Right now, whatever happens it is a double edged sword.

If FFG crumble and release a 'Yavin Aces' pack with the X-Wing and Advanced fixes, we get two more complaints:

1) People complaining they have to buy a double pack just for one ship. "What do I want with an X-Wing expansion! I play Empire, I'm not paying $30 for a TIE Advance and a ship I don't need!"

2) People who bought either epic ship (mostly the Rebel players) to get the expanded stuff, only for FFG to turn around and release them in a cheaper pack. "What the hell FFG! I spend $75 on a Transport just for the X-Wing and NOW you release it in a smaller, cheaper pack! Get lost FFG, worst company ever!"

They can't win, either way something is bad. If you want the TIE Advance expansion here is my advice, buy the epic ship and either suck it up or sell the stuff you don't want on Ebay, because right now the 'solutions' other people are coming up with would just cause more issues in the community.

I enjoy epic, and I am glad I do, if you don't I feel sorry for you and understand your pain, but this is how it has to be. Who knows, you may make back a majority of your money on Ebay.

But that's just a massive straw man.

Every release pack so far, someone, somewhere has complained about the cards included/not-included are unfair to be packaged that way. To be fair, the biggest complaint against Epic seems to have been that there wasn't an Imperial Epic ship for it. Problem solved. For all the complains of "I'm not buying Rebel Epic because there's no Empire Epic", I think we can put that to rest now.

I'm a huge fanboy of this game, and I think this release is spectacular. I love playing Epic. I love the TIE/Ad. I cannot wait to order this from my FLGS, and have them all on the table as soon as they arrive. I've flown the TIE/Ad consistently since it's been released. Prockets were a great improvement for them and I've had great fun flying them thus far.

FFG knew fully well what they were doing, I would believe, from my observation that the release announcement for the Raider was pretty much just about the TIE/Ad patch. How many upgrade cards, pilots or new data on the Raider do we have, other than that it's coming. Virtually none, other than a few grainy photos of some of the core stats of the Epic ship itself.

Fly casual.

Noone is arguing that FFG don't know what they are doing.

Noone has complained about a similar situation, because a similar situation hasn't existed before in x wing. THis is unique because it contains cards that fix a specific problem that shouldn't have existed - unless you assume the TIE advanced is balanced and didn't need these cards.

This is different to C3PO for reasons i've already explained. Even Rebel Aces gave you new content and was much cheaper.

Here you either want the Raider, which is fine, or you spend £70 to get a couple of cards to fix just one ship.

Here you either want the Raider, which is fine, or you spend £70 to get a couple of cards to fix just one ship.

Or you get those cards on the secondary market for a sensible price rather than buying a Raider when you don't intend to use it (which is silly) or if you're not tournamenting them either proxy them or memorise what they do (which really isn't hard).

Here you either want the Raider, which is fine, or you spend £70 to get a couple of cards to fix just one ship.

Or you get those cards on the secondary market for a sensible price rather than buying a Raider when you don't intend to use it (which is silly) or if you're not tournamenting them either proxy them or memorise what they do (which really isn't hard).

Hes not gonna do that though..he wants to "support FFG" in a way that is most beneficial to him. He wont buy off the secondary market even though it will very well be a viable option. He is essentially creating his own rules and complaining when the company doesnt want to play by the rules he created.

I have heard several arguments saying that this is somehow wrong, gouging, or taking advantage of the customer base. Once again I beg to differ...seriously this is how the market works. This company is a money making enterprise not some charity case. They will do what they must within corporate reason to make as much money as possible...Im not posting all my support as a "fanboy" (love the derogatory term by the way) as much providing a counterweight to the self entitled whining I have been hearing for the past few days that, frankly, I am sick of. You have the right to complain and criticize...and I have the right to come in counter your complaining as aggressively as possible.

Signoftheserpent you may think it was strictly cost and/or lack of interest that kept people out of epic...but can you prove that? I doubt you have any evidence outside of a "gut feeling" or "well in my group..." to prove this. These forms of evidence are all I have and I come down on the opposite side...the main reason my group has shied away from epic was due to most of us being Imperial players and there being no imperial epic...but guess what? We all have at least one epic rebel ship and most of us have both...because we enjoyed the few games we played and knew eventually an imperial epic would come. My evidence is based only on my groups experience but at least I have presented something to back my assertion instead of posting my opinion as fact with no supporting evidence. Now come in and show me what your group does...but neither of us has enough evidence to say one way or the other.

The sheer number of titles and ATCs that come with this pack I think will be very condusive to a secondary market . That some of you dont want to take advantage of it due to some self imposed "high horse" mentality isnt a problem that any but those of you who employ it have to worry about. Hell, I may sell one or two of mine to supplement the cost of the ship. You dont want to buy a ship you dont need for cards that you want...why should I not be able to lower my cost a bit off the cards I dont need from a ship I want? Does this only work one way? You have the option to buy or not buy...you or I are not entitled to any part of this game...nor do we, as individuals, dictate how it is to be sold. If you have such a giant problem with this then stop spending your time arguing with us on the forum, get off your posterior, and go out there start a campaign and hit FFG where it hurts...their wallet. I dont think you will have much support though. If all you are going to do is whine and shout your outrage on the interwebz then your not going to see much change. Be the change you want to see...actions speak louder than words. And in business money speaks louder than actions.

Epic will grow and develop out of this move...the game will grow and develop out of this move. I am glad to see some extra support for a format I enjoy. Heres hoping they do this again.

Price gouging would of seen one of each advanced card per epic ship they are including four so you don't have to buy multiple ships.

If you don't want to buy the cards individually suck it up and buy the whole pack or run advanced without the upgrade.

People buy bits from sites for 40k all the time, it's really common to have parts left over you can't use and instead of buying the whole kit again they order just the bodies as it works out so much cheaper.

The option to just buy the cards will be there, if your too ocd to not use it that's your issue really.

Ffg are a company they made a business decision, so can you either buy it or don't, buy cards separate or don't it's simple and not worth this drama.

I'mma going to be getting a raider no matter what. I'd get it if it didn't have the x1 cards. The X1 cards are the icing on the imperial epic cake.

Here you either want the Raider, which is fine, or you spend £70 to get a couple of cards to fix just one ship.

Or you get those cards on the secondary market for a sensible price rather than buying a Raider when you don't intend to use it (which is silly) or if you're not tournamenting them either proxy them or memorise what they do (which really isn't hard).

That will be the only alternative unless FFG changes their mind, which isn't likely. The pro blem is that doesn't support the publisher nor the retailer.

I don't want to proxy cards; that's a terrible way to play any game and, really, it just proves the point.

What I don't get is why anyone is caring about 'supporting the publisher'. On one hand, folk are displaying some righteous anger at the 'price gouging' of a company, and in the same breath saying they want to support them.

I get that some don't want the raider. I get that some can't afford the raider, and that these peeps may want the advanced stuff. But the fact they don't just go and pick up the relevant cards from ebay really pickles my noodle.

It's a solution to your problem, yet it's rejected on some arbitrary notion of support. The person selling the cards has already paid ffg for them. Do you think ffg really cares where you buy the upgrades? They've already got the cash for them. In fact, I'd argue that they put 4 in the box in an attempt to get them out there.

I for one welcome our new epic imperial overlords.

A lot of people want a stand alone box for the cards. Sure, there are perfectly good reasons to not want to get the epic ship, but disregarding the secondary market out of hand is just willful obstenance because FFG isn't giving you EXACTLY what you want.

The epic imperial ship was coming to an enthusiastic fan base. There is a year old monstrously long thread acting as a monument to this fact. For whatever reason, FFG decided to have the advanced fix come here. Perhaps another imperial aces pack isn't going to come out any time soon. It doesn't matter, the fix is coming and sooner than later.

4 sets of the advanced upgrades are going to be in the pack. People complain about the secondary market no supporting FFG? This overkill of cardboard is FFG supporting you, the non-epic player, though the secondary market! They have been doing this for a while now. Look at rebel aces and the amount of excess a-wing cards that came with that. Look every ship expansion that has been larger than a small ship. All of them have had duplicate cards. That is more support than most miniature games companies are inclined to provide...

a little late to the thread, but srsly? a rip-off??

even if you don't play epic, that ship looks awesome. You'll be able to find deals on it, you don't have to pay $99. OR you can sell the model on ebay without the cards and recoup some cost.

OR find a friend who is buying more than 1, maybe they don't want all the cards from both sets?

Interesting discussion with some flash-backs to previous ones.

But still everyone here has a point. Some will buy a Raider anyway and for the entire pack $100 or 90 Euro´s is a reasonable price. For some the Advanced is just an added bonus. Some will even say the complainers should stop whining and tell them they don´t have to buy it. All valid points. Even the outsider who doesn´t care but reads for entertainment has one (Yup Joe Boss Red Seven, that is you! )

But our fellow forum members who complain have points too. Some have been waiting quite a while for an Advanced fix and now see it added to a pack which is either expensive or contains a ship they do not want (for whatever reason). That is a bit of a disappointment. Epic isn´t for all, so seeing your much wished for packed with it can definately feel as a rip off. A smart one, from marketing point of view it is brilliant as many more will buy the raider because of it. Maybe that even makes it more frustrating. The ´****, they have played it economically. And played it well too .´ kind off thought.

I would have prefered to see the Advanced fix it in a separate smaller pack, yes, but the sky is still pretty high up here, so no drama. After all, it is a game, with plastic toys, though.... a very good one

I collect some models to have a nice casual game and join the odd tournament for fun. I know I will exclude myself from some cards and/or mini´s, but I can live with that. It is what I think is one of the most brilliant parts of this game; it is, and remains, an (almost) uniquely very well balanced game. No matter what is added to the mix. Hats of to FFG for that!

Will I get the Raider? No, I am not that much drawn to it and I won´t use it. The Raider would just remain as a mantelpiece until one of the kids accidentaly destroys it.Or maybe I shouldn´t hide behind the kids and admit it will be me trying to show-flip pancakes!

Would I like to play against the Raider? Sure, the one Epic game I did was fun!

I am not much of a proxy user as I do like to have the cards themselves. Preferably the originals.

(My little bit of personal OCD )

Maybe a friend buys one and sells me the title and system upgrade card. Maybe I can buy them from one of you guys.

But even if that doesn´t happen I will still like and use the Advanced if I don´t get the cards.

I am curious what will happen to some of my other favourites, the Bomber (more ammo and bombs!) and the X-Wing (as whined many times before a Green one with Corran Horn, Whistler, and, while we´re at it, the astromech of Wedge please )

A lot of people want a stand alone box for the cards. Sure, there are perfectly good reasons to not want to get the epic ship, but disregarding the secondary market out of hand is just willful obstenance because FFG isn't giving you EXACTLY what you want.

The epic imperial ship was coming to an enthusiastic fan base. There is a year old monstrously long thread acting as a monument to this fact. For whatever reason, FFG decided to have the advanced fix come here. Perhaps another imperial aces pack isn't going to come out any time soon. It doesn't matter, the fix is coming and sooner than later.

4 sets of the advanced upgrades are going to be in the pack. People complain about the secondary market no supporting FFG? This overkill of cardboard is FFG supporting you, the non-epic player, though the secondary market! They have been doing this for a while now. Look at rebel aces and the amount of excess a-wing cards that came with that. Look every ship expansion that has been larger than a small ship. All of them have had duplicate cards. That is more support than most miniature games companies are inclined to provide...

Noone has disregarded the secondary market, even out of hand.

It would be best if people actually read what was written instead of constructing straw men to argue against. I don't want to have to use the secondary market; imagine if there weren't enough Raiders on sale to the players because the stock had been snapped up not by actual players but by people looking to sell the components separately. Is that a good thing for the game and the community?

a little late to the thread, but srsly? a rip-off??

even if you don't play epic, that ship looks awesome. You'll be able to find deals on it, you don't have to pay $99. OR you can sell the model on ebay without the cards and recoup some cost.

OR find a friend who is buying more than 1, maybe they don't want all the cards from both sets?

Well...the Raider with an added TIE Advanced is clearly no rip off. Great models, good value. Providing a $100 fix as the only avenue to improve a craft that FFG admittedly whiffed on is a bit much.

Is anyone really going to sell their extra cards? I've only got 2 tie advanced but there's no way I'm selling the extra. No telling if I'll ever pick up two more on a whim. I guess maybe if I got a little loose with my budget and bought two raiders, but even then I'm not so sure.

a little late to the thread, but srsly? a rip-off??

even if you don't play epic, that ship looks awesome. You'll be able to find deals on it, you don't have to pay $99. OR you can sell the model on ebay without the cards and recoup some cost.

OR find a friend who is buying more than 1, maybe they don't want all the cards from both sets?

Well...the Raider with an added TIE Advanced is clearly no rip off. Great models, good value. Providing a $100 fix as the only avenue to improve a craft that FFG admittedly whiffed on is a bit much.

This is the sore spot driving this discussion. The TIE Advanced has been just about indisputably the worst ship in X-Wing for a very long time. Even Vader having one of the best pilot abilities in the game hasn't been able to get it into competitive lists because his ride is just that bad. Keep in mind that the relatively less broken A-Wing got its fix for much cheaper.

Intentional or not, this move smacks of FFG going "we don't care that you have to have this if you ever want your Advanced to be anything more than a pretty model. We don't care that it's because we screwed the pooch hard on designing the ship. All we care is that there is a huge demand for it, so we're going to milk it." And yeah, that's smart corporate behavior. That's how big money businesses are run. That doesn't mean the folks on the other side of it have to be happy about it and ask "please, sir, can I have some more."

And where is this thriving secondary market that people in here keep taking about? Team Covenant is always out of the cards people really want (3PO, Engine Upgrade, Predator, Outmaneuver, VI, etc.) and generally only has stock on the things that came in the packs with popular cards but nobody really cares about. All of the eBay stores I've found have the same issue. Do people seriously think cards literally mandatory to play a ship competitively are going to be easier to score than those others on the secondary market?

Here you either want the Raider, which is fine, or you spend £70 to get a couple of cards to fix just one ship.

Or, surprisingly enough, some players want both. I know I do.

Here you either want the Raider, which is fine, or you spend £70 to get a couple of cards to fix just one ship.

Or, surprisingly enough, some players want both. I know I do.

Yes, that's what I said: some people want the raider.

all i can suggest is find someone that wants multiples of the big ship and go in on an expansion together. u both win.

And where is this thriving secondary market that people in here keep taking about? Team Covenant is always out of the cards people really want (3PO, Engine Upgrade, Predator, Outmaneuver, VI, etc.) and generally only has stock on the things that came in the packs with popular cards but nobody really cares about. All of the eBay stores I've found have the same issue. Do people seriously think cards literally mandatory to play a ship competitively are going to be easier to score than those others on the secondary market?

This is true, actually. Team Covenant only ever seem to have the cards which no-one wants in stock. Try and get any of the cards you might need more of than what comes in the packs- Advanced Sensors, Push the Limit, Proximity Mines, Engine Upgrade, Predator, Outmaneuver, R2 Astromech, R7 Astromech, Vet Instincts... All pretty much always out of stock.

Plenty of Determination and Proton Torpedoes available though

all i can suggest is finsd someone that wants multiples of the big ship and go in on an expansion together. u both win.

I can certainly agree that it is bad form, since not everyone wants huge ships, and that the Transport X-Wing and Raider Advanced should be made available as expansions on their own.

I for one love the Raider and the Advanced so I don't mind.

And where is this thriving secondary market that people in here keep taking about? Team Covenant is always out of the cards people really want (3PO, Engine Upgrade, Predator, Outmaneuver, VI, etc.) and generally only has stock on the things that came in the packs with popular cards but nobody really cares about. All of the eBay stores I've found have the same issue. Do people seriously think cards literally mandatory to play a ship competitively are going to be easier to score than those others on the secondary market?

This is true, actually. Team Covenant only ever seem to have the cards which no-one wants in stock. Try and get any of the cards you might need more of than what comes in the packs- Advanced Sensors, Push the Limit, Proximity Mines, Engine Upgrade, Predator, Outmaneuver, R2 Astromech, R7 Astromech, Vet Instincts... All pretty much always out of stock.

Plenty of Determination and Proton Torpedoes available though

Anyway, the absolute worst it could be for the advanced fix is around 25 bucks a ship. And thats assuming that there is basically no demand for anything else in that box, which seems pretty unlikely given that there are at least 3 crew that probably will work in the regular game (The emperor, Tarken, and some admiral), no to meantion people who want the epic stuff including people who want the cards for their rebel epic ships. The secondary market will be a fine option. Ruling it out for some spirit of supporting a company which is apparently engaging in practices which people who care about this issue are calling unethical is dumb.

And where is this thriving secondary market that people in here keep taking about? Team Covenant is always out of the cards people really want (3PO, Engine Upgrade, Predator, Outmaneuver, VI, etc.) and generally only has stock on the things that came in the packs with popular cards but nobody really cares about. All of the eBay stores I've found have the same issue. Do people seriously think cards literally mandatory to play a ship competitively are going to be easier to score than those others on the secondary market?

This is true, actually. Team Covenant only ever seem to have the cards which no-one wants in stock. Try and get any of the cards you might need more of than what comes in the packs- Advanced Sensors, Push the Limit, Proximity Mines, Engine Upgrade, Predator, Outmaneuver, R2 Astromech, R7 Astromech, Vet Instincts... All pretty much always out of stock.

Plenty of Determination and Proton Torpedoes available though

Hmmm, I like determination... works nice on TIE´s and Interceptors especially the PS4 and PS6 pilots.

Maybe I will take a look...

Why does everyone keep talking that it's $99? You can buy it online for a lot cheaper. My local store sells the Tantive IV for $90, but I bought mine online for about $52 + shipping. That's a much more reasonable price.

They are complaining because they don't want to have to buy one of the most expensive ships, only intended for a particularly and rarely used style of play, in order to get the cards that fix a ship they do use.

I've no idea why that's hard to understand.

Oh, I get that they don't like to have to buy the product, but I don't get why they quote the worst price they can get. If you are going to complain, at least complain honestly.

Maybe it's just me...but I find the idea of complaining about the price of a luxury item in a capitalist society to be terribly amusing.