but I doubt people are going to be thrilled at having to buy another full set of models they already have to get the new cards.

No one is going to buy their whole collection again just for the the sake of upgraded cards. The only way X-Wing 2.0 could work, is by selling the cards separately, I can't imagine anyone sticking with the game otherwise.

At least with other games like 40k, FoW, Warmachine, the models are always useful because you can just buy the new codex/book/card pack, and you're done.

but I doubt people are going to be thrilled at having to buy another full set of models they already have to get the new cards.

No one is going to buy their whole collection again just for the the sake of upgraded cards. The only way X-Wing 2.0 could work, is by selling the cards separately, I can't imagine anyone sticking with the game otherwise.

At least with other games like 40k, FoW, Warmachine, the models are always useful because you can just buy the new codex/book/card pack, and you're done.

Warmachine sure, but boy oh boy that is not how I remember 40k

The 40k business model more cloely resembled FFG, but instead of selling buffs to older ships in new containers GW nerfed the **** out of the last edition options and made the new (very expensive) arrivals the most OP crap possible.

5th edition Imperial Guard Valkyries or w.e they were called come to mind.

EDIT: actually, looking back at my WM, they do the exact same thing FFG does. If a unit is crap, they release a new unit attachment to give it abilities that make it more competitive (see Skinwalkers, Blighted Ogyrn Warspears)

Only difference was that if something was blatantly contrary to the nature of the game (like shield guard being un-usable if the target could not see the model, kind of like Biggs but with more of the feeling that the model would intercept bullets shot at an ally, and with miniatures that could willfully angle themselves to not see the shield guard and therefore somehow prevent it from taking a bullet for its friend) they would errata it.

If they do decide to start anew and make a 2nd Edition, I would imagine they will release an upgrade pack like they did for Descent.

It is actually a fairly similar set of circumstances, save for even safer in X-Wing, as there are even more crucial bits to the mini, dial and base plates.

...we will see some sort of X-wing 2nd Edition.

This is going to be very hard for them to do. They've really painted themselves into a corner with the hybrid minis/LCG model. The cards are a major driver in purchases, but I doubt people are going to be thrilled at having to buy another full set of models they already have to get the new cards. Likewise, as much as players may want it FFG has shown zero inclination to release standalone cards, and they almost certainly won't do it in a way that completely invalidates the card distribution model.

I totally agree with this.

A 2nd edition would have to just be a clarification of the rules and the addition of the FAQ. I know if a second edition came out that invalidated all my chits/cards/upgrades and only left themodel stand and (probably not even the dial) unnafected i'd just play the 1st edition i love and hoover up everyones second hand models cheap.

I'm probably not going to be playing much 'organised play' and i love playing old games.

As Buhallin says because of the clever way everything in the expansion is tied together I cant see how *mechanically* a second edition could make any really drastic changes without having to come with a huge box of replacement ship chits, pilot cards, dials and upgrades.

Warmachine sure, but boy oh boy that is not how I remember 40k

I know that GW does like to make popular things from old sets less powerful to sell more of the new stuff.

But a space marine is a space marine. I could use the ones made for 3rd edition in 7th edition, because all the stats are in the codex. I don't have to buy new space marines to play the new edition.

If FFG made a new edition of X-Wing and expected everyone to buy all the same ships again at full price, just so the stats on the cards were correct... The game would die in about a week, because no one is going to do that.

Some sort of conversion kit would have to be used, so you could buy new pilot, upgrade, base cards, ect...

So what are they going to do in 3 years time? Keep churning out early wave models? Making your business model based on getting new players usually ends in tears for everyone involved. How many of you are going to buy more of the ships that are already out? How many ships are you going to have to expect a new player to buy to get "fully involved"? There's a limit, and we're going to reach it sooner rather than later.

I don't know about you guys, but i'm dropping $500 on Armada and Wave 6 products in the next 6 months. I imagine its at least that much right now for a new player who wants to get a reasonable selection of all the Imperial and Rebel ships (including Epic) with enough upgrades to make whatever build you want without having to proxy .

How long can FFG sustain this with a single edition run? Do you want to turn around in 2017 and tell a buddy "hey try this game out, its super fun", and when he goes "well how much is it going to cost to be competitive?", you tell him well over $500?

Edit:
I just did some quick totals, and if you were to get two of most of the sets, plus 1 each of the Epics, and a cpl extra for the swarm ships, you're looking at easily $900. And thats just the stuff thats legal for play. There's a ton of people who have more than that, and Im not talking about the guys with 12 X-wings and whatnot.

This is a good point.

I've decided to buckle under and play 40k again with my mates who are all mad about ForgeWorlds Horus Heresy stuff.

Only i'm using my entirely pre 1990 lead 'beaky' marine army after i've repainted them as 'lunar wolves'

Totally legit, i could even play them in a tournement as its a 'gw model'

New editions of 40k or WFB, as you say, only invalidate stuff when they occasionally strike an entire unit from a codex, or make it not worth taking. But on the whole the core of your army is still viable.

People just buy a new one every time as unless you're an old git like me you want the 'cool new ones'

you tell him well over $500?

You mean like the $832 it would cost me to rebuild my 1750 point space marine army? That wasn't really even all that competitive, because it was too fluffy.

Resetting the game so everyone can start off with Wave 1 again isn't going to work. Not if they expect those of us who already own a bunch of stuff to buy it again. There's no way I'd ever even consider buying another X-Wing, Tie Fighter or A-Wing just for the sake the 2.0 stats.

So what are they going to do in 3 years time?

How long can FFG sustain this with a single edition run? Do you want to turn around in 2017 and tell a buddy "hey try this game out, its super fun", and when he goes "well how much is it going to cost to be competitive?", you tell him well over $500?

A while back my mate Andy worked in a GW store and shortly before 2nd edition 40k came out it was *impossible* to honestly sell someone a copy of 'rogue trader' 40k. You had to explain that to play the game with everyone else from scratch you needed the £15 rulebook, two £15 compendiums (or about £50 of out of print white dwarfs), the new shooting vehicles rules from a recent white dwarf and the new close combat rules from another.

I could be wrong here but I think we're not at that point with Xwing, sure a lot of good upgrades come with a very diverse set of expansions but if you're sticking to one faction at least things like imp aces meant that you didnt have to , as an imperial player, buy an a wing you didnt want to get that essential PTL card.

You've still got a fighting chance with a tie swarm made up of core sets and an expansion for howlrunner yeah? So you can be in the fight with a chance for about £70 GBP.

Comparatively if i wanted to get into say 'warhammer' these days im probably looking at £200 start up, and thats *before* i buy paint, glue, movement trays etc etc.

I'm not arguing that the game is broken, busted, or that we're on the cusp of an unplay-ability apocalypse. I'm merely stating that i believe we have a definite time limit for how much longer this version of the game will take us. Of course the game is nowhere near as bloated as 40k.

And i never argued that it'd be a reset or total wipe. What game company has ever done that? Not even GW has wiped out the core selections in their armies.... as far as i know >_> Have they removed popular choices for petty nonsensical reasons? Yeah, but that's because they're greedy assholes. But you could still be totally playing with Rogue Trader era Space Marines if you had the mini's.

FG is going to cap out eventually on how many X-wings people will be willing to buy. Its a basic fact of modern capitalism and economics. **** gets changed out. Cars, programs, all sorts of things get replaced over time for newer models. Most miniatures games do it as well. Why would X-wing be any different?

FFG is going to cap out eventually on how many X-wings people will be willing to buy.

I'm not sure I see your point. How will a X-Wing 2.0 change that?

FFG is going to cap out eventually on how many X-wings people will be willing to buy.

I'm not sure I see your point. How will a X-Wing 2.0 change that?

FFG can't rely on only new players buying basic X-wing expansions. They don't wear out like conventional products. You can't build your business model on relying for a huge amount of your product range to be picked up by only new players.

Basically. If you drop the two dominating ships to a more reasonable level, we'll get our variety back much more easily than upgrade bloat.

Chop one agility die off of cloak andcerrata the auto thrusters out of arc advantage into the base rules of the game (specifying primary wep to not **** over ys, hwks, near, or outrider which has a range 1 weakness at least)

Done and done. 3 dice ships wontvrun into a 4 green wall when they predict the phantom and their natural bulk plus 2 base agility would make them nice efficient counters to turreted ships

Even if these changes, or changes like them were possible, the misunderstand and miss the mark as to the actual problem with the X-Wing.

The problem with the X-wing is not, in fact, what they face on the table opposing them, but what can be built into their squad on their own side. This isn't a problem that cropped up with the rise of the supper turret. Nor is it a victim of the phantom any more than any other low PS small base ship without a turret was. Even though both of those punish it's inefficiency more, the real culprit comes from its own side.

The moment the B-Wing was released at just one point higher was a problem for the generics. The only reason that didn't doom the X-wing was because of the the comparison between B-Wing and X-wing named pilots. The B-Wing gets quite a bit for that one extra point, and, especially since rebel aces, has far more options to customize it. With a difference of one point, these ships were going to be compared and one was going to win out. Looking back since the start of regionals, it's been the B-wing.

After that, of course, there were two more ships that have been released that continue to push them out. The Z-95 has obviously been a great pairing for Falcons, and most people think it's a clear choice over 2Bs, and thus, certainly 2 Xs. Beyond that, I think a 20 point Green pilot really shows how outclassed the basic X is. For 20 points, you can get a Green that has PTL/Pred/Outmaneuver, a more resilient ship that can deal almost as much damage while having a far superior dial and movement options. For 1 more point it can be PS 5.

Some named pilots are keeping the X-wing on life support, certainly, but this isn't the larger competitive meta that have pushed the X-wing out, it's the new ships in their own fleet.

4 x Tempest + Title + ATC + Hull Upgrade

vs

4 x Rookie + Shield Upgrade

...

and the winner is?

Do you know it?

So the winner is unclear?

Because of what?

Because the Tie Advanced actually are what they were meant to in the first time ... an equal match to the X-Wings.

Tadaa!

Well not at all unclear actually.

The new Advanced will wipe the floor with X-Wings. Equal match? Err Nope!

They just have so many more options than the X-Wing in this matchup. They can evade when targeted by one only enemy, They can, and that's a big one, barrel roll out of arcs too. They evade the X-Wings fire more easily due to 3 green dice, and last, but not least, they have a very comparable firepower to an X-Wing now.

Yes they messed up the Advanced back in Wave 1, and yes it merited a buff. But X-Wings are in trouble right now, and i would pick 4 Tempest over 4 Rookies any day of the week after the new Upgrade cards come out.

Before that, i would have bet my money on the X-Wings because red dice>green dice. But now it's pretty clear that this advantage has gone, and everything else speaks for the Advanced. It's just as simple as that.

The game is very different from 40k. You get a codex army, you collect your army (albeit very expensive) and then you are done with it until they release a new codex years laters, and you will be able to use most of your stuff anyways.

Xwing is different, since many upgrades from early waves are still useful, and new will be too. You pay for variety, and there is a lot of variety right now. Just imagine a new player who want to play dash + predator and corran with R2D2 + FCS + Hull upgrade, you can see he is going to have to get ships that he maybe didn't even plan on playing.

We take this for granted, since most of us already have all the waves, but on the future the gap will be much bigger.

Of course, proxy is a solution, for a new player, but that still doesn't remove the barrier.

FFG can't rely on only new players buying basic X-wing expansions.

There's two types of people who play this game (not including Imperial only types) people who own X-Wings and people who will buy X-Wings.

All new players are likely to buy at least 1 X-Wing expansion for the sake of Wedge if nothing else. So yes you can in fact rely on new players to buy a basic X-wing. In fact you can count on any new player who again isn't Imp only to buy at least one.

You can't build your business model on relying for a huge amount of your product range to be picked up by only new players.

That's why they keep releasing new ships. Because as you point out the models don't wear out. It's the same thing with every other miniature game company out there. They keep making new stuff for people to buy, because they know there's very few sales that are replacements.

However X-Wing 2.0 doesn't change anything. Unless you believe that most of us are going to buy another 4-6 X-Wings for the sake of updated stats.

you tell him well over $500?

You mean like the $832 it would cost me to rebuild my 1750 point space marine army? That wasn't really even all that competitive, because it was too fluffy.

Resetting the game so everyone can start off with Wave 1 again isn't going to work. Not if they expect those of us who already own a bunch of stuff to buy it again. There's no way I'd ever even consider buying another X-Wing, Tie Fighter or A-Wing just for the sake the 2.0 stats.

Well no i agree with that. It would really have to be Cardboard bases, Cards and Dials for people that have already invested that much to be bought separately.

For new players those items would of course come in blisters with the actual miniatures.

Where is the problem?

It is actually a fairly similar set of circumstances, save for even safer in X-Wing, as there are even more crucial bits to the mini, dial and base plates.

Except that the cards are a major driver of ship purchases. Always have been.

Consider Stealth Device. If I want to run a 3x Elite Interceptor list with Stealth Device, what do I have to buy? 3 interceptors, or maybe an Interceptor and an Imperial Aces... and two Firesprays which I may or may not want. What does a new Scum player have to buy if he wants Push the Limit on anyone?

So if we go to a 2.0 which includes a lot of card errata (like to Push the Limit) and FFG releases a $15 pack with 80-100 upgrade cards, what does my Elite Interceptor list need to buy? Instead of $60 worth of Firespray, I buy $15 worth of cards. And that gap only gets bigger as you consider all the other things you might put on ships.

Basically, an upgrade card pack would take away cards as a motivating purchase for any and all ships which were released before it. For those of us in now who have everything already, or for completionists, it's easy to see it as zero impact. But especially for new players, or the Rebel-only player who's never been able to put a Stealth Device on anything, it would be pretty huge.

Just imagine a new player who want to play dash + predator and corran with R2D2 + FCS + Hull upgrade, you can see he is going to have to get ships that he maybe didn't even plan on playing.

How is that different than those of us who have been here for a while?

To make that list, I had to buy everything a new player would. If anything new players have it a bit easier, they can buy Imperial Aces to get PtL for their interceptors, rather than A-Wings. They can buy E-Wings to get Advanced Sensors rather than Shuttles.

So what are they going to do in 3 years time? Keep churning out early wave models? Making your business model based on getting new players usually ends in tears for everyone involved. How many of you are going to buy more of the ships that are already out? How many ships are you going to have to expect a new player to buy to get "fully involved"? There's a limit, and we're going to reach it sooner rather than later.

I know. And I don't know what the answer really is. That's why I said FFG has painted themselves into a corner - they've created a distribution model which will be very hard to move to a 2.0.

Look, aren´t we also at least partly discussing this from our own point of preference?

For people who like specialised fighters an X-Wing might be negligable. Maybe you prefer a designated flanker like the A-wing, or a tanky build with B-wings.

I do like B-wings, I fly them reasonably well. But I am horrifyingly bas with an A-wing to the point of hating it.

X-wings are my staple-fighter. I find them fun to fly and win at regular times. So, what more do I need?

I also think their plan for 'sustainable' sales is releasing things in waves and restocking waves periodically.

Unlike say GW where everything is available all year round , sometimes you have to really shop around or wait for a few weeks for a ship.

Its a steadier revenue income than allowing someone to get into the game, buy tons of stuff at once then never come back to it as they bit off more than they coudl chew.

It keeps a lot of people hanging in waiting for a restock of tie interceptors or whatever.

It is actually a fairly similar set of circumstances, save for even safer in X-Wing, as there are even more crucial bits to the mini, dial and base plates.

Except that the cards are a major driver of ship purchases. Always have been.

Consider Stealth Device. If I want to run a 3x Elite Interceptor list with Stealth Device, what do I have to buy? 3 interceptors, or maybe an Interceptor and an Imperial Aces... and two Firesprays which I may or may not want. What does a new Scum player have to buy if he wants Push the Limit on anyone?

So if we go to a 2.0 which includes a lot of card errata (like to Push the Limit) and FFG releases a $15 pack with 80-100 upgrade cards, what does my Elite Interceptor list need to buy? Instead of $60 worth of Firespray, I buy $15 worth of cards. And that gap only gets bigger as you consider all the other things you might put on ships.

Basically, an upgrade card pack would take away cards as a motivating purchase for any and all ships which were released before it. For those of us in now who have everything already, or for completionists, it's easy to see it as zero impact. But especially for new players, or the Rebel-only player who's never been able to put a Stealth Device on anything, it would be pretty huge.

I can vouch for this.

Im a recent EU convert. I bought a defender and an ewing for the cards more than the ships.

I wanted the astromech and i wanted predator and outmanouvre

Its clearly a model that works as people do buy ships they dont really need (or even want) for those upgrades.

Luckily i've got well into ewings and defenders lately so its not a real loss

So what are they going to do in 3 years time? Keep churning out early wave models? Making your business model based on getting new players usually ends in tears for everyone involved. How many of you are going to buy more of the ships that are already out? How many ships are you going to have to expect a new player to buy to get "fully involved"? There's a limit, and we're going to reach it sooner rather than later.

I know. And I don't know what the answer really is. That's why I said FFG has painted themselves into a corner - they've created a distribution model which will be very hard to move to a 2.0.

It's not impossible, if you move away from the cards themselves, which to be completely honest, are the biggest issue in that regard.

What if they made a Refit Sets for each faction? Price them at say... 20-30 bucks? Includes a bunch of spare tokens and stands, and has 2 of each Generic and 1 Named pilot for each ship with the revised rules. All new print runs of ships get adjusted rules and maybe better balanced upgrade card layouts so you don't have to buy things you don't want for the things you critically need.
Bam.
Older players get their fixes, newer players hopefully don't have to buy 3 Slave-1's so they can get a bunch of stealth devices.
Combine it with a new Core Set 2.0

I'm sorry but i really don't see why people are so dead set against it. Literally every other successful collectible game of ANY kind goes through this process.