Honestly, where turrets are involved there's no question about ettiquete

I'm not saying this because I don't like turrets (and I don't like turrets), but because it can get to a point in the game where it is simply statistically unlikely that you will pull ahead (since turrets always have a shot and cannot be dodged in any way shape or form). The process can be expedited with some spikey rolls and quickly descend into a no-win scenario because there is very little way to out-play turrets outside of manipulating probability with blocks and ranges. Imo, there's no problem conceding then since you're basically wasting your time.

Corran's similar, to an extent, in that it's nearly impossible to out-roll all his modifiers + R2-D2 (which I know from experience actually outlasts decimators ), but at least he can be predicted and dodged. Him and Dash though...yeah I wouldn't blame you.

I am not quick to say this, but in your case i'll make an exception:

"Want some cheese with your whine?"

You don't like turrets, you don't like Corran... Yeah well then let's just play Phantom on Phantom every game and see who wins initiative. Then basically you know who is gonna win and gaming itself is not necessary any longer...

Also let me add: Yes, you can get into no-win situations against turret lists. But if you encounter Phantoms and they luckshot your mandatory Phantom meta, it's just the same thing! You lose no matter what!

I never said I didn't like Corran (hell, I love the E-wing because it can actually out-last turreted ships by itself), only that his defensive capabilities make him incredibly difficult to take out if you suddenly lose a sizable number of your force. He is nowhere near as extreme as turrets, however, since PTL + R2-D2 limit his maneuverability considerably which forces him to make decisions when it comes to prioritizing offense or defense. A wounded Corran is tough to chew, but he'll have to take risks a turret would never have to consider in order to maintain his durability, which you can then exploit to remove his red dice completely from the equation. In these cases, you still have a hope of winning.

Speaking of Phantoms, they are also much more easily handled. Dice spikes from 4-dice shots certainly hurt, but non-Echo Phantoms can be outmanuevered, their de-cloaks can be blocked/limited by obstacles, and their arcs can be dodged (they'll almost never be able to shoot at ships that maneuver behind them because k-turns are basically suicidal). Punching through 4-dice + tokens is very difficult if you're only left with 2-dice ships, but in terms of raw defense I've found it to be quite a bit more manageable than the E-wing's regenerating shields.

Really, the game's never over till it's over if you're fighting against arced ships. Turreted ships, by the simple fact that they always have a shot short of landing on obstructions, can get to the point where they simply out-stat you and at that point you might as well play the lottery.

Fickle, the point about flying past Phantoms, that's not true. You need to really fly past them by a lot for that, since they can barrel roll with the decloak to one side, do a 1 hard turn, and if it still can't shoot, just barrel roll again towards the ship he is trying to shoot at.

It is right tho, that you can mess with them, and they don't really like that possibility, but it can be handled.

People have mentioned it several times, but I don't see where anybody's answered them: when you measure to TL if it's in range you have to take it. That is how you were playing I, right?

when you measure to TL if it's in range you have to take it.

Once again this faulty info needs to be corrected.

You do not need to take a TL if the target is in range if you're playing by the standard rules. The FAQ entry mentioned above is for the competitive rule set not the standard rules.

You can in fact measure to every ship on the table if you so wish if you have the TL action, and never be forced to take it per the standard rules

Most people play by the competitive rules, and if that's what you're doing then yes, you have to take the TL if the target is valid. But not everyone plays by the competitive rules, and it shouldn't be assumed they are.

My other thought on what i have read is as a new player, is this game so out of balance that loosing one ship means that the game is not worth playing after the first casualty?

If you are in a spot where losing one ship means your whole list falls apart, you're playing a bad list. So no it's not that far out of balance.

Either the game is balanced, and everyone who talks about turrets as having an overpowering solution to the game are just wrong, and options like "Fat Han" or Dash with Corran Horn are perfectly balanced

It's not that simple. Turrets are not that overpowered by themselves, because you pay a premium for having them. However it is true that the Fat Han type lists, is a bit out of balance because of all the stuff you can stack on a single YT-1300.

Yeah, fair point. Dunno why, but I assume people playing on Vassel are playing using competitive rules. Maybe because setting Vassel up is such a hassle I assume only seriously hardcore players will bother!

I don't know, I don't play on Vassel, other then solo stuff to test out lists when I don't want to set up my ships. I'm guessing the TL bubble was set up because that is how it was used as an example in the rule book.

So a couple of thoughts are screaming at me, and as a new player, that has played less than 50 games or so, i have a few questions:

Measuring range: once he declares the target lock, don't you then measure range, and if you are in range, performs the action, and if you aren't move on? It seems like measuring target lock range to multiple targets if the first is out of range is getting information in the game that you shouldn't have. I understand people are naturally going to try to get as much information and play the hardest they can to win, I would expect no less, but if you declare a target, and measure, and they are in range, the action should go off, with no more measuring allowed. If the game isn't built that way, then its probably an oversight. You can put "fly casually" in the rule book and say "don't be a ****** bag" as much as you want, but in the end, only a rule will change a "spike's" play habits.

My other thought on what i have read is as a new player, is this game so out of balance that loosing one ship means that the game is not worth playing after the first casualty? I ask this because in the games i have played, It feels like the rebels are way stronger than the empire, but i know that is the learning curve i am going through as i learn to fly better with more vulnerable ships. Even then, the YT-1300 and YT-2400 ships feel like they are SO good, and it feels like the rebels have all the "good" upgrades outside of Vader and Mara Jade, so now I'm confused.

Either the game is balanced, and everyone who talks about turrets as having an overpowering solution to the game are just wrong, and options like "Fat Han" or Dash with Corran Horn are perfectly balanced, or my thought process of the empire being a little underpowered with the exception of the phantom (which has to be there, otherwise the empire just kind of dissolves under the weight of better ships/upgrades/astromechs/exclusive characters) and it really is as bad as it feels.

I have been reading, as a newer player that the game FEELS horribly unbalanced when starting as an Empire player, because rebel ships are more durable, and Empire ships are not, and add to that the fact that shields are just 100% better than hull with absolutely no drawback i can find, and rebel ships are often point for point just better than then empire counterparts and i see why people like me feel that way. On the other hand, i have also read that the game is actually VERY well balanced in the long run, and i would prefer to believe this.

I would rather believe that i am loosing to Corran Horn/YT-2400 or XXBB or 1300/1300 or Wedge, Wes, Biggs or BBBB or any of these other popular builds because i am just bad at the game and learning how to fly, more so than the game is just unbalanced. Because if the game is so unbalanced that loosing a Tie Interceptor in the early game means defeat, then i have wasted the 200.00 getting into the game.

The game itself is balanced, but not all squads are going to be, also the Empire has a much steeper learning curve and is less forgiving than the Rebellion. One of the issues right now are the Fat Han and Phantom lists that are really tough to beat, but there's a bunch of solid counters to those builds coming out in Wave 6. There are some interviews with the developers where they mention that things will even out once Scum & Villiany hit the table, and looking at what that faction brings you can see pilots like Torkil Mux, and upgrades like Autothrusters and some of the Illicit Upgrades will address the elements that are dominating the current game.

As far as being a new player goes, try using both factions. Maybe the Empire isnt right for you, it's strengths are swarms, phantoms, and shuttles, all of which require a good deal of planning and finesse to use effectively. This isn't a balance issue, it's a playstyle difference designed into the game.

It's not unbalanced from a technical stand-point. Going point-for-point for the amount of red they have, turreted ships are woefully in-efficient and should lose in a straight joust against an equivalent points of say B-wings.

My problem with turreted ships is one of play-style, because all it takes is a few spikey rolls to unhinge the balance of power and catapult the turreted ship into nigh-unkillable status. They are uniquely capable of exploiting spikes because of garanteed defenses, chunky stats, large ship mobility, and (most of all) guaranteed and unavoidable shots (excluding bumping, in which case you can't shoot either, or landing on asteroids) that keep the dice coming.

I had a game last night that came down to Airen Cracken (VI) and Jakes (PTL, VI, Rockets) versus super Boba (lone wolf, gunner, EU) and I was able to overcome the massive stat/dice difference because I've flown the hell out of the firespray and can maneuver into its blindspots to avoid getting annihilated in a straight dice-off. Against a turreted ship, I would have had no recourse but to pray for incredibly unlikely rolls in my favor, because it is literally impossible to dodge them without forfeiting a shot.

So, if a game ever gets to a point where it's just your dice (not overwhelming stacked in your favor) versus the many guarantees of a turret, imo there's no point in wasting time unless you're in a competitive setting and want to improve your margin of loss.

I would rather believe that i am loosing to Corran Horn/YT-2400 or XXBB or 1300/1300 or Wedge, Wes, Biggs or BBBB or any of these other popular builds because i am just bad at the game and learning how to fly, more so than the game is just unbalanced. Because if the game is so unbalanced that loosing a Tie Interceptor in the early game means defeat, then i have wasted the 200.00 getting into the game.

My advice is to /never/ concede. Especially after losing one ship. It can be demoralizing to lose a heavy hitter right out of the gate, but by no means is it the end. Keep fighting and you can be aroused at how things go. I lost half my fleet once in the opening round and managed to pull out a victory.

Things can be harder against some lists, but the only way to lose for certain is to give up. Like the guy above that would forfeit playing x-wings vs a Phantom. All you need is one torpedo to hit. One bad maneuver on the phantom's part and it could be over.

Nothing is certain until the last ship dies.

I've seen a solo Interceptor wipe out 3 shiny, untouched X-wings in one game, by superior flying and lucky dice rolls. Anything is possible

The rules are simple:

During activation phase you must declare a TL action and then measure to see if it is a legal action. If it is, you MUST finish the action. If not, you may declare another action.

During combat phase a ship may measure any and all possible targets before selecting one to attack.

As far as quitting after the opening volley.... jerk move man. Even if you think you can't win, play on. You will learn the strengths and weaknesses of your list and the individual ships in your squad this way. You'll gain the same knowledge about your opponents list and ships as well.

If I am understanding this right, the OP's opponent is doing TL declarations against things that he is outside range 3 of, thereby making the TL invalid and not spending the action. However, using Vassal's bubble tool to check TL range lets him simultaneously check range to all the ships that ARE in firing range. Thus, the opponent is getting to measure without even taking an action. Given that the opponent isn't doing range checks on Soontir directly and is instead going after other ships, I think it is safe to say that they were playing by competitive rules.

As for giving up early, I think there is a good way to do it: one player, usually the losing player, asks the opponent if they want to call it and if the opponent accepts, then all is good. My practice partner and I often do this, usually to get more games in. However, just flat out leaving is usually a faux pas .

HOWEVER, in this situation where the opponent is taking unsportsmanlike advantage of the Vassal platform's idiosyncrasies, if not flat out cheating, leaving immediately is acceptable.

I don't know, I don't play on Vassel, other then solo stuff to test out lists when I don't want to set up my ships. I'm guessing the TL bubble was set up because that is how it was used as an example in the rule book.

Just on this- how many people ever play by the "standard" rules rather than the "competitive" ones? I've never seen anyone play without using the competitive rules, casual game or not.

- how many people ever play by the "standard" rules rather than the "competitive" ones?

Doesn't matter. When people quote the rules they need to either quote the rules, or specify that they are quoting a subset of the rules.

I am not saying that they should remove it. I am saying that you should use the right measurement tool for each circumstance. Checking a TL is done with a 30cm ruler straight base to base, not using a bubble.

If it's an assault missile, a bubble is great of course, because you can already (i presume) get a 10 cm radius ruler, so you don't get to measure more than you should, but it would still be wrong for strict measurement purposes.

And my point was that most people don't abuse it, so there's really no reason to change the standard except for cases where people do, since it would slow down the game otherwise.

The easiest way to solve this is to ask your opponent to declare a targeted ship before they activate the TL range bubble. The same goes for Barrel Roll and Decloak actions.

http://teamcovenant.com/sablegryphon/2014/11/22/a-game-of-morale/