of his abilities to work to rebalance him.

I fear something similar happening with Vader due to his combination of damage output and survivability. even though he's 18 points (almost half your squad), he has the potential to do a lot of damage before both squads really start to engage each other. then when gets up close he will wreck things very quickly. Brutality to attack multiple targets + Force Choke, he's can kill multiple unique characters a turn. not saying Vader is unstoppable, but I have concerns that the game will devolve into Vader vs anti-Vader squads.

Have you played a game yet? Vader only has speed 4. Missions will easy get you 20-25. Have you seen the missions? a lot of them are speed heavy and even a few have counters to low hp guys vs his support. He costs 18 points there is a thing called stun, Pierce, Blast(cant block) and the rebels seem to have a lot of command cards that let them get extra actives and turns. The maps are a lot closer together than Wotc. Pretty much turn one you can attack if they make a move. Doesn't Force Choke still target?

I have only played a few games but you really only need to get missions and get 20 points. Vader is half your team and isn't the best to build around. Yes Probes and officers are some of the best support around and stormtroopers are pretty good for there cost. Really all of those guys don't have a lot of hit points and fall easy. From the few games I have played he is really command card heavy to make him worth his points.

To be honest I think the Champion is better for the cost than Vader yeah Choke is beastly but you do need to move vader and with how close maps are. Speed 6 will be big I think

Nexus are great at getting in to the action because of their speed 6/Mobile and Cleave 2 have a rare Green/Red.

There are counters that are not hard counters unlike the WOTC game.

Kurt brings up a great point Diala is a vader counter if I have ever seen one. Mak + shadow ops to pretty force them not to use command cards for a turn. Jyn and her attack out of turn? Han/Chewie are a pain with there double block. Luke isn't bad for his cost with speed 5 and Pierce. Then there are the Rebel Sabs great counter to vader (Pierce, Blast and Stun). I am guessing the elite version will have more hps.

Really I think the game will be fine once we get wave 1.

A) Many of them will face/meet up and hurt each other

B) It'll be "a thing" to counter

One thing you can, nay, MUST do is to make sure that you're never trying to melee him. As my "battle reports" shows it is in those instances that things go wrong fast

Why do you say this? I would think because of pierce you would want to try and base him? only as a finisher in most cases. Yes you want to use range attacks but think Pierce/melee could be good if you can hit him at the end of the round and get init to take him out.

Why do you say this? I would think because of pierce you would want to try and base him? only as a finisher in most cases. Yes you want to use range attacks but think Pierce/melee could be good if you can hit him at the end of the round and get init to take him out.

But you die in close combat with him.

Why do you say this? I would think because of pierce you would want to try and base him? only as a finisher in most cases. Yes you want to use range attacks but think Pierce/melee could be good if you can hit him at the end of the round and get init to take him out.

But you die in close combat with him.

There is a great reason why people don't stick around when Vader shows up...

They enjoy living!

yes I have played the Skirmish mode several times. speed 4 hasn't been an issue with me when I run Vader since, as you've well admitted, the maps are not that big.

Stun really doesn't hurt Vader that much. yes it can keep him at bay (maybe), but you're not guaranteed to get Stun.

Pierce is really the only way to handle Vader in my opinion. but if the Imperial player is smart he'll be able to avoid/neutralize any big threat.

for Blast, its easy to handle. don't bunch up.

Force Choke does indeed still need to target, but it cannot be defended against and has unlimited range if you get yourself into a good position. it also forces your opponent to take more damage from the strain effect or send cards from his/her command deck to the discard pile. since most of the maps are very objective based, Vader can hold down an entire area by himself which allows the rest of your squad to do whatever.

Really I disagree that its hards not to bunch your guys the maps are a lot smaller than WOTC and I had no trouble with Gungans back in the day.

Idea of Elite Saboteur stats

I think its kind of silly to say a piece is like GOWK when the game hasn't even been out a week and we don't have a true understanding of the meta or game until wave 1 and the tournament rules are out.

I saw some where a command card coming out in wave 1 for countering melee attacks

I have had no problem not bunching my guys up on any of the missions in the campaign and skirmish games as the Imperial player. since you can take actions between movement; a ST can move next to another, take his shot, then continue moving.

For the Elite Saboteurs, I'm guessing those abilities you mentioned (with the exception of shooting through figures) are surge abilities. those are not guaranteed to happen and can be cancelled with defense dice.

for the command card, it only affects smugglers. which is what...2 figures? not really a counter especially when you probably have to play that card at the start of the round. there's a little thing called "tactics"; so why would I try to close on a smuggler with Vader when you have that card going? I'd just sit back, use Force Choke (which IS a guarantee) and move out of LOS.

I am coming around to Choke just not sure what the big difference will be vs push in SWM. Yes Push was really really good at one point. I just think because the game has many layers there will be balance when its all said and done. I also am not sure Choke and Vaders support is a winning squad. I will give you that Choke might be OP.

Really the game cant be judged till a year in if that. With any game from FFG it takes a while to really get a good mixed meta.

From what we have seen I really do think the meta is a lot more open than most games that start out.

Lets just see what Wave 1 command cards and mission cards do for the game before we really judge the meta since FFG play tested the game with Wave 1.

I am coming around to Choke just not sure what the big difference will be vs push in SWM. Yes Push was really really good at one point. I just think because the game has many layers there will be balance when its all said and done. I also am not sure Choke and Vaders support is a winning squad. I will give you that Choke might be OP.

Really the game cant be judged till a year in if that. With any game from FFG it takes a while to really get a good mixed meta.

From what we have seen I really do think the meta is a lot more open than most games that start out.

Lets just see what Wave 1 command cards and mission cards do for the game before we really judge the meta since FFG play tested the game with Wave 1.

Vader is just good. Choke is only 2 damage, with a possibility of a 3rd (more often than not, its 2 imo since so many command cards are specific to certain units/situations) which sounds like a lot but it's not really. His support will get wrecked by a competent player and then he will have to spend the rest of the game chasing around the enemy while they do the mission.

I've said it multiple times, the RGC is much harder to handle. The speed 6 is so annoying. He has no trouble coming around the corner, down the hall, AND hitting your fast Ranged unit. Sure, you lose choke and some of the (imo) pretty meh Command Cards but the RGC is much more flexible. And if they try to kill his support, he can move 2/attack out of activation, which is brutal. If anything, I think Vader is fine but the RGC is under costed and should have been 5 speed.

I think Vader is FOTM for obvious reasons, but give it 2-3 weeks and a lot of people will be totally over it.

Since RGC is the topic right now Question about Executor and SD since Executor says once per round and SD happens at the end of the round. Can you still use SD then Executor?

Edit should of read the full phase rules and when rounds end.

The main power in Vader is Choke and his defense. RGC is more balanced. 15 is a lot which is a big reason I am not seeing how Chewie costs that much but time will tell. Again we need to see all the command cards to really judge the meta.

Since RGC is the topic right now Question about Executor and SD since Executor says once per round and SD happens at the end of the round. Can you still use SD then Executor?

The main power in Vader is Choke and his defense. RGC is more balanced. 15 is a lot which is a big reason I am not seeing how Chewie costs that much but time will tell. Again we need to see all the command cards to really judge the meta.

Yes if you haven't used Executor before the droid triggers and the droid SD's within 3 spaces of the RGC, he could trigger it.

I like that trick more than a choke. Odds are that is a game changing move not easy to setup but a great finishing move. My plan would be to have init set up too just to make sure it works. RGC is more my play style. as great as choke can be just not a fan of Vader not my play style like Weiss or RBC more and I get a extra act or two.

I've only played one skirmish game so far. In that game, in one turn, I lured Luke to the dark side, and had him blow away Fenn with a few well-placed blaster shots, and once I was done with Luke, I force choked him to death.

Sufficed to say, I'm hooked on this game.

We played our first skirmish to learn the basics tonight. Vader was beastly, finished Luke with his last three points with a force choke, whooped up on the wookie with his saber, and was just a general annoyance. I tried to just ignore him and his slowness, we randomly picked the holocron scenario from Vader's blister. Since it was speed based, I split up and just went for holocrons. Got two dropped off and picked off everyone around Vader. I was able to screen a couple force choke targets he really wanted, but he is nasty. Looking forward to seeing how we learn to deal with him. Game is so **** fun.

I've only played one skirmish game so far. In that game, in one turn, I lured Luke to the dark side, and had him blow away Fenn with a few well-placed blaster shots, and once I was done with Luke, I force choked him to death.

Sufficed to say, I'm hooked on this game.

It really DOES bring the families together. That made my heart all warm and mushy