Is this whinefest still going on? I go away for a week and I would've thought it died out by now.

Jeez, FFG packages in some good cards with the Epic play to ensure that you buy more of their stuff. Buy it online and you save almost 50%. Just deal with it people.

We don't have the data. That does not mean nobody buys epic ships. It does not mean that a ton of people buy epic ships. The fact that they have to package good cards in epic ships is a good reason to believe that a ton of people don't buy epic ships. The fact that people that are already selling upgrade cards cannot reasonably assume they will earn a return on a Tantive after making 2/3 of it's cost back on one single upgrade card is a good reason to believe that a ton of people don't buy epic ships.

Except we don't have data on what an Epic ship would sell like if it didn't have cards that were useful in the standard game. All the Epic ships have cards useful in standard game. What we do know, is that the Epic ships are selling well. They went back in for a reprint fairly quickly, quicker than the HWK. And quite frankly, I don't think FFG cares too much about whether or not people are buying them for Epic, display, or for merely part of the package.

A lot of people are ignoring the fact that there are a lot of people that play this game that don't play epic because they don't like it, not because they haven't tried it. And there are a lot of reasons to not like epic, games take longer, it requires more table space, it requires you to own lots of ships from a single faction or own expensive huge ships, it has almost no tournament support at both the premiere level and the LGS level, and/or it focuses too much on capital ships and not enough on dogfighting. It's just as legitimate for someone to not like Epic play as it is for someone to not like tournament or 100 point play.

The thing that makes this worse than the C3PO/Tantive issue for a lot of people is that

1. The TIE Advanced is one of most iconic imperial fighters after the TIE Fighter for casual fans that are not super deep into the EU(legends), because the TIE Advanced had a ton of screen time in the original film during the climactic battle.

2. The makers of the game have publically stated on camera that the TIE Advanced as it was released is inadequate for tournament play that they are not okay with that and want to see the Advanced do well competitively.

I've also seen posts about people are only complaining because they don't have enough $$ in their pocket to afford the Raider. It's not about the Raider being too expensive, it's about not being able to buy something we want without also having to fund something we don't like. Yes X-Wing does that a lot already, but there's a big difference between paying an extra $10 to get that $5 upgrade you need, vs paying an extra $70 to be able to use the ships that you already own.

In the end, I think exploitative packaging like this is going to win out, there are just too many players that have to have whatever the new thing is and don't care if they are getting a bad deal.

Honestly, FFG could put out the X-Wing fix that they have said is coming in a box with a 10 lb rock, tell us it's an asteroid model that they painstakingly crafted that you can use to smash your opponent's ships only in casual play if you're opponent is okay with it, charge $150, and and enough people would buy 2 of them to make it a success.

You mean about $52 or so extra? That's how much I paid for my CR-90 online.

In the end, I think exploitative packaging like this is going to win out, there are just too many players that have to have whatever the new thing is and don't care if they are getting a bad deal.

How is that a bad deal?

If you have no desire for the Raider as a playable ship or just a cool display piece I can see that. But for those of us who have to have all the stuff, we're getting exactly what we paid for.

The Tie Advanced upgrade and the Raider. This is far from a bad deal

May I present to you

It is my opinion that all fixes should be free! I'm just saying.

I will of course buy the Ship, I already have made AN AWESOME BUILD!!! But FFG knows that fans and gamers will purchase this ships as they knew the fans and gamers would purchase the transport. Players need the cards in these expansions to compete! By combining the Epic Ship with the other upgrade cards, FFG make sure that they sell these large ships. Welcome to Capitalism 101!

Personally, the Raider is a better deal to me than the Corvette. Threepio, Artoo, Leia, and Han are all good upgrades, but not necessary, imo. I would rather pay the extra 10 bucks for the Raider to get 4 new Advanced pilots, the necessary upgrades to upgrade all my Advances, and the cool new iconic crew we will be getting. And I get a cool new ship to display.

But it is all up to each individual person whether it is worth it or not.

Here's a crazy questions: How hard is it to find the Refit for the A-Wing and at what price?

With three of them in the RAces box you know a players going to be keeping at least one for the A-Wing in it and likely has an A-Wing expansion for one more. That could leave one Refit available IF people didn't have a second A-Wing expansion to utilize it.

With the Tantive IV you aren't going to see a big secondary market simply because who needs more than one of those ships especially when the usable upgrades are all unique. I'm thinking a better example of 100 point (X-Wing) upgrade cards in Epic packs would be the X-Wing stuff in the Rebel Transport ship; it's certainly the most comparable although its price point is lower.

It's not 99 bucks.

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/43103/s/ffgswx30/

32 dollars away from free shipping. Just make a big order.

If you like this game enough...it's not that big a deal. I'm poor with two kids and I'm getting one. Stop whining. Sell some plasma. Put 10 bucks a paycheck away. Do whatever you need to do. These threads are dumb.

It's not 99 bucks.

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/43103/s/ffgswx30/

32 dollars away from free shipping. Just make a big order.

If you like this game enough...it's not that big a deal. I'm poor with two kids and I'm getting one. Stop whining. Sell some plasma. Put 10 bucks a paycheck away. Do whatever you need to do. These threads are dumb.

i hear ya, a mortgage, two vehicles and a 3 year old in the suburbs aint cheap, and i can and am happily getting it done.

Wow, this thread's still going. At some point, I think you've just got to let it go.

If you like Raider and/or TIE Advanced, then get the Raider set. Otherwise, don't. Game's still playable even without the Raider set, though TIE Advanced won't be as good without the upgrades from there.

Like, e.g. I don't have the Rebel Transport (or the X-Wing from that) or the Tantive IV (or the C-3PO from that), but that hasn't stopped me from playing Rebels anyway.

Formatting issues here. I posted a full response later down the page but frankly if you think that we can't ever make any sort of educated assumption because FFG's accountant, owner, sales manager, and maybe a guy from the pizza company they call aren't sitting at your desk having a personal Q&A session then you could probably skip the whole thing since you know, everything is literally completely unknowable or whatever.

Well you're a little pistol aintcha?! I can see that you are new here so I will assume that your little comment about me wanting to "avoid discussion" by asking for relevant data was presented out of ignorance. I have been participating in the forefront of this discussion since it was kicked off and have engaged numerous posters here, some exceedingly aggressively. I am not "avoiding discussion" as you put it...I am asking you to provide solid proof that justifies your assumptions. Thus far you are unable to do so and want to attack my request like a child. A simple "No I dont have it but..." would suffice. If we are going to discuss this we should at least start from positions of mutual respect...I dont have the numbers either...but I can explain logically and through experience why I feel the way I do.

I will be quoting other individual quotes of yours as this post goes on...usually i think its a rather chicken shiznit way to debate people...but you brought up alot of points that I feel I should address and I want to make sure you know what arguments I am addressing and where. This is going to be one hell of a post...

Firstly, so you readily admit you dont have ANY data outside of your "gut feelings" or "what you have noticed" (which Ill admit runs counter to what I have seen so I guess the two cancel each other out?) Thats good to know...neither do I. But I do have corporate sales, marketing, and supply chain experience to back up my observations.

If your local B+N has so much stock on epics people are tripping over them...mayhap the manager ordered too much? I used to see it happen all the time when i worked in sales. But I dont know those sales numbers and havent seen any epics at my local B+N...but then I dont usually buy my ships there (the ones near me dont have much in the way of Xwing at all since the great half off sale of the spring.) My FLGSs have maybe 2x of the CR 90 out and maybe 3x Transports...enough to fill the shelf. And I do see them bought...they were out of transports for a while. I can ask more solid inventory numbers if you want...hell I could even ask for sales figures but I doubt they would give those to me.

You can make whatever assumption you want...but that is all it is...assumption. And it didnt appear to be very "educated" to me.

I dont have any solid sales data either...but I do have some rather extensive experience in retail sales. There are a myriad of reasons you overlooked with your assumption that "people dont want to play epic" and your example of "Well look at 3PO and the Tantive."

It is disingenuous to claim that you will be able to easily and affordably buy the cards online. At best, it's extremely optimistic in the face of previous epic ships telling you otherwise.

Define "affordable." I think $10 or so a card for people I have no personal connection to is a fair starting price given the cost of the ship it comes in. You may disagree and the market will bear that out through standard economic functions. You have other ways of utilizing these new rules...buying from the secondary market, proxying (all of a sudden a dirty word for some), or going in with someone from your gaming group or FLGS and paying for part of the ship to get the cards you need. Those are your options and 2 of them dont involve this secondary market you dont have any confidence in...I am sure if you look you will find someone willing to give you one or two copies of each card if you pay what they ask...if not, well then I would start looking at the other two options.

While we are on the subject of economic forces:

I think it's missing the bigger picture to assume that since there are 4 titles they will always be readily available for sale - they will hit a price point at which it is worth it to part out a raider or they won't. If they don't, there won't really be that many for sale. I think it's missing the bigger picture to assume that there will be a ton of raiders sold and all of those owners will turn to third-party outlets to offload their huge piles of TIE Advanced titles.

Correct...they will or they will not. I am inclined to think that they will...there are more than enough copies in there. You seem to disagree. I dont think there are too many out there who have 3 or more TIE adv with the reputation the ship has. Hell, I got mine from a friend who bought 2...and realized he wouldnt use the second one. FFG may be making a play to sell more TIE adv models along with more raiders. Should you argue that I probably wouldn't disagree....it would make sense. But that isnt the argument you made. I will probably sell at least one if not two copies of the TIE Adv upgrade...weather i turn to ebay to do it or not will depend on what my gaming groups needs are and if any of them need it first. (This is an option, I would think, you have as well.)

I think it's inclusive of the bigger picture to look at a strategy like that and conclude that epic ships do not sell well enough in their own right to warrant selling them in supplements that are 100% for epic play.

As stated before...this is an assumption. There is no data to show these ships would not have sold well without these extra cards and even if we did have this data I feel the main drag on Epic has been the lack of a non rebel ship. Playing with capital ships isn't as much fun if you dont have another capital ship to shoot at. Balance and fairness cant really be achieved if only one side gets the big guns. If you cant at least admit that is a distinct possibility then I dont know what to tell you other than "take your head out of the sand." Could it be what you claim? Without solid numbers to look at its possible...but my experience in corporate sales combined with current market conditions and responses I have seen in these very forums lead me to think your hypothesis isnt the case.

I think it's inclusive of the bigger picture to look at Armada and conclude that FFG thought it was more worthwhile selling a totally different game with Star Wars capital ships rather than to plan on indefinitely supporting Epic play for X-wing as a legitimate going concern. I think it's inclusive of the bigger picture to assume that they treat Epic supplements as expensive limited releases for the game they really sell (similar to an approach like 40k Apocalypse) but included cards for normal play because they understood that Epic play would not be a big enough draw in it's own right to warrant selling Epic-only packages.

Yet another assumption. My conclusion would be they took a look at the blowout success Xwing has been and have tried to replicate it. They stated time and again that Xwing's scale doesnt work well with ISDs, MonCal Crusiers, or even the Nebulon B. People here (and I would assume outside this forum through letter writing, focus groups, store surveys, and marketing events) have been clamoring to use ISDs and cap ships. Armada allows them to do that without killing Xwing off or taking it away from its solid dogfighting platform. Looking at it from the companies perspective this move was logical...and says absolutely nothing about the state of epic play in Xwing.

You and I have no real idea what the demand of the epic ships is. I would actually wager that the Raider could be used as proof that epic is viable profit-making enterprise...why else would you invest the time and money? These ships are expensive to develop, manufacture, test, and distribute. Gaming businesses dont usually support dying or dead game systems and products. The profit must be there or there would be no Raider. An Imperial epic is EXACTLY what this mode needed...I always thought it stupid that only one side had access to capital ships. We will know by next year who is correct here.

I think it's inclusive of the bigger picture to understand that the C3PO example is great because you see how Tantive boxes without 3PO in them are virtually worthless. You might draw your own conclusions about why they are worthless but I don't think the ''groups of people that want to play epic" and "groups of people that wanted to play epic but only if they also had an Imperial ship to play epic with so both sides could have totally awesome big ships" are going to converge in some tremendous explosion of X-Wing Epic play.

But it isnt the same...3PO and the TIE/x1s will be very different beasts. 3PO as, stated before, is unique...only one can be fielded per list and only one comes in a box. It also happens to come with a ship that you cannot legally field any more than 1 of anyway. There is literally no incentive to buy that second Tantive...for any reason. So your comparison of 3PO to the TIE/x1 is a poor one.

The transport would be a better benchmark to look at but even that has serious flaws...you can technically field 2...but all the special cards people want from that box are unique as well...so only one comes in a box, but if you buy 2x you can sell the spares and the spare Xwing mini if you want, but they arent considered as good or necessary by the "meta" so demand is lacking. You also bump into the problem of having to sell them all together due to the chits/bases. You cant easily parse them out. You CAN with the x1 title and ATC, and on top of that you can still sell the model and new pilot cards/chits if you end up not needing them, just like the transport.

The reasons stated above are I dont think most people saw the utility of 2x transports (though I know of a few who did...not sure what they did with the other cards...Ill have to ask em) when they cost so much. The incentive there was short. The Raider will change that. Everyone wants one of these TIE/x1s and ATCs. There arent too many of us who will have more than 2x TIE Adv once we open our boxes giving the majority of Xwingers 2 spares to do with what they want. This is a situation never encountered before. If these new cards manage to tear things up, as so many think they will, demand will skyrocket...and if you can field 2x raiders in a epic game the chances further improve. Newbies coming into the game that want to run the TIE Adv will be looking for these keeping demand higher, every new TIE adv sold will lead someone to wanting another one of these cards, with 3PO and the transport Xwing pilots once you have them...you no longer need to look for them causing demand to decrease. Many of said newbies may very well be willing to give Epic a shot due to this move. We will see how many epic points they come out to be...there are still a great many variables here. But I think my hypothesis will win out...

In summary...you made alot of assumptions without considering all the variables involved. Leading you to miss a few things which I have attempted to point out to you. I am not out to change your mind...your opinion means nothing to me. But its good to have flesh out my arguments and justify my answers...especially to people posting with the passion that you did. Have I made assumptions in my arguments? Absolutely. I go off the data I have and the experience I have gleaned from my career in the business world. Forecasting isnt easy work...especially when yo have a game with the exponential growth Xwing has seen. I am glad the released the Adv fix this way...it has already gotten people talking more about epic and these arguments only bring more attention to the game mode. If you dont like it....I dont really know what to tell you and, in all honesty, I dont really care. I have outlined your options as I see them here. Are there more? Maybe...but I dont see em and I dont have to look for them as I plan to buy a Raider on release day (once I convince the wife.)

You are free to disregard this wall of text for whatever reason you see fit...as I said I dont care what you think one way or another...but Thanks for the opportunity to better flesh out my argument...I am even more confident in my position now.

(And I told you this would have been impossible on my phone!!! =P)

All other things aside (and I was always going to buy the Raider, regardless of whether it had the TIE Advanced fix) the secondary market does seem to be a bit of a red herring. I don't really care about price- I'm happy to buy ships for the upgrade cards so the only time I look for singles is when I can't find the ship (YT-1300 for engine upgrades) or I already have as many of the ship as I can field but still want more of the upgrade (Firespray for stealth device and proxiity mine). They just aren't available, at all, that I have seen. The TIE X1 is going to be a sought-after card in a ship that isn't brought in large multiples by most people. I would bet good money that demand for the card on the secondary market is going to vastly outstrip supply.

All other things aside (and I was always going to buy the Raider, regardless of whether it had the TIE Advanced fix) the secondary market does seem to be a bit of a red herring. I don't really care about price- I'm happy to buy ships for the upgrade cards so the only time I look for singles is when I can't find the ship (YT-1300 for engine upgrades) or I already have as many of the ship as I can field but still want more of the upgrade (Firespray for stealth device and proxiity mine). They just aren't available, at all, that I have seen. The TIE X1 is going to be a sought-after card in a ship that isn't brought in large multiples by most people. I would bet good money that demand for the card on the secondary market is going to vastly outstrip supply.

Its certainly possible I wont dispute that. But as I pointed out...each new Adv model sold will want these keeping demand up in a way unseen with any other card. But even if that is the case...dont we all have people we play with? I am sure there will be a mix of people who will buy this and people who wont...and those that wont can get them off those who will...4x titles is alot when only one model is provided, and most people we can think of will have 2x if they buy the raider.

There are options outside of Ebay. We will see what happens in the coming year...

EDIT TO ADD: of course you will have a hard time finding cards on the secondary market for the YT-1300 and Firespray right now...we are waiting for a reprint...the primary market isnt even full at this point in time.