please fix FFG!

FFG, please fix the fix that you fixed when you fixed the last fix.

Oh when will it end?

It will end when the game is balanced and all ships have a point that incites people to be played.

Why? Some ships should be played more and others should be more situational, IMHO.

Why do all ships have to be equal to all ships? That doesn't make any sense to me. Being a long time player of miniature games there have always been units that were weaker. But often they filled special roles. I've had some scouts that almost never saw action unless it was an 'epic' type game. Maarek Stele and bombers may be better suited for Epic than other fighters. The HWK may get torn up in a fighter only game. So what. It's the synergy of the entire squad that makes it more fun and building separate squads in bigger games.

Was the game EVER balanced? Should we have stopped there? Now a fix for the X-Wing? What will that break that we need a fix for next. Petty soon every ship will require one or more titles simply to play.

LOL, If you want all ships to be balanced then couldn't we pick the miniature we want and then use the same generic X-Wing card and dial. Now that's balance.

Being a long time player of miniature games there have always been units that were weaker. But often they filled special roles.

That's the problem. The X-wing doesn't have a useful role.

And most importantly, the reason why it is not getting used successfully at high level tournaments, is because it is a generalist ship with no particular niche role, but the fundamental math indicates that it is not even good at that.

You can't make xwings cheaper, as then you could field 5 at once. The cheaper astromech idea is a nice idea, not sure about 2point reduction, maybe only 1. I think it's more that b-wings were made too cheap rather than x-wings too expensive, but there's no way to make a ship more expensive so that won't happen.

That's the problem. The X-wing doesn't have a useful role.

Once again, I find myself inclined to strongly disagree with our resident mathemagician.

The x-wing's role depends on the pilot

Tarn + r7 = cheap and durable with a decent dial, hilarious versus 2 ship builds where attacks are limited.

Predator wedge = eviscerates high agility ships from academies to phantoms.

Biggs + anything = piss off your opponent (also great escort for low agility b-wings)

Etc

You can't make xwings cheaper, as then you could field 5 at once.

So?

I mean in wave 1 that may of been an issue, but today I don't see why 5 naked rookies would be an issue.

I am living how some people are basing a ships worth on what a mere 32 people did somewhere in Minnesota.

Tourneys are not the only games that matter. I determine a ships worth myself...after playing it myself....the supposed "meta" be damned. Makes me glad I don't play tourneys....IM less likely to dismiss ships outright based on the opinion of people I don't know.at events I haven't attended and care little.for.

It is not just the Top 32 cut at Worlds 2014.

It is also all of the wave 4 Nationals and Regionals results.

The wave 3 Regionals also bear out similar results.

And most importantly, the reason why it is not getting used successfully at high level tournaments, is because it is a generalist ship with no particular niche role, but the fundamental math indicates that it is not even good at that.

I think the discussion is inherently more about the competitive tournament aspect, but casual games are also more fun when the ships are well balanced. Right now, the only ships that are consistently represented at high level play with generic pilots are the TIE Fighter, Z-95, and to a slightly lesser extent the B-wing. This does trickle down into casual play. If you play enough games and get to a similar caliber as the top-tier players at Worlds, then you will probably see what we are talking about even for casual play. The X-wing, especially the generics, just don't carry their weight compared to better alternatives.

I posted a little higher that i don't use them a lot anymore because i have a lot less fun with the game when i know the odds are massively against me. The same is the case while i know that my list is a lot better than the opponent's. I don't want to win or lose easily. I want to have a game that is as balanced as possible, so that i can feel like having achieved a victory by skill (and luck of course).

The X-Wing is still a lot better off than the Advanced was before they announced the Raider, but it is nonetheless not in a great spot right now. And that just feels very wrong for the most iconic ship giving the game its name.

You can't make xwings cheaper, as then you could field 5 at once.

So?I mean in wave 1 that may of been an issue, but today I don't see why 5 naked rookies would be an issue.

It was even a mistake back in W1 because Tie swarms were a lot better than X-Wings then!

The x-wing's role depends on the pilot

Tarn + r7 = cheap and durable with a decent dial, hilarious versus 2 ship builds where attacks are limited.

Predator wedge = eviscerates high agility ships from academies to phantoms.

Biggs + anything = piss off your opponent (also great escort for low agility b-wings)

Etc

Those are all named pilots that are used more for their abilities than the ship they are in. MJ was referring to the generic X-Wing.

There's no reason to take a generic x-wing when you can take a B-wing which is far more resilient and arguably more maneuverable. Well, unless it's just impossible to squeeze one more point out of your list.

There are some decent astromechs that can give a generic X-wing a role, but it comes at a tough cost.

I'm not sure that five X-wings in one list is a problem that maybe it would have been in the past with ships like the phantom, Fat Turrets, and upgrades like predator out there.

That's the problem. The X-wing doesn't have a useful role.

Once again, I find myself inclined to strongly disagree with our resident mathemagician.

What role do the generics X-wings have that they are effective at?

What role do the generics X-wings have that they are effective at?

Well, I highly doubt the game would sell anywhere near as well if it was called Z-95 Headhunter The Miniatures Game.

Putting aside how good or bad the X-Wing is.

This is IMO an example of a bad policy on FFG's part. They should be willing to errata the cards to fix some of these issues. I think the Advanced fix is great, better then the refit for A-Wings in fact.

But IMO it would be better to pull the bandage off and fix stuff, rather then just pile on more band-aids. Because the system they have now is just going lead to pilot and upgrade bloat.

You can't make xwings cheaper, as then you could field 5 at once.

So?I mean in wave 1 that may of been an issue, but today I don't see why 5 naked rookies would be an issue.

Exactly. Even if you could field 5 rookies with R2 units that would be a strong list, but i am not sure it would even be top of the meta.

It was even a mistake back in W1 because Tie swarms were a lot better than X-Wings then!

They might not be one of the top builds, but I think they'd be pretty powerful. 15 attack dice, 25 hit points at agility 2, nothing to laugh at. Some lists wouldn't care about the one extra x-wing, but many would.

The problem I'm having here is that I agree with both sides; the named X-Wing pilots are just fine, and often have great synergy with the upgrade bar or squadmates, or both, while the generics don't do well enough at anything to warrant bringing them instead of a B-Wing or two Headhunters. Maybe it's because I tend to play Imperial, but I always always always take more bodies when rounding out a list. The generic X-Wing works well enough, but in the context of what else is available I'm disinclined to take it.

That said, as others have mentioned, once we start looking at the unique pilot abilities, we start to get more defined roles that the ship can occupy. Tarn Mison is still the unique pilot with the lowest pilot skill, and with the R7 combo he makes for one of the best blockers in the game (at least, compared to other unique pilots). No one else is as brutal a team player as VI Wes, and Hobbie plus R3-A2 can ruin plenty of opponent list synergy. These are all things that are quite a bit harder to weigh in the context of jousting, and so don't really warrant discussion when talking about numerical efficiency in a ship's statline.

Is the X-Wing overcosted or mediocre for its stats and abilities? Yes.

Do the unique pilots have some of the best abilities in the game? Yes!

What is the discussion, at this point?

The x-wing's role depends on the pilot

Tarn + r7 = cheap and durable with a decent dial, hilarious versus 2 ship builds where attacks are limited.

Predator wedge = eviscerates high agility ships from academies to phantoms.

Biggs + anything = piss off your opponent (also great escort for low agility b-wings)

Etc

Those are all named pilots that are used more for their abilities than the ship they are in. MJ was referring to the generic X-Wing.

There's no reason to take a generic x-wing when you can take a B-wing which is far more resilient and arguably more maneuverable. Well, unless it's just impossible to squeeze one more point out of your list.

There are some decent astromechs that can give a generic X-wing a role, but it comes at a tough cost.

I'm not sure that five X-wings in one list is a problem that maybe it would have been in the past with ships like the phantom, Fat Turrets, and upgrades like predator out there.

In terms of conflating pilot with ship, they're one and the same in this game sincevyou can't divorce one from the other.

Take the x-wing for what it is, a solid all rounder bearing awesome characters. Its got more than enough viable offerings across several point costs to merit viability.

Unlike the poor bomber, which is basically scimatar or bust unless youre built for jonus or are certifiably insane (rhymer)

The problem with the X-wing is that it's jack of all trades fighter, both in fluff and in the game. It tries to be a space supriority fighter, bomber, interceptor, and escort all in one. The problem is it's not excellent at any of these things, though it does pretty well. According to the fluff it's "an excellent balance of speed, maneuverability and firepower", which basically is what it is in this game. It's not supposed to be the best. It's supposed to be good at everything.

I get what you're saying except its NOT good at everything, its only good at 1 or 2 things and mediocre at others but I do think you're right by saying the problem lies in it being the jack of all trades. The game have evolved to a point where being decent at everything is not good enough. In a standard game where you're limited to 100pts you want to bring ships that specializes in at least one thing, whether it be staying power, repositioning, 360 arcs, board control or blocking ability, but if it doesn't then you want them to be cheap so you can have more. The X-wing is neither cheap nor does it excel at anything. Its just okay. In pre-wave4 meta this wasn't an issue as there wasn't a lot in the XWMG food chain that can chew it up but now there are Phantoms, Defenders, Decimators, HLC Dash, Fat Falcons and upcoming auto thrusting Interceptors.

To be fair others are also right in pointing out that X-wings have some great pilots with great abilities (namely Tarn, Biggs, Luke, Wedge, Wes) but they still suffer somewhat from the X-wing's mediocre stats. Players bring them mostly for their abilities, not so much because the X-wing is a great ship. In my opinion FFG need only improve 2 aspects of the X-wing to make it a good dogfighter once again without incurring extra cost; its need more staying power either is terms of more HP or better defensive rolls and it needs some kind of repositioning capability (boost preferred).

I also like how FFG improved on the Y-wing by making it more versatile with cards like BTL-A4 and Bomb Loadout. Likewise I'd like to see that done to the X-wing giving it more utility to operate in different roles depending on the need of the player.

Putting aside how good or bad the X-Wing is.

This is IMO an example of a bad policy on FFG's part. They should be willing to errata the cards to fix some of these issues. I think the Advanced fix is great, better then the refit for A-Wings in fact.

But IMO it would be better to pull the bandage off and fix stuff, rather then just pile on more band-aids. Because the system they have now is just going lead to pilot and upgrade bloat.

So you suggest recall campaings to fix the cards?

Prior to wave 5 release I played in a tournament and Flew

Wedge

-????

Biggs

-????

Jan ors

-HWK title

-blaster turret

Bandit squadron

-????

I defeated a phantom, soontir, and defender list

and took a corran and fat Han down to no corran and 1 Hit point left on Han.

X-wings still have their place. Pilots mater. Look at the lambda everyone had written it off for a long time and now I cant get away from people using them. You never know what new upgrade card will change the dynamic of one ship. Lastly the game is called X-wing and the title ship will always have a place whether its as strong as that new shiny ship you just bought well, how good of a pilot are you really. Get back in your X-wing soldier you need more training,

Also my new shiny toy is Y-wings with engine upgrade and range two ion with salm, he has walked a few ships off the board.

Maybe its time for the ....

Rogue Squadron Pilot card

PS5 or PS6? But at least one EPT.

New Rogue Squadron only droids: If you get stress, you get one evade.

Would this make you Rebels happy?

Putting aside how good or bad the X-Wing is.

This is IMO an example of a bad policy on FFG's part. They should be willing to errata the cards to fix some of these issues. I think the Advanced fix is great, better then the refit for A-Wings in fact.

But IMO it would be better to pull the bandage off and fix stuff, rather then just pile on more band-aids. Because the system they have now is just going lead to pilot and upgrade bloat.

I don't mind that though. More possible upgrade options, lead to a few more variety of options. Customization of ships is quite fun. And leads to some more creative options.

The Refit is only half of the A-wing fix, much like the X1 is only half of the Advanced fix.

So you suggest recall campaings to fix the cards?

At this point, sorta.

X-Wing when James made it, is not the same thing it is today. He made it as a beer and pretzels game people played on their kitchen table, not a game that draws 200+ people to a world championship.

At some point they're going to either need to fix the core issues with the game or else we'll be buried in upgrade bloat. Maybe they'll be able to fix most issues without that happening. But look at wave 4 and you still see ships that need to be fixed, like the generic E-Wing.

I am living how some people are basing a ships worth on what a mere 32 people did somewhere in Minnesota.

Tourneys are not the only games that matter. I determine a ships worth myself...after playing it myself....the supposed "meta" be damned. Makes me glad I don't play tourneys....IM less likely to dismiss ships outright based on the opinion of people I don't know.at events I haven't attended and care little.for.

It is not just the Top 32 cut at Worlds 2014.

It is also all of the wave 4 Nationals and Regionals results.

The wave 3 Regionals also bear out similar results.

And most importantly, the reason why it is not getting used successfully at high level tournaments, is because it is a generalist ship with no particular niche role, but the fundamental math indicates that it is not even good at that.

I think the discussion is inherently more about the competitive tournament aspect, but casual games are also more fun when the ships are well balanced. Right now, the only ships that are consistently represented at high level play with generic pilots are the TIE Fighter, Z-95, and to a slightly lesser extent the B-wing. This does trickle down into casual play. If you play enough games and get to a similar caliber as the top-tier players at Worlds, then you will probably see what we are talking about even for casual play. The X-wing, especially the generics, just don't carry their weight compared to better alternatives.

I'll defer to your math (vile scorcery that it is). It just gets to me that so many on here pass judgment on a ship based soley on events that most of us have never played in and have little to no effect on our games at home...there is slot of groupthink and not enough innovation and independent thinking. But I guess that's just how stuff rolls on the interwebz. Makes me glad I don't participate in these "premier" events...makes it easier to not fall into the groupthink trap...and I actually see lists and ships that vary...xwings included.

Personal bias is awesome!

We are pattern seeking animals it's what kept our ape ancestors alive allowing them to see predators approaching, it's hard wired into us and so instead of taking things as random events we intrinsically link them in our minds.

I could say soontir always dies because I've seen him roll five or six blanks more than once, this is my own experience but not every one else's.

If we are talking x-wing generics then sure they arnt that strong, but they still have some of the best pilots around, wedge is outright good and Biggs is broken.

The x-wing's role depends on the pilot

Tarn + r7 = cheap and durable with a decent dial, hilarious versus 2 ship builds where attacks are limited.

Predator wedge = eviscerates high agility ships from academies to phantoms.

Biggs + anything = piss off your opponent (also great escort for low agility b-wings)

Etc

Those are all named pilots that are used more for their abilities than the ship they are in. MJ was referring to the generic X-Wing.

There's no reason to take a generic x-wing when you can take a B-wing which is far more resilient and arguably more maneuverable. Well, unless it's just impossible to squeeze one more point out of your list.

There are some decent astromechs that can give a generic X-wing a role, but it comes at a tough cost.

I'm not sure that five X-wings in one list is a problem that maybe it would have been in the past with ships like the phantom, Fat Turrets, and upgrades like predator out there.

If the thread is about generics, then it should read "the poor rookie pilot is the worst pilot in the game." I'd be inclined to agree there.

In terms of conflating pilot with ship, they're one and the same in this game sincevyou can't divorce one from the other.

Take the x-wing for what it is, a solid all rounder bearing awesome characters. Its got more than enough viable offerings across several point costs to merit viability.

Unlike the poor bomber, which is basically scimatar or bust unless youre built for jonus or are certifiably insane (rhymer)

It seemed you were responding to Majorjuggler's post about the role of the X-wing, which referred specifically to generics. The OP doesn't address the idea of "role" at all.

I'm of the opinion that you can absolutely separate the notion of generics from named as to whether a ship is viable. The bottom line for me is that named and generics are practically different species even when in the same ship because abilities can transcend the base cost of the ship (Vessery, Horn, Soontir etc) or can break them, even in good ships (Ten, Ibby). Saying Interceptors are currently viable because Soontir is, just doesn't work. Tarn requires a 25 point build to work well, and while he is nasty, I'm not sure he's really better than a Blue with FCS.

With regard to the X-Wing in particular, I don't think it's *the worst* as the OP states, but it should be the stock ship of the rebellion like the TIE is for the Empire. Right now, that's just not happening.

Putting aside how good or bad the X-Wing is.

This is IMO an example of a bad policy on FFG's part. They should be willing to errata the cards to fix some of these issues. I think the Advanced fix is great, better then the refit for A-Wings in fact.

But IMO it would be better to pull the bandage off and fix stuff, rather then just pile on more band-aids. Because the system they have now is just going lead to pilot and upgrade bloat.

WI've always thought that the A-Wing fix was supposed to work the same way the Advanced fix works; should they have made it a single card.

But had they made it a single card think of all the uproar of PS1 Prototype Pilots receiving EPT's.

Even though Missiles have a 2pt tax you still have the option of taking 2 EPTs thanks to the A-Wing Fix being 2 separate cards.

As for bloating due to bandages once every (small) ship has a non-unique Title upgrade to their name is the time that they should start looking to errata'ing points.