I always thought Lidless Stare HAD to be an eye-contact thing. My navigator is misinformed. I have to say, i've never had someone be stupid with Lidless Stare. Of course, my Navigator players have all actually been really nervous around combat for fear of LOSING that eye they're so proud of.

Hmm, another thing to rant about.....

Oh yes, how about in Only War, when you roll on the requisition table, and you get......a M*****F***ing DUFFEL OF DIRTY LAUNDRY. AND THEN THEY GIVE THIS TO YOU AND TELL YOU TO KILL A MAN WITH IT. WHAT. The fact that i DID manage to kill a CSM with it is beside the point, my point is that whole system is kinda stupid to me, so when i use it, always come up with something less inane, like "sorry, it seems some other squad got the meltagun. sorry dudes. I do have a couple hot-shot charge packs if it means anything"

GM rant:

I'm currently running LotE as well and after something like 12-20 sessions we're about halfway through. I understand the railroad aspect everyone has been mentioning but for my group that has been alright. Minus me and one player everyone else is fresh off the DnD boat and have barely even started feeling the freeroaming wonder of RT. So even though everyone is pretty content on just Indiana Jonesing through through this or any other adventure but I'm constantly feeling like they can do so much more! I always want to give them so much advice on what the can or should do but I hate straight up telling them what decisions to make. I think about making a GMPC strictly for giving that advice a body and personality but I just remember how terribly those are and dont know how to balance it. on the other hand of this, even though I want to and want the party to scale up their encounters, I still dont really know how to scale up for them to begin with. Maybe part 3 will help me with that (havent read ahead) but so far part 1 and first 3 star map locations havent really dealt with it. one starship battle leaving footfall and one 40-50 man firefight on quppa psi which just boiled down to a duel anyway (another gear grinder of mine but due to my own ignorance but thats another post)

tl;dr cant scale up, cant give advice without feeling like the railroad conductor, and cant figure out incorporaring the rivals as a bonus

edit: oh and psykers. I have an astropath and navigator and keeping them in line or balanced is tough. the warp ee is one hell of a glass cannon and left our navigator out of commission during two battles being passed out and bored all session

My biggest frustration is that some players aren't ok with "no" as an answer.

-I want a Guncutter

No you're an acolyte what do you need with a guncutter

-Well we don't have to use it I just want one

No because as soon as I give you one you'll just use it because you have it

-THIS IS COMPLETELY UNFAIR I"M A THRONE AGENT I DESERVE RESPECT

We're not at Ascension, you're a scrub, ya scrub.

Later:

-We want into the capital building there's something in there we want

No appointment no entrance. You could set up an appointment though it'd only be-

-*cuts off guard with a bullet* I'm so done with waiting!

I...ugh. ((Would've been 2 hours in game, meaning literally nothing in real life.))

-They proceed to murder their way through the capital building and get upset when a kill team comes and arrests them.

Also lack of trust in GM really grinds my gears.

If it's about any system then I'll never get to play a summoner in Pathfinder because apparently they're broken, and I'll never get to play any game with Cthulhu in the name because certain people I game with don't thing it's worth the effort if you're going to go crazy and die in the end.

El Thang, it doesn't sound like Lidless Stare is your problem. It's the person playing your Navigator. They seem to think killing everyone at the dinner table is comic relief. Make sure among all the dead people at the dinner table is the person with the key clue to the next source of PF. "Sorry folks, the Navigator killed the PF...again. This session is over. I'll come up with another adventure." Do this 3 times and see if things don't change.

Although, I think most people here know by now that my personal solution to the problem would be killing the Navigator.

Cornwallis, in one game I got a very similar reponse from my players. They just didn't get the scale. They were also new to RT. They were playing penny-ante poker at the table with The Bigs.

Now I hate GMPCs and have for decades, so I made a rival Dynasty to challenge their escapades. This Dynasty didn't beat them to their prize. I didn't want to deprive the party of their just rewards. I just wanted them to get more out of their rewards than they were aiming for. I needed them to think bigger.

I'd already run LotE and hated it, for reasons already stated, so while the party did some adventures I'd drawn up, other Dynasties went off chasing the Dread Pearl. It made for good background rumors.

In the meantime, the Rival Dynasty found the Righteous Path, salvaged the Forsaken Bounty, escaped from The Dark Frontier, saved Svard from the Whisperers, and otherwise one-upped the party in everything they did, bringing home much more loot, but more importantly gaining more honor and glory, and all the intendant influence and the all-important Profit Factor.

There were many hints and rumors surrounding this Rival Dynasty's success, giving my players clues into better game-play. They were good players, too. They just hadn't yet gotten the scale of RT. This woke them up (slowly) and they did things differently, and by the end of the campaign they were the Big Cheese, the Fat Man, and not just the New Kid on the Block.

Yet another dynasty out there performed The Warpstorm Trilogy and the climax of the campaign was the Battle of Footfall. Many dynasties participated (I left out The Big Three). It was a grand space combat with over 20 starships involved (24 if I remember correctly, not including the ones giving chase in the outer system), including the party and the Rival Dynasty. This time the party got to one-up the Rival Dynasty by defeating Karrad Vall on his bridge. Happy Ending.

"Sorry folks, the Navigator killed the PF...again. This session is over. I'll come up with another adventure." Do this 3 times and see if things don't change.

Ehh, personally I'd regard this to be on the same level as "rocks fall, everyone dies" --> the GM is incapable to deal with a situation the players have created using tools provided normally by the game = the GM lacks the ability to adapt to changing situations. Which conjures the impression that the GM just wants to railroad everyone.

For players creating in-game problems, look for in-game solutions.

Or change the way the game works.

But don't just call it off and send people home. >_>

large scale ship combat is another frustrating thing for me. its bad enough how long it takes to do one on one with 3 party members sitting around while one pilots and the other shoots. (I know actions but they're never as exciting as flying and shooting, especially with this 'party-heavy' group) without adding in 20 more ships, all with their own move shoot and action, all done by me with all 5 players sitting and waiting

Actually you could always give players negative achievement points for causing too much havok? Thus screwing up their ability to complete the endevor.

"Sorry folks, the Navigator killed the PF...again. This session is over. I'll come up with another adventure." Do this 3 times and see if things don't change.

Ehh, personally I'd regard this to be on the same level as "rocks fall, everyone dies" --> the GM is incapable to deal with a situation the players have created using tools provided normally by the game = the GM lacks the ability to adapt to changing situations. Which conjures the impression that the GM just wants to railroad everyone.

For players creating in-game problems, look for in-game solutions.

Or change the way the game works.

But don't just call it off and send people home. >_>

I agree, altough sometimes some groups pull off stuff that makes the GM wish he could go "Okay, everybody and their ship get sucked trough the warp into the realm of chaos. Khorne has enough of your sh*t and he kills you."

I agree, altough sometimes some groups pull off stuff that makes the GM wish he could go "Okay, everybody and their ship get sucked trough the warp into the realm of chaos. Khorne has enough of your sh*t and he kills you."

Oh, feeling that way is perfectly acceptable and understandable ...

A rant thread? I like it. Here goes.

I hate lidless stare. I hate everything about it. Any time I try to create a tense moment, or an epic climatic encounter, it immediately changes into "Lets find out if the big guy can roll to not die". And I'm not talking about boss fights, either. Casual dinner parties to introduce a plot point, trade negotiations, even diplomatic events often end in a room full of corpses. Worst part is, it's part of the core and with a PC already having sunk xp into it, I can't exactly take it away or even change it really. So I'm stuck with creating NPCs that die (literally) on sight because I gave them a name, so they must be a threat, and there's almost no way to defend against it.

tl;dr: **** lidless stare.

I had one player play a navigator like that right up to the point he ran into an NPC with pure faith. Burned one fate point for the NPC and then shot the navigator in the head with a bolt pistol. Should have seen the players face when it happened.

Update for those interested. The navigator I mentioned above ran afoul of Eldar assassins while picking fights on Vaporious. Fate points were burnt, and a nerf to lidless stare will come with it. Thanks everyone for the help.

Update for those interested. The navigator I mentioned above ran afoul of Eldar assassins while picking fights on Vaporious. Fate points were burnt, and a nerf to lidless stare will come with it. Thanks everyone for the help.

Not bad, not bad. Had to do something similar to a psyker, who was ruining everyone's fun in one of my campaigns. The guy met with a Stormboy who's jump pack exploded right after he charged the psyker. This was back in Dark Heresy, when even the minor powers were unreasonably OP. After that guy happened, I started imposing strict restrictions on any psykers in my campaigns.

2nd Edition of Dark Heresy fixes every problem I've had with Psykers from 1st so far. Something may come up, but not as of yet.

2nd Edition of Dark Heresy fixes every problem I've had with Psykers from 1st so far. Something may come up, but not as of yet.

True. I implemented most of that into BC and it works perfectly.

"Sorry folks, the Navigator killed the PF...again. This session is over. I'll come up with another adventure." Do this 3 times and see if things don't change.

Ehh, personally I'd regard this to be on the same level as "rocks fall, everyone dies" --> the GM is incapable to deal with a situation the players have created using tools provided normally by the game = the GM lacks the ability to adapt to changing situations. Which conjures the impression that the GM just wants to railroad everyone.

For players creating in-game problems, look for in-game solutions.

Or change the way the game works.

But don't just call it off and send people home. >_>

Geez Lynata, last time I told 'em what I really think , people got all militant about RT freedoms and privileges and their Warrant to Do As They Please.

Okay, so said Navigator goes on the wanted list. Every repeat performance raises their status on that list until they make the Most Wanted List. In the meantime, the dead people have friends and consequences are forthcoming. Ports might be closed, depending on the importance of the dead. Certainly trade connections are going to be harmed. Roll twice on the Misfortunes Table and apply both results.

But many people here don't think that's the way it goes. I'm remembering the argument where pirating someone's ship doesn't raise a fuss, so I can't imagine a fatal dinner table will either, at least not in those campaigns.

Cornwallis, I've done some very large starship combats and haven't found them too onerous. Make sure you get plenty of small ones under your belt first, though. Having to look up the rules is what slowed me down the most. The next big fix is shields. I have them come down for the whole round, as in BFG, not just per ship firing. Do that and have squadrons concentrate their fire. Numbers get pared down quickly. And don't be afraid to narrate. Sure, that burning ship isn't so badly damaged that it can't repair if left to its own devices, and maybe rejoin the fray later, but do you have to roll it out? Either people keep shooting at it, in which case let it die, or they leave it to its own devices and it can re-enter the battle later.

And it helps the excitement level when everyone has their own ship, or a major role on the ship they're on. Missionaries make great captains. Astropaths don't. Still, the Astropath might be THE representative of the Dynasty on board, and uses a proxy NPC to wear the actual captain's stripes. And a smaller ship can be modified to take advantage of the Astropath's abilities without sacrificing the squadron's firepower.

"Sorry folks, the Navigator killed the PF...again. This session is over. I'll come up with another adventure." Do this 3 times and see if things don't change.

Ehh, personally I'd regard this to be on the same level as "rocks fall, everyone dies" --> the GM is incapable to deal with a situation the players have created using tools provided normally by the game = the GM lacks the ability to adapt to changing situations. Which conjures the impression that the GM just wants to railroad everyone.

For players creating in-game problems, look for in-game solutions.

Or change the way the game works.

But don't just call it off and send people home. >_>

Geez Lynata, last time I told 'em what I really think , people got all militant about RT freedoms and privileges and their Warrant to Do As They Please.

Okay, so said Navigator goes on the wanted list. Every repeat performance raises their status on that list until they make the Most Wanted List. In the meantime, the dead people have friends and consequences are forthcoming. Ports might be closed, depending on the importance of the dead. Certainly trade connections are going to be harmed. Roll twice on the Misfortunes Table and apply both results.

But many people here don't think that's the way it goes. I'm remembering the argument where pirating someone's ship doesn't raise a fuss, so I can't imagine a fatal dinner table will either, at least not in those campaigns.

The difference is that Rogue Traders don't think like normal people. Steal one of their ships out in the expanse? Ehn... that sucks, but I can get more... possibly from YOU next time we meet.

But you kill their best buddy? Oh it is ON now. You might as well have insulted their HAT. They're going to go to war and they're going to bring everybody they can to the table to get you because it's a VENDETTA now.

Further, navigator houses are always fighting one another. You really, REALLY think one of them isn't going to see the whole "hey, that guy is alienating his house leadership by giving them a bad name" and then think they can maybe make a play for him, get some revenge in, make life a little more difficult for the rival house in a way that said house isn't going to work too hard to retaliate or protect against? Hell, maybe someone inside his own navigator house will try to curry favor with their paternovus by killing off the navigator and removing a thorn from their sire's side?

Rogue Traders have a lot of freedom yes, but it isn't infinite. Under the right view of the law then employing a a navigator like that is considered heresy, and they'll be meeting a witch hunter soon enough who has the authority to quarantine their ship to make sure that heresy hasn't spread.

Just think about that their ship in permanent dock, most of their crew killed for safe measures, Paid for by their dynasty of course because the big I isn't footing the bill.

And remember that Rogue traders are sure as hell under the law of the imperium the moment they return to imperial space. They only come into the full power of their warrants of trade when outside imperial controlled space. So the moment your crew returns to imperial space (as they should if they want to turn a profit) then they'll find themselves in deep trouble.

And remember that Rogue traders are sure as hell under the law of the imperium the moment they return to imperial space. They only come into the full power of their warrants of trade when outside imperial controlled space. So the moment your crew returns to imperial space (as they should if they want to turn a profit) then they'll find themselves in deep trouble.

Well they still have tons of money to bribe people with, and a frikkin big spaceship full of weapons of mass destruction to threathen people to back off. It's not gonna help them much against the inquisition tough...

And remember that Rogue traders are sure as hell under the law of the imperium the moment they return to imperial space. They only come into the full power of their warrants of trade when outside imperial controlled space. So the moment your crew returns to imperial space (as they should if they want to turn a profit) then they'll find themselves in deep trouble.

Well they still have tons of money to bribe people with, and a frikkin big spaceship full of weapons of mass destruction to threathen people to back off. It's not gonna help them much against the inquisition tough...

Yes, but the bribes involved to buy off that much inquisition attention should permanently burn off profit factor. Further, they should be losing profit factor to misfortunes from the inquisition hunting their assets, scaring away customers, all that stuff.

There are plenty of ways to backhand the players for this sort of thing without them being able to complain. Hit them in their profit factor. Hit them in their peers. Hit them in their contacts.

The Inquisition can be shot to pieces by the big ship when they're out in normal space (assuming their astropath doesn't send a warning back to the imperium), but in imperial space? The Navy in port wander ALONE has enough fire power to shoot apart any lone rogue trader with less than a dozen battle focused ships.

Let's not derail this thread into this debate again. The last few iterations have demonstrated that many of us have very firm but very different beliefs on the authority and interactions the Inquisition and Rogue Traders have on each other and on the Imperium as a whole.

Society is incapable of functioning if people can get away with murdering anyone they meet for fear they might be a threat. Seriously, not even emperors can get away with that for very long. It's like the old story of the general on his way to see the Qin Emperor who was delayed by rainstorms, and turns to his friend and asks "what's the penalty for being late?" "Death." "And what's the penalty for rebellion?" "Death." "Well, in that case..." Except in this case it's not the penalty for being late, but for walking up to the guy and introducing yourself by name at all. Someone this trigger happy is going to get a reputation, and then everyone they try to get an audience with will refuse. If they do not have the legal power to refuse, they will fight. Because when you murder everyone or almost everyone you meet, that's what happens. Also, anyone who poses a threat to the rule of law tends to get dealt with by whoever's in charge of the law right quick, and someone whose abuses of their legal powers are so extreme that people open fire on agents of the government because hey, what have we got to lose, absolutely qualifies as a threat to the rule of law. The Inquisition may or may not be the officially sanctioned tool for bringing the hammer down on people who are destabilizing control of an area, but the local rulers are going to find some means of dealing with that problem.

Heehee. And it's on...

GM rant:

Every freaking time I run RT I always get folks who want to use stuff from the other 40k games, gear, talents you name it. even if it is said up front "X books only" you always get at lest one guy who just has to have something from a DH, BC or OW book. EVERY FREAKING TIME.

It is highly annoying.

As a GM I had to dig for Baneblade stats once, luckily I found it in a recently bought OW rulebook.