Here's the thing.

I'd spend the money to buy engine upgrades, but I am not spending $60 on a Falcon when all I need are two upgrade cards. I'd spend money on c3po, but not $100 on a CR90 that has nothing else I want in it.

They either need to sell singles, reprint on-demand cards often, or always have stock of every ship.

As it is, they're losing money by not selling singles.

Really... they have to reprint them constantly because they are out of stock... where is any benefit to making a card pack.. they sell out all the old stock...

Agreed, but the $30 cost of Han/YT-1300 alone, let alone the cost of the card pack, not to mention enough ships/cards to fill out the rest of a list, is still way over some ridiculous $20 price point.

The issue is not purchasing ships you intend to play, its spending additional money on ships simply for the upgrade cards limited to that box. Many people purchased a Tantive IV for no other reason than for the upgrade cards included in the box, with no intention of ever playing epic games. Many fellow games don't have that luxury to spend $60 to simply get 1 shiny new card, so they end up having to proxy or purchase the card second hand. This is not the end of the world, but it does prevent some players from participating in tournies or playing in LGS's that aren't friendly to proxies. Some of us will be buying Starvipers simply for autothrusters, and Raiders simply for x1 cards, but for those without that extra cash lying around, they'll be SOL unless FFG changes its policy. IMO FFG should offer card pack, at the very least it will help with its current distribution issues.

Not having the x1 Title, C3PO, or an individual card does not prevent a player from meaningfully participating in events. By that line of thinking not having a full possible assortment of any ship or upgrade from either side would prevent players from participating in events.

Specific builds will indeed be unavailable to some people, Fat Han being but a one example. We could make a list of the many upgrades which require someone to buy ships from a different faction/buy huge ships, many of which are top-tier and included in competitive lists: C3PO, Lone Wolf, Autothrusters, Ruthlessness, Experimental Interface, and Predator being but a few examples off the top of my head. Play Imps? Too bad, ya still need to pick up that YT-2400 for Lone Wolf+EI. I'm sure we can add x1 Ties to that list when Raiders come out. This doesn't prevent people from playing in competition, but it can severely hamstring them if they want to actually contend.

This doesn't prevent people from playing in competition, but it can severely hamstring them if they want to actually contend.

Then people need to be aware of what they need to contend in a competitive event. It's not like we're talking about food or shelter here. We're talking about a game which makes it a luxury item.

There's no social injustice involved on mine or ffg's part.

Oh and Boris_the_Dwarf's only reason to post here is to be some sort of SJW the only time he seems to show up is to complain about the price of X-Wing. And how FFG just wants to punish poor people.

Typically this involves BS story about all these people who supposedly would play the game if it were cheaper, as if this is such an expensive game, and how it is some sort of inherent right of people to play the game, and how the rest of us should suffer in the name of the X-Wing oppressed

It's not the only time I show up to post. It's the only ime you notice my name. Which is typical, people notice the names of the authors when they read something they don't like.

Not sure how branding components of the game to make them more available on a wider scale causes you to suffer since, as you say, it is a luxury item. But maybe you know something about that which I don't.

No, it's the listening to you that causes the suffering.

I'm off to oppress some poor people now to cheer myself up.

I for one still would like to see the upgrades released in both the ships and as packs that could be bought. I don't see it happening, but it would be nice. I would also like to see pegs released in packs for purchase.

It would be nice if they put the upgrades on print on demand if they didn't want to release them separate from the ships.

Mainly, I would just like the **** card sleeves to be in stock. I am always short every release. I have been to several FLGS with no sleeves to be found.

Name calling didn't cheer you up?

For the record... Another person can't make you feel anything. If you experience suffering, then you are taking things way too personally over a game produced by someone you (presumably) don't work for or have any financial stake in.

Stepping away if its that personal for you isn't the worst idea. good luck in your oppressions of others.

The only reason not to do it is because they don't care about having a larger customer base. Putting the x1 cards in the raider is just another in-your-face anti-poor people manuever to keep them from getting interested in the game due to lack of affordability. You may think that is dumb supposition or that it doesn't affect you but 100,000 customers is better than 10,000 when it comes to continued game development.

If I may offer a bit of advice?

Laying out your initial agrgument with a psuedo socialist rant isnt going to endear you or your idea on a board full of capitalist leaning people...just sayin. Welcome to the capitalist system...enjoy your stay Comrade.

And as has been said before...if your friends dont think this game is affordable...then mini wargaming isnt for them...this is hands down the most affordable mini wargame I have ever played or even seen...

Here's the thing.

I'd spend the money to buy engine upgrades, but I am not spending $60 on a Falcon when all I need are two upgrade cards. I'd spend money on c3po, but not $100 on a CR90 that has nothing else I want in it.

They either need to sell singles, reprint on-demand cards often, or always have stock of every ship.

As it is, they're losing money by not selling singles.

No, they are losing out on purchases from you. On the flip side if someone that really just wants the specefic card decides to now buy the ship, when they may have not otherwise, then FFG has just made a sale.

FFG is only losing out on money if you believe the money to be made in lost sales is greater then the number of additional sales gained. You don't have access to the information needed to support your assertion.

While true, they could increase the markup on single cards to easily offset any losses in sales.

A card costs what, maybe $0.05 to make? Selling packs of cards for a few bucks makes a lot of sense, especially since it makes the game more accessible to new players who weren't around when, say, the falcon came out two years ago.

Sure there are reprints, but the bottleneck is the models themselves. Selling a "Wave 2 upgrade card pack" for example, would make a lot of sense when they aren't getting money off of new sales anyway.

Since you seem to be well educated in matters of business, marketing, manufacturing and such, I highly recommend you start your own business. Maybe make your own miniatures. You can sell cards separately.

Don't want to do that?

Maybe then you should stop speculating how best FFG should run their business. Either pony up the money to play or don't. The reason why these products are always out of stock is because they are selling really well. FFG is doing something right; very few companies have such a great problem. The business model clearly works well.

Here's a thought. Sell a mission pack. It has a mission tha is thematic and some of the upgrades that are needed to make it happen.Maybe toss in an alt art card. Plus side you don't have to buy ships you dislike. Down side it wouls cast about as mucha s a small ship.

Like Battle of Yavin. Mission for trench run. Upgrades like Stay on Target, Alt Luke card.

This is actually a neat idea, it would be similar to the Supplement materials sold for RPG games. It's just the materials to enable play. Some custom tokens, a few thematic mini-cards (talents, mods, etc), and a mission description with printouts (like the list sheets included with the Transport). List on the back the required ships, be it specific (like 3 X-wings and 5 TIEs), size based ("at least 3 small base ships per faction required"), or points (100pts per side required to play). They already do this for the Aces expansions anyway.

The only reason not to do it is because they don't care about having a larger customer base. Putting the x1 cards in the raider is just another in-your-face anti-poor people manuever to keep them from getting interested in the game due to lack of affordability. You may think that is dumb supposition or that it doesn't affect you but 100,000 customers is better than 10,000 when it comes to continued game development.

If I may offer a bit of advice?

Laying out your initial agrgument with a psuedo socialist rant isnt going to endear you or your idea on a board full of capitalist leaning people...just sayin. Welcome to the capitalist system...enjoy your stay Comrade.

And as has been said before...if your friends dont think this game is affordable...then mini wargaming isnt for them...this is hands down the most affordable mini wargame I have ever played or even seen...

Well, that is a bit off. His whole plight of the poor argument is utter bunk but this is in no way a cheap miniature game to play casually, let alone competitive. Now as value for your money goes it is top notch, $15 retail for a per-painted, well sculpted model that can be played out of the box is almost a steal, and I am poor.

There are dozens of miniature war games that are cheaper (nothing GW), and some far better, than x-wing. Just be prepared to break out your paints and put some time into to the hobby. You want pre-paints, you want want a flashy iconic setting to game, you will have to pay a bit.

Here's the thing.

I'd spend the money to buy engine upgrades, but I am not spending $60 on a Falcon when all I need are two upgrade cards. I'd spend money on c3po, but not $100 on a CR90 that has nothing else I want in it.

They either need to sell singles, reprint on-demand cards often, or always have stock of every ship.

As it is, they're losing money by not selling singles.

No, they are losing out on purchases from you. On the flip side if someone that really just wants the specefic card decides to now buy the ship, when they may have not otherwise, then FFG has just made a sale.

FFG is only losing out on money if you believe the money to be made in lost sales is greater then the number of additional sales gained. You don't have access to the information needed to support your assertion.

While true, they could increase the markup on single cards to easily offset any losses in sales.

A card costs what, maybe $0.05 to make? Selling packs of cards for a few bucks makes a lot of sense, especially since it makes the game more accessible to new players who weren't around when, say, the falcon came out two years ago.

Sure there are reprints, but the bottleneck is the models themselves. Selling a "Wave 2 upgrade card pack" for example, would make a lot of sense when they aren't getting money off of new sales anyway.

Since you seem to be well educated in matters of business, marketing, manufacturing and such, I highly recommend you start your own business. Maybe make your own miniatures. You can sell cards separately.

Don't want to do that?

Maybe then you should stop speculating how best FFG should run their business. Either pony up the money to play or don't. The reason why these products are always out of stock is because they are selling really well. FFG is doing something right; very few companies have such a great problem. The business model clearly works well.

It's like saying you can never suggest nor critique anything unless you yourself can and want to do better.

Your favorite professional sports team just mess up? No complaining unless you have your own professional team.

Your country can't get anything done? Why aren't you running for office then? If you aren't, you shouldn't be making suggestions.

I mean you must be trolling, right? There's no way any sane person would make the argument you just made.

This is such a terrible argument you're making.

It's like saying you can never suggest nor critique anything unless you yourself can and want to do better.

Your favorite professional sports team just mess up? No complaining unless you have your own professional team.

Your country can't get anything done? Why aren't you running for office then? If you aren't, you shouldn't be making suggestions.

I mean you must be trolling, right? There's no way any sane person would make the argument you just made.

No, what you are saying is they are doing business wrong, but by every indication, they are doing it right. There is a reason why they cannot produce enough products to keep them in stock everywhere. That's because the demand for their products are so high that people buy them as soon as they are in stock.

You're suggesting you know how to do it better by selling card packs but I seriously doubt your formula (to sell card packs) would do better.

I'd like to think after 3 years, we wouldn't have to rehash this dumb idea, but people just keep bringing it up.

So none of you guys against separate upgrade card packs would ever consider running multiple tie advanced each with advanced targeting computers (or multiple ships with engine upgrades? Or any other rebel equivalents?) AND are perfectly happy to buy multiple raiders (or Falcons or whatever) in order to run such a list...?

Having spent a pretty penny on xwing already-I have at least one of every released ship (and happy to continue to do so-I love the game and am happy to support both FFG and my local FLGS) I'm still in favour of separately sold cards where required to allow me to field multiple ships with the same upgrade...

Is there honestly a miniatures game in existence that you can get into for £20?

People need to step away from their computers for a minute and take a look in the mirror. This forum really isn't the place for trading ridiculous conclusion.

Is selling individual cards possible? Of course. FFG sells cards all of the time.

Would selling individual cards help or hurt their income? Who knows? A lot of people would be more willing to spend $5 as opposed to $75+ to trounce their friends with a C3P0 card, but whether the quantity of purchases would offset the lower price is really just a guess.

The OP really shouldn't ask what FFG 'should' do (at least not to this crowd), but what we want FFG to do. From a customer's perspective, the answer is pretty obvious. A larger variety of products means better access to what we want, so separate cards are great. Whether that makes business sense is up to FFG. Seeing as how they don't sell separate cards, we can assume that it arrived at the conclusion that either it would be less profitable or the reward doesn't justify the risk.

FFG selling card with ships is not anti-poor or directed to hurt anyone. That is crazy. It is just the safest, easiest, or most profitable way to do it in the eyes of FFG's management.

Name calling didn't cheer you up?

For the record... Another person can't make you feel anything.

Wow. First of all, relax. Second, have you ever been punched? Did you return the blow with an icy stare and state that no one could make you feel pain?I guess I should assume that you meant only emotions, but if that is the case, I suggest that you present your evidence for that revelation and flip the entire field of psychology on its head. Think of all of the people with emotional problems that you could heal instantly just by sharing that wisdom!

this is hands down the most affordable mini wargame I have ever played or even seen...

The you've never played Star Wars Miniatures, D&d miniatures, or battle tech. This game isn't the most expensive but it's not the cheapest, either.

this is hands down the most affordable mini wargame I have ever played or even seen...

The you've never played Star Wars Miniatures, D&d miniatures, or battle tech. This game isn't the most expensive but it's not the cheapest, either.

The problem I think, is you are assuming they are going after the same market. The CMG market is practically dead, only surviving on the undead corpse that is Wizkids. They are going after a bit more of a high end market. The Gamesworkshop crowd. They aren't, and to compare this game to a CMG is sort of a mistake. They could not make the quality of miniatures that they do if they went for a cheaper market.

You constantly bring up that you can subsidize your collection with rarity and things to chase. That completely misses the point of FFG's business model. There is no chase, and even if you do chase some of the rare things, it doesn't change game. If you want something, you can buy it or the package that contains it. Yes, this does lead towards some buying stuff they don't want. I will never deny that FFG is a business, looking to get our money. I know who my preferred dealer is.

This game is a success beyond their wildest dreams. They vastly underestimated those that would be interested in a game of this price point. Just because you wish that it would be easier for others to afford it does not make FFG's decision to target a different market wrong.

this is hands down the most affordable mini wargame I have ever played or even seen...

The you've never played Star Wars Miniatures, D&d miniatures, or battle tech. This game isn't the most expensive but it's not the cheapest, either.

While you can purchase a pack containing 5-6 miniatures for a collectible miniature game for the price of a small ship expansion, whether you can actually play the game with that random assortment is another thing. And even then you may not be playing what you want.

To actually play those style of games either cherry picking what you actually want to play or having enough of a collection to have a decent variety of options you are going to end up spending more then you will to do the same for X-wing. People continually suggest that you need near everything to play X-wing competitively, if you apply that to a collectible miniatures game you will end up easily doubling your yearly expense on X-wing. I've player SWM, I still dabble in Heroclix. Just dabbling in Heroclix costs me more then having every ship for X-wing.

It's like arguing that MTG is cheap to play because packs are a few dollars.

I get the feeling your gaming group wastes a lot of thier gaming budget getting into cheap games but never really playing them.

People continually suggest that you need near everything to play X-wing competitively,

Which is of course easily dismissed. .

The world champion used upgrades and ships from 1 large base, 4 small base, core and transport.

The runner up used upgrades and ships from 2 large base, 3 small base and core.

Number 4 had a TIE swarm so he was probably the one who spent the least.

With a little advanced shopping skills you could end up 100 dollars out of pocket to get those lists, the only thing stopping you from being World Champion being skill.

The only way I could see this work is if a new tournament format was added: draft. You have to field the random squad you drafted. They tried that with some of the LCGs but I don't know if it was successful.

Rapture nailed it. There is really no way any of us can know how this would change Fantasy Flight's bottom line.

The Raider comes with TIE advanced titles. TIE Defender comes with Predator. Cards are included with ships.

Because of this,

1) There are some people who will see this, and buy an extra ship to get the card.

2) There are some people who will see this, and not buy the ship at all.

3) There are probably some people who hear about this sort of thing, and decide they don't want to play the game at all.

The trick is how many people there are in each group. Obviously there are not enough in #3 to make X-Wing unpopular. How many people are in #1? How many in group #2? Do they make enough from #1 to overcome losses from #2 (and #3)? I don't know. And neither do you.

The interesting question here is, what happens if you add a card pack of some kind?

1) Some people will buy an extra ship to get the card.

1.5) Some people will not buy an extra ship, but will buy a card pack.

2) Some people will not buy anything.

It's interesting because some people who were in #1 or #2 will shift groups to #1.5. Obviously sliding down from 1 represents a loss in profit (probably, although it depends on the relative margins of each product). But of course, selling a card pack to someone who would otherwise buy nothing is a Good Thing. Would you sell enough of those cards packs to make up for selling fewer ships? I don't know. And neither do you.

I feel like there ought to be some way for them to make it work, though. Maybe it's making individual single cards available from the POD shop on the website for $2-3 each. Maybe it's collecting all the cards into "Wave # Collections" that sell for $10-15. I don't know. All I know is that, as a customer, it would be nice to have more choices. I don't see what's wrong with that.

- H8

That would be nice. But what would REALLY be nice is if they included MORE THAN 1 SHIP IN EXPANSIONS. I think 2 TIE Phantoms, X-Wings, Interceptors, etc, per expansion pack, would be great (large ships/specialty expansions are exempt, of course)! Recently, I bought 2 Phantoms and 2 E-Wings, separately, at $15 each, but I don't need two Coran Horns or Whisper/Echo pilots, or duplicate cards. Sadly, the only way to get duplicate ships is by purchasing the individual expansions. I'd even be ok if they boosted the price $4-$5 for the extra model. Like most gamers, I'm on a limited budget and I'd like to get the most for my $$$...not wasting it. Who agrees?

I for one still would like to see the upgrades released in both the ships and as packs that could be bought. I don't see it happening, but it would be nice. I would also like to see pegs released in packs for purchase.

It would be nice if they put the upgrades on print on demand if they didn't want to release them separate from the ships.

Mainly, I would just like the **** card sleeves to be in stock. I am always short every release. I have been to several FLGS with no sleeves to be found.

You can buy Attack Wing pegs and posts in different colors.

Minus all the crazy stuff going on in here^^^^^

FFG has a hard enough time keeping up with demand with the ships........... Sure it would save you some cash but in the end if you really want the cards bad enough you'll buy the ship....