TIE/Adv fix thread saw ordinance brought up again. So here's the question: FFG comes to you and solicits your advice to rebuild ordinance from the ground up. Anything goes, from a new die, no need for target lock, don't discard, actual ordinance tokens, a countermeasures system, whatever.

What do you offer?

The only things to bear in mind are that you don't want to make primary attacks obsolete.

Don't require the target lock be spent to make the attack is the first thing that comes to my mind. At least then you could still use the target lock to reroll.

Or maybe one regular damage can't be evaded?

Personally, I think they should obsolete primary attacks. If you think about it, an X-Wing game is probably only a minute or two of real time, ships die quickly in dog fights. Also, how many shots does the average mini get in a game? X-Wings look to carry 6 torpedoes, and I daresay that is close to the high end of shots for a ship in a 100 match.

If I were making ordnance I'd make it more like cannons and turrets. Probably try to make the three a spectrum, Turrets least conditional, least powerful, Cannons moderately conditional and similarly powerful, and Ordnance highly conditional and highly powerful. You could even make a further distinction here between torpedoes and missiles, making one even tougher to land then the other. Craft would likely still make use of their primary attack when those conditions couldn't be met, but otherwise would rely on their Ordnance.

I feel like this would reflect better how things felt in the computer games, at least. If I was flying a TIE Bomber, I wasn't using those blasters unless I had no other option. Less so with an X-Wing or Defender, sure, but generally if you could make a shot with Ordnance, it was the way to go.

I doubt this idea is reconcilable in the current game, as its a massive divergence, but it is probably the direction I'd have aimed for.

Obvious solution is the move the depletion of the target lock to after the dice have been modified (so you always spend your target lock when firing, but still get the benefit of the re-roll if needed) - but that's a bit bland.

Considering Armada comes with a number of dice for different range bands and purposes, I would favour using those for update missiles and torpedos.

I would suggest the use of "blue dice" (or similar) for missiles (no blanks, only focus, hits and crits) and "black dice" (or similar) for torpedos (blanks are there, but some faces inflict mutiple hits on a single result) ... (details there)

This would help to distinguish these weapons for each other and give them their own identy, instead current situation in which a torpedo/missile are synonymous in all respects but which ships can equip them

I don't see it being that bad if you had two shots for each piece of ordnance. It would keep ships with ordnance higher priority targets.

Thought I read in a thread somewhere someone had an idea for an added ordnance modification. When using a torpedo or missile, you'd discard the modification card instead of the ordnance. If it was cheap enough, it might be worth it.

I would suggest the use of "blue dice" (or similar) for missiles (no blanks, only focus, hits and crits) and "black dice" (or similar) for torpedos (blanks are there, but some faces inflict mutiple hits on a single result) ... (details there)
This would help to distinguish these weapons for each other and give them their own identy, instead current situation in which a torpedo/missile are synonymous in all respects but which ships can equip them

I like this one but it would be difficult to add in retroactively. There's no way to do it without requiring us all to buy a new product(even if it's just the dice themselves). They'd also need to update the starters.

Fix: Ordnance is not discarded when used, but flipped face down once fired. As an action, you can "rearm" the ordnance, flipping it faceup to be used again. Otherwise, the rules need not be changed nor the costs adjusted. Basically, like cannons, they are high-end secondary weapons, only now they are not significantly overpriced. Cannons retain their fire every round utility, ordnance has more limits. Munitions Failsafe errata'd so that when the ordnance does not hit, it is not flipped over.

Fix: Ordnance is not discarded when used, but flipped face down once fired. As an action, you can "rearm" the ordnance, flipping it faceup to be used again. Otherwise, the rules need not be changed nor the costs adjusted. Basically, like cannons, they are high-end secondary weapons, only now they are not significantly overpriced. Cannons retain their fire every round utility, ordnance has more limits. Munitions Failsafe errata'd so that when the ordnance does not hit, it is not flipped over.

Part of my actual issue with ordnance as it stands is the action inefficiency. It takes a lot of actions to make one good shot as you have to spend the lock to fire it, and thus need to have a focus, or some other dice correction, in order to get get damage out of it, and this only exacerbates this issue.

Fix: Ordnance is not discarded when used, but flipped face down once fired. As an action, you can "rearm" the ordnance, flipping it faceup to be used again. Otherwise, the rules need not be changed nor the costs adjusted. Basically, like cannons, they are high-end secondary weapons, only now they are not significantly overpriced. Cannons retain their fire every round utility, ordnance has more limits. Munitions Failsafe errata'd so that when the ordnance does not hit, it is not flipped over.

I really don't like this, as it's replenishing bulky munitions out of thin air - sorry, what I like about this game is that it's plausible (within limits ofc) and not magical.

I would rather prefer a Munition Pod Modification at a cost of 2-3 Pts, working like:

Thought I read in a thread somewhere someone had an idea for an added ordnance modification. When using a torpedo or missile, you'd discard the modification card instead of the ordnance. If it was cheap enough, it might be worth it.

This gives a plausible explanation for the double load while also clearly limiting it.

But isn't that what MF is effectively doing? And why isn't MF solving the problem? Mhm...

Two options:

Ordnance ignore shields. The death star exhaust was ray shielded, hence the need for proton torpedoes. We don't see ordnance in the movies beyond that instance, so who is to say they don't ignore shields. The inquisitor in rebels fires a tracking device missile that is not blocked by shields.

The examples I cite give credance to the idea. Nothing about the ordnance cards would have to change. In fact, I believe more options would have to be considered because of this- expert handling, captain Kagi, etc would get more use. All that is needed is a faq update.

The second option: a new ordnance die with more hit options, double hit, double crit, singles, etc. Once again, the cards themselves remain unchanged. The downside is forcing players to buy new dice sets/or a particular expansion.

Fix: Ordnance is not discarded when used, but flipped face down once fired. As an action, you can "rearm" the ordnance, flipping it faceup to be used again. Otherwise, the rules need not be changed nor the costs adjusted. Basically, like cannons, they are high-end secondary weapons, only now they are not significantly overpriced. Cannons retain their fire every round utility, ordnance has more limits. Munitions Failsafe errata'd so that when the ordnance does not hit, it is not flipped over.

I really don't like this, as it's replenishing bulky munitions out of thin air - sorry, what I like about this game is that it's plausible (within limits ofc) and not magical.

I don't think it's a matter of the ammo magically replenishing. More like the launchers loading/arming another set of missiles.

Sigh. Guys. Ordinance can't, and will NEVER be fixed via extra or unlimited shots. Ordinance's problems are that they're inaccurate due to action inefficiency as stated by Damoel, and due to the TL problem between varying PS.

Think about every game you've played with Ordinance. Would not discarding the card really have ever made a difference? Would being able to TL again the next turn and firing that Proton Torpedo have actually worked the second time? Specifically taking about the R2-R3 (most of it) Ordinance, would you be able to get a 2nd shot, or would you and your opponent have closed to R1 or maybe even k turned, thus denying your action for the TL to fire?

2nd, and more minor, but still a problem imo, is that on High PS pilots you tend to have already loaded them down with other upgrades, and sinking more points into them isn't worth it for a inaccurate one shot.
Which turns us to low or mid PS. But you often find yourself out of range for your TL against higher PS. and again, Back into R1 the next turn, preventing you from firing that 4 pt missile.

I'd prefer that when you declare a T/L, when you actually "take" the action it moves to the beginning of the combat phase. Allows you to still check for range, but drastically increases the likelihood for lower PS to be able to gain it.

My 2nd idea, and this is way weirder, is that all ordinance fires at PS 13. On the same page is reversing it: Pretty much at the start of the combat phase every ship with ordinance gets to "fire" it, but the shot is resolved at PS 0, still allowing lower PS ships to get shots off even if they get popped before they come up.

I toyed with making ordinance not excluding you from making your primary, but that would turn Corran into a unholy Monster. Nix on that.

Basically i advocate moving ordinance into a tool for lower PS pilots to use. Too much caffeine and its getting hard to structure my posts.

If I were to go back and redesign torpedoes/missiles from the ground up I would probably make them a 2 dice attack that says "If this attack hits, cancel all dice results and the defender takes 4 damage" It would reflect that torpedoes were more commonly used against large slow ships and could be dodged by nimble star fighters. If they hit they would be pretty devastating or deadly for many ships.

The other option would be to just lower point costs across the board.

I think they kind of missed an opportunity with Munitions Failsafe. I think it should have read: "You may discard this card in place of a secondary weapon when instructed to do so by a card or effect" That way it would work even if the torpedo hit. Plus you could use it against Munitions failure crits.

auto damage... the missiles & torpedoes do the "Attack value" damage automatically.AND reduce cost of all by one.

Same rules as now but no range restriction.

A friend suggested that the TL requirement be changed to "you must have a TL to fire this weapon" but not spend the TL when doing so.

Then after rolling dice you can either discard the TL or the card (if you have no TL at that point because you used it to make the attack better, then you are forced to discard the card).

Failsafe would act as a proxy card to discard, so you could fire the weapon a second time even if you spent the TL.

Good ideas to patch current ordinance have been said, but with the request to start fresh...

Torpedoes are launched as an action and only "hits" when you take a target lock. Only one ordinance is expended per TL.

Example:

pre game: Ordinance is placed face down next to the ship its equipped to(hidden info). This example has a rookie with a proton torpedo.

Turn 1 rookie x-wing moves and takes the torpedo action. the proton torpedo card is turned face up next to ship card (ordinance is otherwise face down).

Turn 2 rookie moves and takes a TL action on a tie fighter. That tie fighter is then attacked, expending the target lock unless stated otherwise. Normal stuff is done, attack vs agi is rolled. Durning the turn 2 attack phase the rookie can attack as normal.

Passing TL becomes awesome and rerolls are great, buffing rebel Y wings as ordinance carriers. G Imperial tie bombers hve the one pilot that lets others reroll two dice, he is awesome. Scum have some sweet options as well.

Missiles could be done in reverse. TL then missile action. Favoring PTL and predator/ faster ships like a-wings.

I would give it a much narrower front arc for ordinance less than 30 degrees and then make ordinance have a maximum number as per the ship in the movie or where ever it is from. X-Wings carry 6 but fire two at a time so it can have a max of 3 shots of the torpedos in a game.

So for an example of an X-Wing if you buy the proton torpedo upgrade card for 4 points you get three shots with it in a narrower than primary weapon arc.

Simple.

This way you have to manouver your ship better in order to use them.

I'm assuming that the OP is suggesting this would involve FFG doing complete reprints of all the cards, meaning no backwards compatibility with current ordinance is necessary. I'm also assuming that, where possible, backwards compatibility would be preferable.

1 - What is the role of ordinance?

1a - Torpedos are anti-installation and anti-ship, not intended for use againt fighters or even small transports and other lesser vehicles (anything on a Large or smaller base, essentially).

1b - Missiles are intended for use againt fighters and smaller transports and other lesser vehicles (again, anything on a Large or smaller base).

1c - Bombs are mostly intended for use in similar situations as Torpedoes, but with a few exceptions, such as the Seismic and Proximity bombs, which are designed for use in fighter combat (see the use of the former by Slave I in AotC, and the latter are mines intended to interdict fighter movement through a zone of space).

2 - How do you make ordinance mechanically more true to those roles?

2a - Torpedos would gain damage bonuses against Huge ships, while Large and Small ships would gain significant defensive bonuses againt them. For instance, I'd have a standing rule that Torpedos do double damage and double any other effects (Ion tokens, Stress tokens, etc.) against Huge ships, while Large ships gain 2 Agility and Small ships gain 4 Agility when defending against Torpedo attacks.

2b - MIssiles would gain a damage bonus against Small and Large ships, while Huge ships would treat them as normal. I'd probably have Small and Large ships suffer 2 damage for every hit rolled, which would allow defense against missiles still to matter a lot, while making them much more lethal against targets that they do hit. This would include the 1 damage from Ion Pulse Missiles translating into 2 effective damage.

2c - Bombs are difficult. I'd probably just say that they have unlimited uses. Multiple bomb slots would be for variety rather than repeatability.

3 - What impact would those changes be expected to have?

3a - Torpedos would be largely restricted to Epic play. Is this a problem? Not really. That's what they're for, and that's where you'd expect them to show up. As FFG releases more Huge ships, and as more scenarios (both home-grown and official) develop around destroying installations of one kind or another, Torpedos would become more useful. However, you shouldn't bring a Proton Torpedo payload when dogfighting. That's not what they're for, and they're no good at it.

3b - Missiles would become a powerful weapon, if they hit. They'd still have some accuracy issues under certain circumstances, but when they do hit the target will feel it. They'd be especially useful for taking on low-Agility high-HP targets like Decimators, YT-1300s, B-Wings, and Y-Wings (things that should really be weak against missiles anyway).

3c - Bombs would be a lot more attractive if they could be used over and over again. I know I'd take a second look at them. Mechanically, though, they'd operate the same as they do now, which really isn't that bad. The big weakness that Bombs have is their price for being one-shot weapons, and that price would suddenly become a lot more worthwhile if you could reuse them. The only potential issue I see would be spamming Proximity Mines, which cost an action to deploy so really you're sacrificing something every time you drop one. They're only 3 Attack, so it's hardly an overpowered hit. I might adjust them to allow people to target them, with a 0 Agility and 1 Hull. This would not be relevant to the other bombs, though, since they don't stick around after they're dropped.

Treat it kind of like the ion cannon. If they hit, ignore the dice result and then do damage equal to a set value. Of course they would still be discarded. That way they are more like a real missile. f a missile hits it should wreck.

A good fix would have been to have concussion, proton and homing go out to range 4, and for the big bangs like cluster, rockets and the adv protons to stay at range 1-2 as they're actually pretty good just situational (maybe avd could be 1 pts less).

Rhymers needs to have been much less expensive, Rhymer+Adv+Marksmanship is brutal but almost half your list.

Similar to some ideas I would make each missile/ torpedo a set number of shots. When you equip a card you would get a number of ordinance tokens. Each time you fire your ordinance you lose one token.

Having ordinance that can be fired several times on a ship with FCS could be deadly.

Add the Range bonus/penalty to cannons and turrets which will make them better at close range and allow only torpedoes and missiles to ignore range bonus/penalties. That will nerf turrets and cannons at range but makes them better at range 1. However it will make torpedoes and missiles better at range 3 than HLC and Ion cannons.

On hit: calculate damage by canceling all defense dice.

You still have the same chance to hit, but if you do, you hit a _lot_ harder (unless both players flub their rolls!). And it makes munitions different from all the other weapons on the game, without introducing whole new mechanics.

The designers could, in theory, FAQ this one tomorrow.

Make it all much cheaper. Ordnance attacks aren't bad, they just cost too much to justify their benefit over the primary. Even as they are I bet 1pt Flechette Torpedoes, 2pt Proton Torpedoes and 3pt Advanced Proton Torpedoes would be popular.

I also think not expending the target lock to fire is a good idea: you keep the lock when you shoot. Still takes two turns to set up an F-TL shot (as it should, that's depth) but you don't spend the target lock when you shoot, a-la Homing Missiles. This'd also increase the value of removing target locks with Countermeasures and Expert Handling, but not the the point of autoinclusion.

On hit: calculate damage by canceling all defense dice.

You still have the same chance to hit, but if you do, you hit a _lot_ harder (unless both players flub their rolls!). And it makes munitions different from all the other weapons on the game, without introducing whole new mechanics.

The designers could, in theory, FAQ this one tomorrow.

I love the idea but it would make APT utterly terrifying.