My group was talking about this the other day. In the game's current state (Wave 6 on does not exist yet) the X-wing is over priced. Why would you spend 21 points on an x-wing when 22 points gets you 3 more shields, barrel roll, cannon slot, system slot, and a (potential) crew slot!?! All that for only the cost of 1 evade die, no astromech, and a slightly more limited dial. (This is debatable because of the barrel roll).

No doubt, the x-wing will need to be updated after all of this crazy stuff hits.

With 22 points you'll only get a lot of useful empty slots :-D

I use to play Empire and i find the X's one of the bests ships in the game.

My group was talking about this the other day. In the game's current state (Wave 6 on does not exist yet) the X-wing is over priced. Why would you spend 21 points on an x-wing when 22 points gets you 3 more shields, barrel roll, cannon slot, system slot, and a (potential) crew slot!?! All that for only the cost of 1 evade die, no astromech, and a slightly more limited dial. (This is debatable because of the barrel roll).

No doubt, the x-wing will need to be updated after all of this crazy stuff hits.

I use to play Empire and i find the X's one of the bests ships in the game.

Double post, sorry

Well I will say this much....as of late i dont really see the Imperial players crying so much about stuff being unfair....I mean we have been holding our own since wave one with what we got....and we are still going strong....and im loving how now that Rebel players and Imperial players are developing a Hatfield and McCoy style grudge towards one another in the forums.....Good...good....let the hate flow through you.

Tie fighter is harder or just as easy to kill with 3 agi and Evade, but at almost half the cost.

Tie Interceptor is the same as a tie, but it can and will boost out of arcs. I think the Interceptor is harder to kill, but the Alpha is 3 points less

Tie Bomber, has 6 hull and 2 agi, slightly better than the Xwing.

Tie Phantom is just much harder to kill

Tie Defender 6hull/shield and 3 agi, harder to kill

Tie advanced 5 hull and 3 agi with an evade, harder to kill

Shuttle 10hull/shield harder to kill, but maybe easier to chase

Firespray 10 hull and 2 agi, harder to kill

Bwing 8 hull and 1 agi. Close, but the Bwing's last a little longer

Decimator 16 hull and 0 agi, harder to kill

Awings, 4 hull and 3 agi with evade, harder to kill and slightly cheaper

Ewings 5 hull, but with 3agi and evade, harder to kill

Ywings 8 hull 1 agi, slightly harder, but the Ywings turrets make it less apt to have to position for arc

YT1300, 13 hull and 1 agi, harder to kill

YT2400 10 hull 2 agi, harder to kill

That leaves the Z95 and the HWK. The Z95 is very similar to an Xwing, but it's almost half the cost. The Z95 sacrifices an attack die and a hull and the Astromech, but it easier to kill. The HWK and the Xwing are very similar 5 hull and 2 agi. Basically they are just as easy to kill, but the HWK can use it's turret to fly to the side of ships and not worry about keeping ships.

TIE fighter has only two attack, and can be one-shot with 3 attack.

TIE interceptor can also be one shot with 3 attack.

TIE bomber is less manoeuvrable, has only 2 attack and because it's HP is all hull is more vulnerable to crits.

TIE phantom is much more expensive but with less HP.

TIE defender is half again as expensive, and less manoeuvrable except for the k-turn.

TIE advanced only has 2 attack and has long been considered the worst ship in the game.

Shuttle is the least manoeuvrable ship in the game.

.... Etc etc.

See, I too can cherrypick individual parts of a ship's stats in order to make any ship seem worse than absolutely any other one.

Totally fair point. And the Xwing isn't all bad. I'm only trying to point out that it is one of the easiest ships to kill, and because it has a relatively big gun, it will and should be a priority target. Therefore, it's usually the first ship taken off the table and for it's cost, that's a tough pill to swallow. I think that all of the alternate options I listed in my post are better. I think choices are even when they are hard choices. I think if you compare an HLC Blue with a Tala Z95 vs 2 Rookie Xwings, it's not a hard choice. At least for me, I'll take the HLC B and Z everytime. When the choices between Xwings and other ships aren't difficult, the Xwing becomes a bad ship. When the choices are hard to make, then all the ships involved in the decision are on equal footing. The choice between an DoomShuttle and 2 Academy Tie Fighters isn't an easy one. They are both solid choices, and usually it comes down to the rest of the list.

Difficult list choices make the game good. I just don't think it's difficult to find better options than Xwings these days. A year ago, the Xwing made for some hard choices. But, with the ships and upgrades released in 2014, it's easy to not choose an Xwing for your list.

It has it's merits sure, but anything it does, some other ship does better or nearly as well for less cost.

Maybe I could be wrong here, but if you have

Vader (adv pilot)

you don't get

Doom vader on the field?

No, you can't field a pilot and a crew member if they have the same name. You can't have a Falcon flown by Chewie with Chewie as a crew, nor could it be the pimpiest boat in the galaxy with Lando running a Sabbac game in the lounge while simultaneously piloting the ship rather dashingly. Jan Ors to double down on herself and provide evades as well as extra attacks in the same turn while Kyle becomes focused to relieve stress and pass that lightning jedi focus of his to someone else. Even brash young master Skywalker and his trusty astromech can't defend a Corvette where he is the gunner and where R2-D2 is fixing shields and blowing gaskets. While Han and his old buddy Han would love to pair up and shoot first and not bother asking any questions it is unfortunately not allowed by the ru*pew pew pew* boring conversation anyway. Well, he just might pull it off. He's a scoundrel.

I may have gone slightly overboard.

Well I will say this much....as of late i dont really see the Imperial players crying so much about stuff being unfair....I mean we have been holding our own since wave one with what we got....and we are still going strong....and im loving how now that Rebel players and Imperial players are developing a Hatfield and McCoy style grudge towards one another in the forums.....Good...good....let the hate flow through you.

The empire's greatest ****-up just became incredibly viable, so it would be incredibly hypocritical for us to complain

It has it's merits sure, but anything it does, some other ship does better or nearly as well for less cost.

Strictly not true

There is nothing in the game resembling Biggs, very few as annoyingly durable as Tarn + R7, very few as terrifying as Wedge, and again nothing resembling Wes. Not to mention Luke's a pain in the ass for 2 dice ships to crack, which is not a luxury B-wings and the like can claim when they start dropping shields to focus fire even at range 3.

The X-wing is a bit of a glass cannon, but it boasts a very good selection of viable pilots. The trick Ive found (at least with Wedge) is coming in from a distance and blowing holes in things piece-meal. Soon enough, your opponents learn not to occupy the same space as where his arc might end up even with Whisper even cloaked.

Well I will say this much....as of late i dont really see the Imperial players crying so much about stuff being unfair....I mean we have been holding our own since wave one with what we got....and we are still going strong....and im loving how now that Rebel players and Imperial players are developing a Hatfield and McCoy style grudge towards one another in the forums.....Good...good....let the hate flow through you.

The empire's greatest ****-up just became incredibly viable, so it would be incredibly hypocritical for us to complain

It has it's merits sure, but anything it does, some other ship does better or nearly as well for less cost.

Strictly not true

There is nothing in the game resembling Biggs, very few as annoyingly durable as Tarn + R7, very few as terrifying as Wedge, and again nothing resembling Wes. Not to mention Luke's a pain in the ass for 2 dice ships to crack, which is not a luxury B-wings and the like can claim when they start dropping shields to focus fire even at range 3.

The X-wing is a bit of a glass cannon, but it boasts a very good selection of viable pilots. The trick Ive found (at least with Wedge) is coming in from a distance and blowing holes in things piece-meal. Soon enough, your opponents learn not to occupy the same space as where his arc might end up even with Whisper even cloaked.

I would say that Jax very much resembles Wes.

Personally I think the X-Wing is fine and, going a bit further...

I thought that with the A-Wing fix, Advance TIE Fix and Auto-Thruster for the Interceptor the game would finally back in balance. I'm happy, maybe I'm wrong but it just appears that way to me.

Since there will always be a worse ship even if none of them are as bad as the old advanced however my vote goes to the tie bomber it's rarely used as it is, has a horrible jousting ratio, and it's minor role of ordinance vehicle is still hindered by ordinance still not being worthwhile points investment. The few named pilots are nothing to write home about either. The xwing still regularly see play in torunaments even if it's majority there named pilots and the defender is a bit over costed but still a cheap canon base for the empire. I would say thats my order of bad ships right now bomber, xwing then defender. And non of those ships can really be called bad though.

Well I will say this much....as of late i dont really see the Imperial players crying so much about stuff being unfair....I mean we have been holding our own since wave one with what we got....and we are still going strong....and im loving how now that Rebel players and Imperial players are developing a Hatfield and McCoy style grudge towards one another in the forums.....Good...good....let the hate flow through you.

The empire's greatest ****-up just became incredibly viable, so it would be incredibly hypocritical for us to complain

It has it's merits sure, but anything it does, some other ship does better or nearly as well for less cost.

Strictly not true

There is nothing in the game resembling Biggs, very few as annoyingly durable as Tarn + R7, very few as terrifying as Wedge, and again nothing resembling Wes. Not to mention Luke's a pain in the ass for 2 dice ships to crack, which is not a luxury B-wings and the like can claim when they start dropping shields to focus fire even at range 3.

The X-wing is a bit of a glass cannon, but it boasts a very good selection of viable pilots. The trick Ive found (at least with Wedge) is coming in from a distance and blowing holes in things piece-meal. Soon enough, your opponents learn not to occupy the same space as where his arc might end up even with Whisper even cloaked.

You aren't seperating the pilot abilities from the ship. I agree that the XWing pilots have some of the best abilities in the game. But the ship itself is falling behind. Tarn Wedge and Biggs all have great abilities. That's not in question. How many Xwings were in top 32 lists at worlds. Very few. Because the ship itself is a weak point, even with some of the pilot abilities.

I'm not sure FFG can or even should fix it. I'm just saying that it's a shame that the game's namesake is a weak ship these days.

Well I will say this much....as of late i dont really see the Imperial players crying so much about stuff being unfair....I mean we have been holding our own since wave one with what we got....and we are still going strong....and im loving how now that Rebel players and Imperial players are developing a Hatfield and McCoy style grudge towards one another in the forums.....Good...good....let the hate flow through you.

The empire's greatest ****-up just became incredibly viable, so it would be incredibly hypocritical for us to complain

It has it's merits sure, but anything it does, some other ship does better or nearly as well for less cost.

Strictly not true

There is nothing in the game resembling Biggs, very few as annoyingly durable as Tarn + R7, very few as terrifying as Wedge, and again nothing resembling Wes. Not to mention Luke's a pain in the ass for 2 dice ships to crack, which is not a luxury B-wings and the like can claim when they start dropping shields to focus fire even at range 3.

The X-wing is a bit of a glass cannon, but it boasts a very good selection of viable pilots. The trick Ive found (at least with Wedge) is coming in from a distance and blowing holes in things piece-meal. Soon enough, your opponents learn not to occupy the same space as where his arc might end up even with Whisper even cloaked.

I would say that Jax very much resembles Wes.

Only they aren't even close

Jax denies focus/evade acquisition or use while he's within range 1 of the enemy (works with multiple enemies)

Wes swats off focus/evade/blue target-locks after resolving his attack against the target (no access to gunner that I know of)

The triggers are wholly unrelated and work towards the strength of their respective ships (the interceptor being a fast as lightning knife-fighter, the X-wing preforming better at range where its solid all-round stats work to its advantage and basic dial does not hinder it...both cases being surprisingly related to how the firing arc grows the further away the target is)

My group was talking about this the other day. In the game's current state (Wave 6 on does not exist yet) the X-wing is over priced. Why would you spend 21 points on an x-wing when 22 points gets you 3 more shields, barrel roll, cannon slot, system slot, and a (potential) crew slot!?! All that for only the cost of 1 evade die, no astromech, and a slightly more limited dial. (This is debatable because of the barrel roll).

No doubt, the x-wing will need to be updated after all of this crazy stuff hits.

With 22 points you'll only get a lot of useful empty slots :-D

I use to play Empire and i find the X's one of the bests ships in the game.

Double post, sorry

I play all factions, although a little more often Rebels but just for the main reason that my opponents like to play Empire more.

I like to experiment with builds and please believe me when i say i am really honestly happy that they fixed the Advanced. And yes i think the 2 announced cards are a great solution and bring the advanced to the level it belings to, and in a way that makes total sense game- and fluffwise.

Now i am really looking forward to make Vader or even other builds shine!

But if we look at the X-Wing now, it has very very little to offer for rebel lists, except some decent pilot talents (well essentially Biggs only at a more competitive level). And in comparison to the new Advanced, it will really have nothing at all over that ship anymore. It's only advantage at a comparable price level was the X-Wings better firepower which was nothing to sneeze at, but an advantage now lost. The ships still sit at a comparable price level and now the Advanced is a lot tankier, has about the same, if not better firepower, is more maneuvrable and already has one great pilot talent in Vader. The spoiled pilot looks by no means bad either, and Maarek might actually see some table time. Plus we still have some unspoiled pilots to come.

So what is it what makes the X-Wing frightening now? I don't see anything really. Astromechs are okay, but they just can't make up for all the rest of the mediocrity. Unlike some other members that posted a bit higher in this thread, i am also convinced that the solution to make the X-Wing more viable again, can not lie in the astromech slot. If you add more astromechs, they will add some diversity, yes. And they might give some pilot a good combo with his ability. But they will not be able to add to the power level of the ship, except you make an astromech that is so good that it becomes mandatory for all X-Wings. And that would be a real shame because then all the other Astromechs become useless!

I hardly use X-Wings in any of my lists anymore, except when i really know my opponent is also flying a thematic or very casual list, when i feel like testing my skills against superior odds, or when i just want to teach somebody the game.

I actually blame that fact on the Phantom mainly. I just don't have any sort of fun with the game when i fly X-Wings against Phantoms. There is absolutely nothing you can do against them with an X-Wing. Your options are so limited that skill is just not enough to change this fact. I have tried slowrolling, formations, dividing firing arcs, etc. Nothing works. They can arc dodge what they want, when they want, and the very little fire an X-Wing gets on them is just not enough to bring a Phantom down. I have also been on both sides of the table concerning that. Killing X-Wings with Phantoms is like slaughtering baby seals most of the time, really except when you encounter PS 10 or 11, but even then it is not a very big problem most of the time.

My group was talking about this the other day. In the game's current state (Wave 6 on does not exist yet) the X-wing is over priced. Why would you spend 21 points on an x-wing when 22 points gets you 3 more shields, barrel roll, cannon slot, system slot, and a (potential) crew slot!?! All that for only the cost of 1 evade die, no astromech, and a slightly more limited dial. (This is debatable because of the barrel roll).

No doubt, the x-wing will need to be updated after all of this crazy stuff hits.

With 22 points you'll only get a lot of useful empty slots :-D

I use to play Empire and i find the X's one of the bests ships in the game.

Double post, sorry

I am not an Imperial player nor a Rebel player, nor will i be a Scum player.

I play all factions, although a little more often Rebels but just for the main reason that my opponents like to play Empire more.

I like to experiment with builds and please believe me when i say i am really honestly happy that they fixed the Advanced. And yes i think the 2 announced cards are a great solution and bring the advanced to the level it belings to, and in a way that makes total sense game- and fluffwise.

Now i am really looking forward to make Vader or even other builds shine!

But if we look at the X-Wing now, it has very very little to offer for rebel lists, except some decent pilot talents (well essentially Biggs only at a more competitive level). And in comparison to the new Advanced, it will really have nothing at all over that ship anymore. It's only advantage at a comparable price level was the X-Wings better firepower which was nothing to sneeze at, but an advantage now lost. The ships still sit at a comparable price level and now the Advanced is a lot tankier, has about the same, if not better firepower, is more maneuvrable and already has one great pilot talent in Vader. The spoiled pilot looks by no means bad either, and Maarek might actually see some table time. Plus we still have some unspoiled pilots to come.

So what is it what makes the X-Wing frightening now? I don't see anything really. Astromechs are okay, but they just can't make up for all the rest of the mediocrity.

I hardly use X-Wings in any of my lists anymore, except when i really know my opponent is also flying a thematic or very casual list, when i feel like testing my skills against superior odds, or when i just want to teach somebody the game.

I actually blame that fact on the Phantom mainly. I just don't have any sort of fun with the game when i fly X-Wings against Phantoms. There is absolutely nothing you can do against them with an X-Wing. Your options are so limited that skill is just not enough to change this fact. I have tried slowrolling, formations, dividing firing arcs, etc. Nothing works. They can arc dodge what they want, when they want, and the very little fire an X-Wing gets on them is just not enough to bring a Phantom down. I have also been on both sides of the table concerning that. Killing X-Wings with Phantoms is like slaughtering baby seals most of the time, really except when you encounter PS 10 or 11, but even then it is not a very big problem most of the time.

Exactly, things like Wes and Wedge pumped up with VI, get that one chance to bring Whisper down, and if they don't they usually don't get a 2nd.

If the x-wing is the worst ship in the game (which its not) the game is in pretty good shape then that a completely playable ship like the x-wing with its solid stats and great pilots is "the worst".

If the bomber gets maybe a bomber specific ordinance fix then I don't think there is any glaring "bad ships"

I'm only trying to point out that it is one of the easiest ships to kill, and because it has a relatively big gun, it will and should be a priority target. Therefore, it's usually the first ship taken off the table and for it's cost, that's a tough pill to swallow. I think that all of the alternate options I listed in my post are better. I think choices are even when they are hard choices. I think if you compare an HLC Blue with a Tala Z95 vs 2 Rookie Xwings, it's not a hard choice. At least for me, I'll take the HLC B and Z everytime. When the choices between Xwings and other ships aren't difficult, the Xwing becomes a bad ship. When the choices are hard to make, then all the ships involved in the decision are on equal footing. The choice between an DoomShuttle and 2 Academy Tie Fighters isn't an easy one. They are both solid choices, and usually it comes down to the rest of the list.

Difficult list choices make the game good. I just don't think it's difficult to find better options than Xwings these days. A year ago, the Xwing made for some hard choices. But, with the ships and upgrades released in 2014, it's easy to not choose an Xwing for your list.

It has it's merits sure, but anything it does, some other ship does better or nearly as well for less cost.

I find they're a bit flimsy when they have to fight against large ships, but in dogfights there is nothing wrong with them at all. And if people don't think they are a threat then they'll underestimate them every time

X-wings are great, they are the reliable workhorse of the pack.

It doesn´t have to be the best. Everytime one ship gets an upgrade the forum is filled with complaints about OP and ´now this ship is too weak to use´ (No offense meant at the OP by the way)

I think, with the X-wing this is not the case. It can still be the reliable core of a Rebel squad, just like the Y-wing will be for a Villainy squad and the TIE-fighter and maybe soon the TIE Advanced can be for an Imperial squad.

All these ships are reliable, are slightly forgiving for rookie mistakes (unlike an Interceptor), and you can still fiddle enough in variation without getting drowned in too many options. It is a viable addition if you do not plan on buying every release and still gives you a fighting chance in a tournament.

All that for the nice medium price range of 21 - 29 points.

With great pilots. Great Astromechs, some fun torps and some hefty modifications.

X-wings will remain a part of the game long after some of the other, fancier ships are taken out of service due to an new overpowered release.

The problem with the X-wing is that it's jack of all trades fighter, both in fluff and in the game. It tries to be a space supriority fighter, bomber, interceptor, and escort all in one. The problem is it's not excellent at any of these things, though it does pretty well. According to the fluff it's "an excellent balance of speed, maneuverability and firepower", which basically is what it is in this game. It's not supposed to be the best. It's supposed to be good at everything.

Xwing was fine there were enough of then represented in the top 32 at worlds. There were several other ships with no representation like the bomber. None of which are bad ships. After wave 6 and imperial epic I'd say most ships are balanced. Even if rebel large ships are still dominating torunaments.

The only xwing fix I could even see right now is a 0 cost astromech that lowered the cost of torpedoes by 2. Thus improving torpedoes and making geberic xwings better

A title similar to tie advanced to reduce astromech cost by 2.

This allows rookies to take r2 astro for free. Done.

I find they're a bit flimsy when they have to fight against large ships, but in dogfights there is nothing wrong with them at all. And if people don't think they are a threat then they'll underestimate them every time

It badly lacks mobility, so it is not really okay in a dogfight by any means. X-Wings don't have boost nor Barrel roll. Hence they get shot at a huge lot while not being able to shoot back. You can give them boost, but then it costs too much vs a ship that naturally has it.

The problem with the X-wing is that it's jack of all trades fighter, both in fluff and in the game. It tries to be a space supriority fighter, bomber, interceptor, and escort all in one. The problem is it's not excellent at any of these things, though it does pretty well. According to the fluff it's "an excellent balance of speed, maneuverability and firepower", which basically is what it is in this game. It's not supposed to be the best. It's supposed to be good at everything.

And it's not. The B-Wing is slightly better at this, and has natural access to barrel roll (and good upgrade options). And now the Advanced (again i absolutely have nothing against it's rework, i like it!) is really better at anything than an X-Wing. So you can't call it Jack of all trades either. Except of course Jack of all trades means its just bad at everything. But then i m absolutely not okay with that.

I am living how some people are basing a ships worth on what a mere 32 people did somewhere in Minnesota.

Tourneys are not the only games that matter. I determine a ships worth myself...after playing it myself....the supposed "meta" be damned. Makes me glad I don't play tourneys....IM less likely to dismiss ships outright based on the opinion of people I don't know.at events I haven't attended and care little.for.

X-wings are:

Solid

Reliable

versatile.

just bloody fine.

I am living how some people are basing a ships worth on what a mere 32 people did somewhere in Minnesota.

Tourneys are not the only games that matter. I determine a ships worth myself...after playing it myself....the supposed "meta" be damned. Makes me glad I don't play tourneys....IM less likely to dismiss ships outright based on the opinion of people I don't know.at events I haven't attended and care little.for.

It is not just the Top 32 cut at Worlds 2014.

It is also all of the wave 4 Nationals and Regionals results.

The wave 3 Regionals also bear out similar results.

And most importantly, the reason why it is not getting used successfully at high level tournaments, is because it is a generalist ship with no particular niche role, but the fundamental math indicates that it is not even good at that.

I think the discussion is inherently more about the competitive tournament aspect, but casual games are also more fun when the ships are well balanced. Right now, the only ships that are consistently represented at high level play with generic pilots are the TIE Fighter, Z-95, and to a slightly lesser extent the B-wing. This does trickle down into casual play. If you play enough games and get to a similar caliber as the top-tier players at Worlds, then you will probably see what we are talking about even for casual play. The X-wing, especially the generics, just don't carry their weight compared to better alternatives.