?? Really ? The X wings got their love and additions a long time before we even knew the advanced would be fixed, or the A wings were touched upon. They are very solid ships and hardly the worst.

The problem with the E-wing is that a naked one is nowhere near as good (or durable) as a naked Defender.

And it's not supposed to be. Let there be diversity!

I think saying 'but the named pilots are good' is missing the point. Nobody claimed the Advanced was the best ship in the game because of Vader's ability.

The problem with the E-wing is that a naked one is nowhere near as good (or durable) as a naked Defender.

And it's not supposed to be. Let there be diversity!

I'm all for diversity, but no one is running unnamed ewings. That would be the opposite of diversity.

I'm all for diversity, but no one is running unnamed ewings. That would be the opposite of diversity.

I'm sorry, but it's starting to sound a lot like "all ships must be equally viable" and I just don't agree with that, because to me that would make for a very bland game.

I think saying 'but the named pilots are good' is missing the point. Nobody claimed the Advanced was the best ship in the game because of Vader's ability.

No it really isn't

In the Advance's case, the base stats for cost were (are, technically) so bad that even Vader couldn't reliably bring it out of its dominant position as biggest pos in the game. Meanwhile, poor Maarek sobbed in a corner wondering why his ability couldn't have been slapped onto something more reasonably priced, or at least something with 3 dice. To make matters worse, the only things it could carry were missiles (widely known as incredibly competitive...) and modifications not counting the pilots' epts. To reiterate, that's a garbage stat to cost ratio (objectively worse than the X), 2 rarely used upgrade slots (not counting EU), 1 half viable pilot, and 1 pity case. Not a whole lot to work with there.

X-wings and E-wings, by contrast, have a much better base profile, access to far more useful upgrades and (in the X's case) a vast pilot selection. With a free system upgrade dragging Maarek from his corner and four new pilots on the horizon, the Advance is finally catching up.

In this game, a ship is far more than the base profile + dial. All the options have to be considered when valuating its viability. The reason the Advance merited a fix was because it was of such low quality in every regard that not even Vader could shine through.

I'm all for diversity, but no one is running unnamed ewings. That would be the opposite of diversity.

I'm sorry, but it's starting to sound a lot like "all ships must be equally viable" and I just don't agree with that, because to me that would make for a very bland game.

How???? If everything is different but equally viable you have the greatest potential for excitement and diversity! It certainly wouldn't make it bland when you can make a list with literally any ships and know it can be a fair fight.

On the subject of the X-wing - i think a "rogue squadron" generic (maybe PS 6) with an EPT would help revive it a bit, but personally i'd like T-65b: 1 point, X-wing only, your action bar gains Barrel roll.. Helps them arc dodge and stay relevant at a low price

I think A-Wings are still worse than X-Wings, even with the Aces fix.

I think A-Wings are still worse than X-Wings, even with the Aces fix.

Inclined to agree, apart from a few cases (Jake is sexy, gemmer is solid for his refit cost)

I do think that its more of a meta issue, though. A-wings have can even worse time against turrets than interceptors, IMO, because 2 dice can't even get through 3po + evade. Auto thrusters might help, but its not doing much for the cost to damage inefficiency.

So yeah, more of an issue with turrets and their silliness than the ship imo. The only exception is the outrider, because I'd say Jake is even worse news for Dash than Echo. When maneuvers matter, the A-wing is your ship

I think A-Wings are still worse than X-Wings, even with the Aces fix.

Inclined to agree, apart from a few cases (Jake is sexy, gemmer is solid for his refit cost)

I do think that its more of a meta issue, though. A-wings have can even worse time against turrets than interceptors, IMO, because 2 dice can't even get through 3po + evade. Auto thrusters might help, but its not doing much for the cost to damage inefficiency

I agree that a wings are probably still the rebels weakest link right now.

However the OPs original point was that x wings are not particularly good. I don't think I've seen anyone call them unplayable but it is concerning for the game state that the namesake is not viable and is generally considered strictly inferior to the B wing.

Personally I'd like to see them gain boost. Thematically it would be the equivalent of the pilot opening and closing the foils for speed increases (any one else play the Rogue squadron games). One of the old arguments for buffing the advanced was that Vader was a sith lord and unplayable. Wedge Antilles is the only pilot to survive both death star attacks. He blew up the second, the feats he achieved as the leader of Rogue squadron go well beyond that. The current meta favors high Ps and he still barely shows up. Most of that goes for Luke as well. Again, x wings are nowhere near as bad as the advanced was, but they are toward the bottom of the current situation.

I think A-Wings are still worse than X-Wings, even with the Aces fix.

Inclined to agree, apart from a few cases (Jake is sexy, gemmer is solid for his refit cost)

I do think that its more of a meta issue, though. A-wings have can even worse time against turrets than interceptors, IMO, because 2 dice can't even get through 3po + evade. Auto thrusters might help, but its not doing much for the cost to damage inefficiency

I agree that a wings are probably still the rebels weakest link right now.

However the OPs original point was that x wings are not particularly good. I don't think I've seen anyone call them unplayable but it is concerning for the game state that the namesake is not viable and is generally considered strictly inferior to the B wing.

Well, that's the problem with the OP's and a few other poster's claim and it's already been covered.

The X-wing is not strictly inferior to the B-wing. The Rookie Pilot is far more situational than the Blue Squadron Pilot.

Only time I preferred it is as a wing-man for Cracken, since it can maneuver the same without stressing and thus denying itself the free action.

During their interview on the Scum and Villainy podcast, the developers (specifically Alex Davy) basically said the X-Wing will be getting an upgrade sometime in the future.

http://teamcovenant.com/scumandvillainy/2014/11/26/scum-villainy-interview-with-x-wings-designers/

The whole interview is great and worth listening to. The part on the X-wing starts just before the 38 minute mark.

Alex's exact words were "like the A-wing and like the Y-wing, the X-wIng needs a little boost, in the form of an upgrade card or something, like a title card or whatever. But we can't really talk about it..."

He then says it needs "a little nudge" and then says it may be something like Autothrusters or what they were planning for the Tie Advanced.

I'm all for diversity, but no one is running unnamed ewings. That would be the opposite of diversity.

I'm sorry, but it's starting to sound a lot like "all ships must be equally viable" and I just don't agree with that, because to me that would make for a very bland game.

All ships aren't created equal.

That said,

2 x Knave, AC, R2

Etahn, AC, R7-T1

Isn't an inherently bad squad. Is it an optimal squad? Nah, but not bad either.

I think A-Wings are still worse than X-Wings, even with the Aces fix.

Listen, we already blew the forums up with that particular topic and got at least one thread locked, lets not do this again. ;P

Look, if the X-Wing is the worst ship in its own game, then I think we've done a great job of balancing, 'cause it's a bloody good ship.

What role does the Xwing do well? As a strong attack ship, the Bwing is just as good and more durable. It struggles to keep up with all of the hypermobile ships flying around these days (Interceptors, Phantoms, Awings, etc). So many ships can now reposition in some way after they move by either rolling or boosting. The Xwing can't do any repositioning without paying 4 more points for Engine or 2 points and stress for EH. The Xwings struggle to keep up with the fast ships. It's not a particularly durable ship. 5 shield/hull backed by 2 agility frankly doesn't last long enough. It's one of the easiest ships to destroy.

Tie fighter is harder or just as easy to kill with 3 agi and Evade, but at almost half the cost

Tie Interceptor is the same as a tie, but it can and will boost out of arcs. I think the Interceptor is harder to kill, but the Alpha is 3 points less

Tie Bomber, has 6 hull and 2 agi, slightly better than the Xwing.

Tie Phantom is just much harder to kill

Tie Defender 6hull/shield and 3 agi, harder to kill

Tie advanced 5 hull and 3 agi with an evade, harder to kill

Shuttle 10hull/shield harder to kill, but maybe easier to chase

Firespray 10 hull and 2 agi, harder to kill

Bwing 8 hull and 1 agi. Close, but the Bwing's last a little longer

Decimator 16 hull and 0 agi, harder to kill

Awings, 4 hull and 3 agi with evade, harder to kill and slightly cheaper

Ewings 5 hull, but with 3agi and evade, harder to kill

Ywings 8 hull 1 agi, slightly harder, but the Ywings turrets make it less apt to have to position for arc

YT1300, 13 hull and 1 agi, harder to kill

YT2400 10 hull 2 agi, harder to kill

That leaves the Z95 and the HWK. The Z95 is very similar to an Xwing, but it's almost half the cost. The Z95 sacrifices an attack die and a hull and the Astromech, but it easier to kill. The HWK and the Xwing are very similar 5 hull and 2 agi. Basically they are just as easy to kill, but the HWK can use it's turret to fly to the side of ships and not worry about keeping ships in it's front arc to attack, that just helps.

Their are some super offensive ships these days. HLC 2400 turret, 4 attack phantoms, Expose Decimators, insta crit Advanceds, HLC Bwings, etc. The game's offensive ships have grown in strength rapidly. But the poor Xwing is still too easy to kill.

If I am going up against a list with Xwings, I'm going to target the Xwing first. It's got a good main gun, but I can kill it fast. And I could kill Z95s, but Z95 guns are less a threat. It's just too easy to destroy the Xwing.

Here's a test, 2 Rookie pilot xwings are 42 points. Would you rather have those or:

Chewbacca 42 points

Blue w/HLC + Tala 42 points

3x Tala 39 points

Fringer wOutrider + HLC

2x Prototype w/Refit and 1 Bandit

I think ALL of those are much better options than 2 Rookie Xwings.

Sure, the Xwing pilots all have great abilities, but if they die first, so what. You won't get to use them. And given how good their abilities are, and how easy they are to kill, they should die first.

They need some sort of movement or defensive boost. Even an offensive boost wouldn't be terrible, but it just makes them bigger targets, and they'll just be that much more certain to be killed first and fast.

It's supposed to be the backbone of Rebel fleets, but it's become the weak point.

What ship is hands down worse than the Xwing? It's hard to find one. The Awing? The Prototype is an excellent blocker, and serves as a good fast flanker. The Z95? Sure, it's worse, but it's cost reflects that. Tie Advanced? Not once the Raider comes out.

You can win with them, but it's harder than with some other ships.

For me, the focus in the game (at least Wave 4 meta) has become hyper maneuverability vs tanky turret.... The Xwing is neither of those things and is suffering at being average at both maneuvering and survivability.

A LOT is changing now: Dash, Decimator, S&V and now the advanced..... Any of these factors might push the game in a different direction (ie action economy vs stress, or tight vs loose formations) any of which might better suit the Xwing and we may see a resurgence (or maybe not).

Perfect game balance may be desired but is impossible, competitive people will always gravitate to the thing that gives them the slightest edge and will probably never love a middle of the road platform like the Xwing. Casual players will tend to what is fun and will accept an ok ship if it meets their fun quotient, and considering how customisable the Xwing is I'm sure they'll find something they love (Wedge, Luke, etc).

If there is a tweak to be had, I think it will lie in the astromech slot... As the side effects help other middling ships (the YWing and the EWing).

Overall I trust FFG, as they ve done awesome with the game in general and the latest announcement specifically.

Lastly, let's allow the imp players to enjoy their new shiny for a few seconds before we storm the gates of FFG demanding Xwing satisfaction!

I'm sorry, but it's starting to sound a lot like "all ships must be equally viable" and I just don't agree with that, because to me that would make for a very bland game.

All ships should be equally viable. But not all ships should fit into all squad compositions. I should be able to come up a plan for how I want my battle to run, then figure out what kinds of ships would make that plan work best.

Right now, though, we're seeing that only 2-4 ships work well as "centerpiece" ships, and those are being outfit as best as possible, with the rest of the points being taken by "filler".

It should be the case that I can have a 4 course X-Wing meal. Instead, as of wave 4, I'm having burritos and chips because that's the only thing on the menu that's really satisfying. Wave 6 and the Raider will hopefully change this.

To counter hypermobility without adding to it, I wonder about this:

Title, X-Wing only

Any ship that is range 1-3, that was in arc when this ship target locked it, may be fired on, even if it is outside of arc.

This actually works better for low PS ships, adds a neat mechanic, and doesn't add to the problem of "EVERYONE GETS A BOOST".

Downside: probably too complicated.

wait you dar-néd rebel scumsss.

What about the Tie Bomber? And the Lambda shuttle's pilots? Or the Tie Defender?

(I have used all three of these ships and am very proficient with them. Do not suggest I do not have enough actual play/use epxerience).

Tie fighter is harder or just as easy to kill with 3 agi and Evade, but at almost half the cost.

Tie Interceptor is the same as a tie, but it can and will boost out of arcs. I think the Interceptor is harder to kill, but the Alpha is 3 points less

Tie Bomber, has 6 hull and 2 agi, slightly better than the Xwing.

Tie Phantom is just much harder to kill

Tie Defender 6hull/shield and 3 agi, harder to kill

Tie advanced 5 hull and 3 agi with an evade, harder to kill

Shuttle 10hull/shield harder to kill, but maybe easier to chase

Firespray 10 hull and 2 agi, harder to kill

Bwing 8 hull and 1 agi. Close, but the Bwing's last a little longer

Decimator 16 hull and 0 agi, harder to kill

Awings, 4 hull and 3 agi with evade, harder to kill and slightly cheaper

Ewings 5 hull, but with 3agi and evade, harder to kill

Ywings 8 hull 1 agi, slightly harder, but the Ywings turrets make it less apt to have to position for arc

YT1300, 13 hull and 1 agi, harder to kill

YT2400 10 hull 2 agi, harder to kill

That leaves the Z95 and the HWK. The Z95 is very similar to an Xwing, but it's almost half the cost. The Z95 sacrifices an attack die and a hull and the Astromech, but it easier to kill. The HWK and the Xwing are very similar 5 hull and 2 agi. Basically they are just as easy to kill, but the HWK can use it's turret to fly to the side of ships and not worry about keeping ships.

TIE fighter has only two attack, and can be one-shot with 3 attack.

TIE interceptor can also be one shot with 3 attack.

TIE bomber is less manoeuvrable, has only 2 attack and because it's HP is all hull is more vulnerable to crits.

TIE phantom is much more expensive but with less HP.

TIE defender is half again as expensive, and less manoeuvrable except for the k-turn.

TIE advanced only has 2 attack and has long been considered the worst ship in the game.

Shuttle is the least manoeuvrable ship in the game.

.... Etc etc.

See, I too can cherrypick individual parts of a ship's stats in order to make any ship seem worse than absolutely any other one.

please fix FFG!

FFG, please fix the fix that you fixed when you fixed the last fix.

Oh when will it end?

It will end when the game is balanced and all ships have a point that incites people to be played. Right now Generic X-Wings are gone. Named pilots are present, but they don't do well in a competitive environment at the moment for reasons i explained in my last post that you probably didn't bother reading, but you deemed necessary to quote a fragment of a sentence just to get off some witty nonsense of yours.

?? Really ? The X wings got their love and additions a long time before we even knew the advanced would be fixed, or the A wings were touched upon. They are very solid ships and hardly the worst.

With all the astromechs they got, they just can pick one at a time and that's a big investment. Still it does not fix the inherent problems of the ship (maneuvrability, durability, utility/price)

It was a wave 1 ship and even then Tie Fighters were more competitive than the X-Wing. They priced them at 21 so nobody could take 5. Okay? So would you think 5 naked X-Wings would be such a competitive squad nowadays? I don't even think so!

A quick answer to the title of this post....."clears throat.....steps up to the mic......BULLSHIVOSKY!!!!!" that is all....."walks off stage"

My group was talking about this the other day. In the game's current state (Wave 6 on does not exist yet) the X-wing is over priced. Why would you spend 21 points on an x-wing when 22 points gets you 3 more shields, barrel roll, cannon slot, system slot, and a (potential) crew slot!?! All that for only the cost of 1 evade die, no astromech, and a slightly more limited dial. (This is debatable because of the barrel roll).

No doubt, the x-wing will need to be updated after all of this crazy stuff hits.

With 22 points you'll only get a lot of useful empty slots :-D

I use to play Empire and i find the X's one of the bests ships in the game.