No i have to say that you're clearly basing your view of a very small sample group.

I used to manage all of the UKs organised play for Games Workshop for five years and also be flown to events in Europe to consult with and advise other stores/shops in other countries about how to set up gaming events and make them a success.

I have a reasonable idea about how to get most gamers 'into' a gaming system

To link to the OP my 'help' would be to suggest not jumping into list building shenanigans and to play with the starter scenarios which either give you a characterful set build, allow you to make a build with restrictions or.. in some cases have a free hand.

Honestly the guys at FFG put those in there for the express purpose of making the game more engaging to the more casual player so they are ideal to 'get someone into it'.

But like i say I just used to do that sort of thing (write introductory scenarios for events) for the worlds biggest wargames company for half a decade.... what would i know

Let her pick her list. If she is familiar with Star Wars, the she will probably prefer one ship/pilot to another. Picking the toys that you play with is half the fun. Once you see what she has, you can make a list to match (e.g. bust out your TIE Advanced if she takes a Hawk with no upgrades).

I assume that your wife has at least a normal IQ, so don't be afraid to actually play the full game with her. The only caveat to that is that asteroids can be a real buzzkill when players are new to the movement templates, so plplay a game or two without them.

With regard to upgrades, my wife picked her upgrades for our first game based on what she liked the picture of. She, like anyone else would, figured out what worked in the game and is now perfectly capable of optimizing a squad.

The most important thing is not getting too heavy into what someone you are playing with doesn't care about. It is probably not a good idea to spend an excessive amount of time explaining things. I could debate Predator vs. Lone Wolf for an hour, but my wife is much more casual about the game and would much rather just play the game.

I'm going to back the suggestion of using different types of ship (turreted, dodgy, tanky, etc). I found the rules were pretty easy to remember, what I found difficult was getting a feel for moving and learning how to fly each ship against each other ship. For some of the more complicated rules, you could print off a flow chart for easy reference. If she doesn't play a lot of games, that would probably help a lot. For example, the rules for who can modify attack/defence dice can be easily made into a flow chart that can be checked over much more quickly than looking through the rulebook. You could probably do the same with action resolution, if need be.

The reason why you use basic ships with no/few upgrades to teach someone the game is because they don't even know the basic rules yet. Everything is simple in this game but giving someone a ship like the interceptor or donut hole dash with lots of options when they don't even understand those options can be overwhelming. That's why to learn the basics two ties vs an x-wing is great, you don't even finish that game usually, 10-20 min on that and they're good to go.

The reason why you use basic ships with no/few upgrades to teach someone the game is because they don't even know the basic rules yet.

Like you didn't start out with Luke and R2-D2. .

Sure, you don't go full out with titles and giving them Echo but a little more synergy? Sure.

I showed the game to a friend the other day, he agreed to 100 points right away after 2 demo turns of 1 X vs 2 TIE/f:

Rebels:

Dutch + Ion Cannon Turret

Biggs + R2D6 + Veteran Instinct (proxied, or replace with R2 astromech)

Rookie Pilot

Blue + FCS

Imps:

Mauler Mithel

Night Beast

Academy Pilot

Soontir + PTL (can be replaced by Carnor Jax, almost same PS-predator effect for shoot order)

Royal Guard + PTL

It's relatively simple as it keeps to 2 types of ships for imperials but still invites you to try out how to ffly them differently (Mauler as flanker, Night Beast as jouster/tank and Acad as blocker).

For rebels, the 4 small ship archetype is an old classic and you can immediately use the easy Dutch synergy in the squad and use Dutch as a buffer-protector against flankers.

No i have to say that you're clearly basing your view of a very small sample group.

I used to manage all of the UKs organised play for Games Workshop for five years and also be flown to events in Europe to consult with and advise other stores/shops in other countries about how to set up gaming events and make them a success.

I have a reasonable idea about how to get most gamers 'into' a gaming system

I've seen you use this as a defense on so many things and as a bragging point, bravo to you. I have a decent amount of experience in gaming and not just tabletop. I am going by a small group, yes, between regionals, 2 store championships and multiple smaller tournaments up and down the state of California, I usually talk to the players about their experience with the game. I personally would like to do some scenario type games but once I start asking these players if they have had any experience or be interested they usually say no to both or show only little interest into scenarios. Many enjoy the fact that they can just put a quick 100 point list, shoot the breeze, and roll some dice. I'm not saying scenario based play is bad, far from it. What I'm saying though, is for a novice player, most only care about learning the ship and blowing stuff up in the star wars universe.

I get a kick out how some of you are contradicting each other on what's simple and what's complicated.

What's complicated to someone happens to be a very subjective and personal thing.

The point isn't if it can be grasped, but how long would it take a person to digest everything in the rules,

and do it naturally without having to refer to the rules or steps in a round list.

It isn't going to happen on the first game instantly for most people.

Throwing someone in the deep end and expecting they won't drown

isn't the best way to teach someone how to swim,

it's more likely how people come to be afraid of the water.

If you take any individual aspect or rule, by itself it isn't complicated

but dump the whole rule book and all aspects on someone

and I'm certain someone not a Star Wars fan or gamer would lose interest.

I know plenty of people who would take one look at everything mentioned on

page 1 and page 2 of the rulebook and decide that the game is not for them.

I second this.

So my recommendation to the OP is: ask your wife!

Ask what she likes and doesn't like, what she feels she needs/wants to learn more, whether she would like to try more ships or a different type, or a different mission goal, etc.

If she's enjoying the game, she is likely to learn more from it, and even if she doesn't, she's enjoying the game. That's supposed to be the real point, isn't it?

- H8

uhh. everyones probably tired of me saying this but:

two 24 point lists, no uniques: total 48 points each.

ex.

X with hull

B FCS

vs.

Saber PTL

2 ties

--

After that, just have her pick 3 ships she likes, add some upgrades. then have her pick 3 ships for you. and you balance it out best you can. something like 70 to 80 points ish.

or

you can also go to UK builder Xwing and hit the random button and generate lists you are able to field for both of you at random. and play like that. its REALLY FUN.

No i have to say that you're clearly basing your view of a very small sample group.

I used to manage all of the UKs organised play for Games Workshop for five years and also be flown to events in Europe to consult with and advise other stores/shops in other countries about how to set up gaming events and make them a success.

I have a reasonable idea about how to get most gamers 'into' a gaming system

I've seen you use this as a defense on so many things and as a bragging point, bravo to you. I have a decent amount of experience in gaming and not just tabletop. I am going by a small group, yes, between regionals, 2 store championships and multiple smaller tournaments up and down the state of California, I usually talk to the players about their experience with the game. I personally would like to do some scenario type games but once I start asking these players if they have had any experience or be interested they usually say no to both or show only little interest into scenarios. Many enjoy the fact that they can just put a quick 100 point list, shoot the breeze, and roll some dice. I'm not saying scenario based play is bad, far from it. What I'm saying though, is for a novice player, most only care about learning the ship and blowing stuff up in the star wars universe.

Dont be obtuse

Its not a bragging point, i'm pointing out that i've worked in this industry for *long* time and consequently know a lot more about the nature of the wargames industry and its players than most people. Even those who play a lot of tournaments.

Your 'tournament experience' in this case proves my point. Your sample group is of a certain niche of players.

A player niche over represented on this forum but not representative of 'household' gamers at all.

So to summarise, your small(ish) sample group of tournament 100 point death match event players dont like scenarios.

Wow, that's surprising.

If you want to do more scenario games, try playing with friends and family , not pick up games at shops with stangers. Those sort of games clearly need a more 'cut and dried' approach. Its harder to develop a story with someone you've never met before but creating a game with a narrative with mates is *honestly* far more satisfying.

If you were local i'd invite you over to play with our gaming group.

If it helps look at the blog i write with an ex studio buddy (tales from the maelstrom). We're a bit out of date at the mo as we've been too busy to update for a long time but you'll see that every game of 40k we play is a story, an adventure.. we dont just line up 1000 point armies and slog at each other as after a few years this gets dull (been playing 20k for about 20+ years now )

This bit on our group 'philosophy' was written by my mate Andy who currently writes for ForgeWorld so you may have read his gw stuff

http://talesfromthemaelstrom.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/why-we-play.html

A typical game for us would be like this

http://talesfromthemaelstrom.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/zoats-vs-imperial-army-deathworld.html

We treat Xwing the same way.

Yesterday in fact I did an intro game for my mate Joey. It was 60 points a side and had the loosest of 'scenarios'... a flight of Z95 on a training flight (3 bandits led by Blount) were ambushed by Darth Vader and 3 academy ties.

Bit of a story to get into it but the games mechanics were simple ships of comparable value but with one special character aside who could show the importance of extra actions.

I *could* have let him choose a 100 point list and shredded him with 100 points i knew worked well but where would the fun be in that.

Anyway I thought you were leaving this line of conversation?

Yesterday in fact I did an intro game for my mate Joey. It was 60 points a side and had the loosest of 'scenarios'... a flight of Z95 on a training flight (3 bandits led by Blount) were ambushed by Darth Vader and 3 academy ties.

Bit of a story to get into it but the games mechanics were simple ships of comparable value but with one special character aside who could show the importance of extra actions.

I *could* have let him choose a 100 point list and shredded him with 100 points i knew worked well but where would the fun be in that.

Anyway I thought you were leaving this line of conversation?

Somewhere between watching the movies and smashing things with a hammer

there is a spectrum of types of players and the types of games they like to play

and I think each individual has to place themselves on that spectrum.

I'm reminded of those boardgames were use use a DVD player to play

a clip from a movie at a give point in the game, eg Clue DVD edition.

I personally would go for a cinematic expansion for X-wing where in the mission

you paused at certain stages and played a clip from the movies.

I'm sure there are others at the opposite end of the spectrum who would love

to be able to take a hammer to the miniatures of the opponents they defeat.

I get a kick out how some of you are contradicting each other on what's simple and what's complicated.

What's complicated to someone happens to be a very subjective and personal thing.

The point isn't if it can be grasped, but how long would it take a person to digest everything in the rules,

and do it naturally without having to refer to the rules or steps in a round list.

It isn't going to happen on the first game instantly for most people.

Throwing someone in the deep end and expecting they won't drown

isn't the best way to teach someone how to swim,

it's more likely how people come to be afraid of the water.

If you take any individual aspect or rule, by itself it isn't complicated

but dump the whole rule book and all aspects on someone

and I'm certain someone not a Star Wars fan or gamer would lose interest.

I know plenty of people who would take one look at everything mentioned on

page 1 and page 2 of the rulebook and decide that the game is not for them.

I second this.

So my recommendation to the OP is: ask your wife!

Ask what she likes and doesn't like, what she feels she needs/wants to learn more, whether she would like to try more ships or a different type, or a different mission goal, etc.

If she's enjoying the game, she is likely to learn more from it, and even if she doesn't, she's enjoying the game. That's supposed to be the real point, isn't it?

- H8

My wife uses this on her computer to pick her ships/upgrades

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v3!s!

and emails me her build and I put both together to play.

Just found a- and b-wing and a slave 1 in local store, edited 1st post.

I think i'll let her choose the ships she likes and try to build a list with them. Tactics and understanding the ships' pro and cons will.come playing i hope!

It's too much to learn for someone new, especially if they haven't played miniatures before. I found that if you overwhelm someone, they tend to get turned off by the game.

I half wrote replies to this a dozen times and then decided not to.

I guess it comes down to this - X-wing is a simple game and I have taught it to dozens of people by throwing them into furballs with lots of players, lots of ships, and lots of upgrades.

The idea that this game is too difficult for people to comprehend is sort of - weird because it isn't a complicated game.

Frankly, and I don't even know how to put this - you are either under the impression the people around you are stupid, or the people around you are actually stupid.

Give her the full movie experience: let her have an enormous fleet of 10+ TIEs, allow them to chase the Falcon to the edge of the board, and then tell her she lost because Han hit the hyperdrive and escaped.

Then get used to sleeping on the couch.

Okay guys, good job, we've almost succeeded in turning another thread into an argument. Almost there! Just going to quote what bubblepopmei highlighted earlier. Last two sentences are important.

I do not understand the idea of playing the core set with no upgrades to ease people into things. Humans are capable of more than that. It is condescending.

Give her a list that includes maneuverability, tanky, shooty, and control. Let her learn what styles she likes.

OP requested some fun and easy lists. Everyone can identify with strong ties to the storyline and/or iconic pilots. Taking into account what ships you already own. Here we go:

Rebels

It's too much to learn for someone new, especially if they haven't played miniatures before. I found that if you overwhelm someone, they tend to get turned off by the game.

I half wrote replies to this a dozen times and then decided not to.

I guess it comes down to this - X-wing is a simple game and I have taught it to dozens of people by throwing them into furballs with lots of players, lots of ships, and lots of upgrades.

The idea that this game is too difficult for people to comprehend is sort of - weird because it isn't a complicated game.

Frankly, and I don't even know how to put this - you are either under the impression the people around you are stupid, or the people around you are actually stupid.

The thing is, some people are just not the gamer type.

You can't assume because he's trying to get his wife to play

that she is a gamer or that she isn't the "Risk is enough for me" type.

I play the boardgame version of Axis & Allies and I know people

who want nothing to do with it, but who would be happy playing Risk.

X-wing was made to be a simplified simulation of something complicated.

That doesn't mean that some people won't still find it too rule intensive.

Chess is too complicated for some people, they would rather play checkers or backgammon.

X-wing is a complicated game,

it took me months to absorb everything to the point where I wasn't making mistakes.

You have TEN relevant stat types on every pilot card, if you include ship size and faction,

that's without mentioning the different types of actions, and the different types of upgrades.

Imagine if you had to play chess with something like that for each piece... would you play?

It's too much to learn for someone new, especially if they haven't played miniatures before. I found that if you overwhelm someone, they tend to get turned off by the game.

I half wrote replies to this a dozen times and then decided not to.

I guess it comes down to this - X-wing is a simple game and I have taught it to dozens of people by throwing them into furballs with lots of players, lots of ships, and lots of upgrades.

The idea that this game is too difficult for people to comprehend is sort of - weird because it isn't a complicated game.

Frankly, and I don't even know how to put this - you are either under the impression the people around you are stupid, or the people around you are actually stupid.

The thing is, some people are just not the gamer type.

You can't assume because he's trying to get his wife to play

that she is a gamer or that she isn't the "Risk is enough for me" type.

I play the boardgame version of Axis & Allies and I know people

who want nothing to do with it, but who would be happy playing Risk.

X-wing was made to be a simplified simulation of something complicated.

That doesn't mean that some people won't still find it too rule intensive.

Chess is too complicated for some people, they would rather play checkers or backgammon.

X-wing is a complicated game,

it took me months to absorb everything to the point where I wasn't making mistakes.

You have TEN relevant stat types on every pilot card, if you include ship size and faction,

that's without mentioning the different types of actions, and the different types of upgrades.

Imagine if you had to play chess with something like that for each piece... would you play?

Bubblepopmei where did you get that? I'm sorry if you think that I think everyone is stupid with two sentences I wrote. Gabe is right with complexity being relative to each individual. I've taught my 5 and 7 year old how to play but it was a slow and basic process initially, but they know enough to play the game now. My wife still hates playing this game, and she does think it's complicated, but she is awesome at Rummikub which I think is confusing.

Let her win.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I disagree with this approach.

I think that it's appropriate to do things like:

- Ask if and when she'd like tactical advice.

- Allow her to take back / change her dial after revealing it, or placing the ship at the new location ("oh, I didn't mean to go there") until she's used to the maneuvering rules.

- Give yourself a points or matchup handicap.

- Play scenarios, if she finds those interesting.

But "letting" someone win cheapens the whole experience, IMO. Unless the other person can't handle losing (which is going to be unpleasant once you stop pulling punches), or you're not actually interested in actually playing a real game with them (in which case, why are you going through the motions), it just puts things in a weird place.

We played... and she almost won!

I played Vader (pre fix), a defender and 2 fighters, she went for 2x- 2b.Well... she's an asteroid goddess and i only won because her lack of experience (and because Vader surveyed a potentially fatal asteroid crash).

She lost her last ship with Vader and a fighter down to 1Hp each, while the 1st fighter ws destroyed quite early and the defender was hunted down with fierce determination....

I'm afraid i created a monster!

We played... and she almost won!

I played Vader (pre fix), a defender and 2 fighters, she went for 2x- 2b.Well... she's an asteroid goddess and i only won because her lack of experience (and because Vader surveyed a potentially fatal asteroid crash).

She lost her last ship with Vader and a fighter down to 1Hp each, while the 1st fighter ws destroyed quite early and the defender was hunted down with fierce determination....

I'm afraid i created a monster!

The only reason I won was because I rolled an eyeball

on a Luke Skywalker crew reroll, which he makes a hit.

Congratulations.

I should've seen it coming... she blasted me to dust and then swept away the battlefield!

Ok, I flew a very weak list, but she did not made big mistakes and with a XXYB list crushed my ships saving an untouched B and a wounded Biggs.

I played bad, flew worse but... the Wookie won (and asked me to play again tomorrow)!