So just did a game on vassal where I resigned after one round of shooting, which I've done on rare occasion but not in quite awhile, but was warranted here I think.

I was running Soontir, Sigma, and 3 academies vs Dash and Corran.

First round of movement, my opponent goes aggressive with Dash doing a boost and barrel roll to get close to soontir. I was conservative with soontir but still ended up in range of dash, but after a barrel roll and boost myself got into Dash's donut. Corran (PS10) then got into range 2 and promptly rolled 3 hits/crits which I evaded thanks to my free focus. My range 1 shot only did 1 damage to Dash, then Corran on the double tap got a hit and crit, I got no evades, and the crit was minor explosion and I rolled a hit. I resigned at that point as my other ships had pretty much no chance against dash and corran at basically full health.

Now onto the etiquette question.

Several times when moving Dash and Corran, my opponent would do random target lock checks, with no real intention of using them just to see the range from ships. The most blatant being when corran was clearly in range of soontir, and miles away from my academies, yet he did a target lock check on the academy to see what range soontir was from corran. I guess it's technically legal, though due to the way vassal works, is a form of cheating I'd think.

Honestly, where turrets are involved there's no question about ettiquete

I'm not saying this because I don't like turrets (and I don't like turrets), but because it can get to a point in the game where it is simply statistically unlikely that you will pull ahead (since turrets always have a shot and cannot be dodged in any way shape or form). The process can be expedited with some spikey rolls and quickly descend into a no-win scenario because there is very little way to out-play turrets outside of manipulating probability with blocks and ranges. Imo, there's no problem conceding then since you're basically wasting your time.

Corran's similar, to an extent, in that it's nearly impossible to out-roll all his modifiers + R2-D2 (which I know from experience actually outlasts decimators ), but at least he can be predicted and dodged. Him and Dash though...yeah I wouldn't blame you.

Technically, anyone intentionally TL checking against ships he knows he isn't going to TL is legal, though violates the obligatory "don't be a D-bag" clause.

Technically, anyone intentionally TL checking against ships he knows he isn't going to TL is legal, though violates the obligatory "don't be a D-bag" clause.

Oh idk, checking range never struck me as a bad thing. After all, you should be privy to the same info when he measures

So just did a game on vassal where I resigned after one round of shooting, which I've done on rare occasion but not in quite awhile, but was warranted here I think.

I was running Soontir, Sigma, and 3 academies vs Dash and Corran.

First round of movement, my opponent goes aggressive with Dash doing a boost and barrel roll to get close to soontir. I was conservative with soontir but still ended up in range of dash, but after a barrel roll and boost myself got into Dash's donut. Corran (PS10) then got into range 2 and promptly rolled 3 hits/crits which I evaded thanks to my free focus. My range 1 shot only did 1 damage to Dash, then Corran on the double tap got a hit and crit, I got no evades, and the crit was minor explosion and I rolled a hit. I resigned at that point as my other ships had pretty much no chance against dash and corran at basically full health.

Now onto the etiquette question.

Several times when moving Dash and Corran, my opponent would do random target lock checks, with no real intention of using them just to see the range from ships. The most blatant being when corran was clearly in range of soontir, and miles away from my academies, yet he did a target lock check on the academy to see what range soontir was from corran. I guess it's technically legal, though due to the way vassal works, is a form of cheating I'd think.

It's cheating in tournaments, too.

If a ship is blatantly within Range 1-2, and he's using a TL to "check" range, then he's abusing the rules. I wouldn't call it cheating because it's not technically wrong, but I'd seriously question his tact and probably wouldn't willingly play him again.

They way I've played it, and as far as I recall it's in the rules, you declare the ship you're attempting to TL, then you measure, and if it's within range you must perform the action.

There is that vassal bug that makes your ship jump sometimes when you turn on either the firing arc or target lock overlays, and a common fix is to activate both. Was you opponent possibly doing that?

You gave up after losing one ship? It's not like you were fighting against Phantoms... but yeah, I get it. Alas the game has become so unbalanced, due to poor forethought by the designers, that yes, often there's little point even playing against certain match ups.

In my opinion of course.

If I was trying out 4 Rookies with torpedoes and someone slapped down Echo and mini swarm, I'd give up to. You can't "learn how to fly against" or "learn how to predict" the movement of a ship that moves after you do and then changes it's position depending on how the board looks.. regardless of what the so called 'internet experts' bleat out in defence of what the game has become.

On the flip side though, would you expect your opponent to continue playing if you were clearly trouncing him with a boosting and barrel rolling Soontir v/s his lower skilled and less manoeuvrable ships?

I'm new to X Wing (haven't even played my first game yet. All I've done is read the rules numerous times to make sure I'm up to speed on the basics, and then haunt these forums for all the information I can get.

This thread has confused me though.
According to the rules, you're allowed to measure before you choose a target to target lock or attack, so I don't really understand where this cheating or lack of etiquette is happening? (sorry for the stupid question, but I'd rather learn everything I can)

I'm new to X Wing (haven't even played my first game yet. All I've done is read the rules numerous times to make sure I'm up to speed on the basics, and then haunt these forums for all the information I can get.

This thread has confused me though.

According to the rules, you're allowed to measure before you choose a target to target lock or attack, so I don't really understand where this cheating or lack of etiquette is happening? (sorry for the stupid question, but I'd rather learn everything I can)

So basically in this conundrum, the problem with measuring range even when it's obvious that they are right next to you is that if I have other ships to activate this turn, I can gain a better bearing on where their ranges actually are, thus allowing say my interceptor which can't get that info thanks to his lack of the action in his bar, to make a better judgement with his boost barrel roll. Before it was really seen as a **** move (at least in our area) I would put a single targeting computer on an all interceptor list so that I could have that range finder.

And there are a few schools of thought on it

1. It's premeasuring, pure and simple

2. It makes sense that since your ship has that technology to be able to get a measurement off of it, that would be one of it's functions. Interesting thought

3. It is part of the resolution of the action to measure, what ever info comes from that is public as we can all see it, so the advantage is mutual. Fair point

But then it get's into weird questions of exactly where is that line? I was in a tourney match with my Dash and opponent has Four Royal Guards w/PTL, flying strangely in block formation. Turn two(?) he advances 3-bank (or something) to center from corner, dash does same from other corner. Both are angled toward middle but range is in question for me, it looks like I might have one in range and the rest out. I do want to target lock it. So I declare the attempt and have to measure and just so barely get his corner. But in the process I see he has actually another squint in range. The ruler was right next to both, I can't not see that fact once it's revealed. But if I perform a PTL>boost I know I can dodge the arc of the unlocked squint, and still get my shot at the locked one. So did I cheat?

@OP I've seen games resigned after a single ship was lost since I got in to the game back at wave two or three. There are just those times when the writing is on the wall man. Happens. The game is still balanced, but a bad list matchup or a antithetical build can just wreck you. Or in your case the tool you needed to win just got dusted. I won an epic game after my Dash killed a Interceptor in each of the first three turns of an Epic match. One of those was a Soontir with a hull and a shield upgrade. He didn't think they had enough firepower left to pull the win after that with the whole rebel team only down like two shields and in great position. Couldn't blame him. And that FYI is another weird place to ask about measuring range.

Is the problem that your opponent was using the arc tool to check range? Is there not a direct straight line measuring tool that would allow him/her to check to range against the ties without it obviously telling him/her the range to any other ships, which is pretty much what you can do in the table top game with the range ruler.

Ben

Is the problem that your opponent was using the arc tool to check range? Is there not a direct straight line measuring tool that would allow him/her to check to range against the ties without it obviously telling him/her the range to any other ships, which is pretty much what you can do in the table top game with the range ruler.

Ben

Is the problem that your opponent was using the arc tool to check range? Is there not a direct straight line measuring tool that would allow him/her to check to range against the ties without it obviously telling him/her the range to any other ships, which is pretty much what you can do in the table top game with the range ruler.

Ben

There is a line tool to measure with, but it's generally used only for checking if a shot is obstructed by an obstacle.

but is this not a way to resolve the issue that the OP is reporting? It seems to me that the OP is reporting how you can abuse the tools within vassal to do something that you wouldn't be able to do in the tabletop. Surely the line ruler tool offers no more information that you could get from using the range ruler on the tabletop. I don't think it would be unreasonable to request that your opponent uses this tool to check for target locks instead of the arc tool if it gives them an unfair advantage.

But then I don't use vassal, so what to o know.

Honestly, where turrets are involved there's no question about ettiquete

I'm not saying this because I don't like turrets (and I don't like turrets), but because it can get to a point in the game where it is simply statistically unlikely that you will pull ahead (since turrets always have a shot and cannot be dodged in any way shape or form). The process can be expedited with some spikey rolls and quickly descend into a no-win scenario because there is very little way to out-play turrets outside of manipulating probability with blocks and ranges. Imo, there's no problem conceding then since you're basically wasting your time.

Corran's similar, to an extent, in that it's nearly impossible to out-roll all his modifiers + R2-D2 (which I know from experience actually outlasts decimators ), but at least he can be predicted and dodged. Him and Dash though...yeah I wouldn't blame you.

"Want some cheese with your whine?"

You don't like turrets, you don't like Corran... Yeah well then let's just play Phantom on Phantom every game and see who wins initiative. Then basically you know who is gonna win and gaming itself is not necessary any longer...

Also let me add: Yes, you can get into no-win situations against turret lists. But if you encounter Phantoms and they luckshot your mandatory Phantom meta, it's just the same thing! You lose no matter what!

There's been discussions on this before though nothing conclusive, if you google x-wing when may i neasure you should get results from here, bgg, team covenant and other places. Buhallin should be able to tell you more about those discussions.

From the FAQ, page 9

When acquiring a target lock, a player must first declare the intended target. Then, he measures range to the declared target to see if the target is within legal range. If the target is in range, the ship performing the action must acquire a target lock on the target. If the target is not in range, the player may declare a different target, or he may declare a different action.

I don't think you should be able to perform target lock range checks at random whenever you choose, because what he possibly was doing was checking to see if he could boost or barrel roll into Range 1, which on Corran with his double tap and FCS kight be better than a TL at range 2.

He could also have been checking firing arcs.

So a couple of thoughts are screaming at me, and as a new player, that has played less than 50 games or so, i have a few questions:

Measuring range: once he declares the target lock, don't you then measure range, and if you are in range, performs the action, and if you aren't move on? It seems like measuring target lock range to multiple targets if the first is out of range is getting information in the game that you shouldn't have. I understand people are naturally going to try to get as much information and play the hardest they can to win, I would expect no less, but if you declare a target, and measure, and they are in range, the action should go off, with no more measuring allowed. If the game isn't built that way, then its probably an oversight. You can put "fly casually" in the rule book and say "don't be a ****** bag" as much as you want, but in the end, only a rule will change a "spike's" play habits.

My other thought on what i have read is as a new player, is this game so out of balance that loosing one ship means that the game is not worth playing after the first casualty? I ask this because in the games i have played, It feels like the rebels are way stronger than the empire, but i know that is the learning curve i am going through as i learn to fly better with more vulnerable ships. Even then, the YT-1300 and YT-2400 ships feel like they are SO good, and it feels like the rebels have all the "good" upgrades outside of Vader and Mara Jade, so now I'm confused.

Either the game is balanced, and everyone who talks about turrets as having an overpowering solution to the game are just wrong, and options like "Fat Han" or Dash with Corran Horn are perfectly balanced, or my thought process of the empire being a little underpowered with the exception of the phantom (which has to be there, otherwise the empire just kind of dissolves under the weight of better ships/upgrades/astromechs/exclusive characters) and it really is as bad as it feels.

I have been reading, as a newer player that the game FEELS horribly unbalanced when starting as an Empire player, because rebel ships are more durable, and Empire ships are not, and add to that the fact that shields are just 100% better than hull with absolutely no drawback i can find, and rebel ships are often point for point just better than then empire counterparts and i see why people like me feel that way. On the other hand, i have also read that the game is actually VERY well balanced in the long run, and i would prefer to believe this.

I would rather believe that i am loosing to Corran Horn/YT-2400 or XXBB or 1300/1300 or Wedge, Wes, Biggs or BBBB or any of these other popular builds because i am just bad at the game and learning how to fly, more so than the game is just unbalanced. Because if the game is so unbalanced that loosing a Tie Interceptor in the early game means defeat, then i have wasted the 200.00 getting into the game.

The rules are simple:

During activation phase you must declare a TL action and then measure to see if it is a legal action. If it is, you MUST finish the action. If not, you may declare another action.

During combat phase a ship may measure any and all possible targets before selecting one to attack.

As far as quitting after the opening volley.... jerk move man. Even if you think you can't win, play on. You will learn the strengths and weaknesses of your list and the individual ships in your squad this way. You'll gain the same knowledge about your opponents list and ships as well.

I am guessing Vassal doesn't use a ruler to check that stuff, right ? Just a bubble (at least that's how it worked on the 40k).

To be honest, you shouldn't had boosted + barrel rolled into the donut with Corran around, specially if Dash used all his actions for movement purposes so he didn't have a way to modify his dice roll. You really didn't need to. He baited you hard, and you fel for it (pun intended).

Technically, anyone intentionally TL checking against ships he knows he isn't going to TL is legal, though violates the obligatory "don't be a D-bag" clause.

The problem is entirely with vassal. You measure from your ship and in straight direction, so while you get a better aproximation, you, by any mean, should get to get a real measure out of it, except, if the other ship is right behind the ship you really want to shoot at.

For me, it is just a tool, and i like when my opponent's use it aswell.

I might have kept playing, but the way he was skirting the rules didn't really give me an incentive to. It may be legal as I said, but it felt pretty dirty since he did it several times.

And for those not familiar with how vassal works, normally when you do a target lock check, a big colored bubble goes around your ship showing the different ranges. It's different than a real game where you have a stick to measure one direction. You CAN use a measuring tool on vassal for a similar result, but no one really does that except to check for obstructions in the line of sight.

So with this giant colored bubble, he could easily see who was in range or not in all directions, as well as how far he would need to boost/barrel roll to get in the position he wanted to. Also allowed him to decided how to choose other actions as well.

I would rather believe that i am loosing to Corran Horn/YT-2400 or XXBB or 1300/1300 or Wedge, Wes, Biggs or BBBB or any of these other popular builds because i am just bad at the game and learning how to fly, more so than the game is just unbalanced. Because if the game is so unbalanced that loosing a Tie Interceptor in the early game means defeat, then i have wasted the 200.00 getting into the game.

My advice is to /never/ concede. Especially after losing one ship. It can be demoralizing to lose a heavy hitter right out of the gate, but by no means is it the end. Keep fighting and you can be aroused at how things go. I lost half my fleet once in the opening round and managed to pull out a victory.

Things can be harder against some lists, but the only way to lose for certain is to give up. Like the guy above that would forfeit playing x-wings vs a Phantom. All you need is one torpedo to hit. One bad maneuver on the phantom's part and it could be over.

Nothing is certain until the last ship dies.

Yeah the bubble. It works like the 40k then as i guessed. Don't you have a measure option which is like a line ? People should just use that one all the time to be honest, bubbles don't really have a place on Xwing as measurement purposes.

Even if you don't stretch as much as he did to get distances, having a bubble for measurement is a powerful tool in Xwing that shouldn't be used.

Edit - I don't play on Vassal, but i would send feedback to the mod makers to encourage the use of a ruler capped at 30cm / 12" to measure.

Why won't FFG/Disney just make a video game version of this game yet!??!?

Yeah the bubble. It works like the 40k then as i guessed. Don't you have a measure option which is like a line ? People should just use that one all the time to be honest, bubbles don't really have a place on Xwing as measurement purposes.

Even if you don't stretch as much as he did to get distances, having a bubble for measurement is a powerful tool in Xwing that shouldn't be used.

Edit - I don't play on Vassal, but i would send feedback to the mod makers to encourage the use of a ruler capped at 30cm / 12" to measure.

The bubble is great for a lot of things, like AOE abilities and checking targets when it's time to shoot (so many turrets...). It's a tool that speeds up a game that is a bit slower on Vassal than in real life. Most people use it for what it is for, and it would be a mistake to take it out because of this.

In the OPs case, I would have asked this particular player to use ruler/line if he was using the bubble to cheat.

I am not saying that they should remove it. I am saying that you should use the right measurement tool for each circumstance. Checking a TL is done with a 30cm ruler straight base to base, not using a bubble.

If it's an assault missile, a bubble is great of course, because you can already (i presume) get a 10 cm radius ruler, so you don't get to measure more than you should, but it would still be wrong for strict measurement purposes.