Engine upgrade does give the defender another unique ability: boost after k-turn

Tycho and Biggs make that ability not-so-unique.

However it would be certainly useful allowing the defender to boost before revealing its maneuver (sort of a pseudo-advanced sensors). A title could give the defender the boost ability, and the additional ability to perform it before revealing its maneuver, if he wishes. That would fix many of its speed and maneuvering issues while still flying different to other ships.

engine upgrade

I was thinking more for the onyx, perhaps also add an ept slot.

I could get behind the Onyx having an EPT slot in a similar fashion to the PS3 Green Squadron Pilot - at the moment there's almost zero incentive to take an Onyx over a Delta.

Engine upgrade does give the defender another unique ability: boost after k-turn

Tycho and Biggs make that ability not-so-unique.

...Biggs?

Tycho could only pull that particular combo off once however (unless he stops adding stress and starts shedding it instead). The Defender could do following EVERY K-turn. Or Barrel Roll. Or Target Lock. Or Focus. Et cetera.

A better example would probably be Black Squadron Wingman... which also (as pointed out earlier in the thread) helps Defenders shed any stress inflicted upon them.

...Biggs?

Ops, I meant Porkins, but a brainfart made me write Biggs.

I do not believe that every ship (not pilot) must be top tier tournament caliber. However, every ship should be competitive. What I mean by this is that you should be able to take a given ship and play with it without it being such a handicap that winning ceases to be a good possibility. Yes, a top tier list will (and should) have an advantage. TIEs and Z-95s are going to be very efficient, strong ships. But I should be able to take my a-wings out and not have it be a blowout. I think by and large the game meets this goal.

This. +11

Everyone knows that you can throw an EU on a Defender, why do people keep suggesting that?

Its a band aid and it just compounds the fact that the Tie-D is overpriced.

Hence the white k-turn, something no other ship in the game currently has. The Defender is probably the best straight-line dogfighter in the game. It is not an arc-dodger.

Anything with barrel roll can be an arc-dodger. Ergo, the defender is an arc-dodger. Granted, its not as good at it as a ship with both barrel-roll + boost.

Frankly, I am not sure why people have trouble removing stress on the Defender. I have never encountered any difficulties and even if it did become an issue, a BSP w/ wingman is only 16 pts and due to similarities in dials, very easy to keep within range 2 of a defender.

So personally I would never give up the cannon slot for more greens. Seems a terrible trade to me. Especially considering how awesome ion cannon or HLC are on the defender...

Edit: actually, I think (personal feeling here, could be wrong) that the reason the defender seems over-costed is because its cannon slot makes it so strong. I mean, it is a far better cannon platform than either the b-wing (because its faster but can slow roll too) or firespray (because small base + barrel roll means much more control over positioning). I don't know if calculating 'jousing efficiency' with either ion cannon or HLC included would change things much, but on table, they definitely add a lot of value to its performance. At least for me...

This. +11

Everyone knows that you can throw an EU on a Defender, why do people keep suggesting that?

Its a band aid and it just compounds the fact that the Tie-D is overpriced.

In your opinion.

People are suggesting Engine Upgrade because other people are erroneously suggesting that the Defender needs the Boost action to be a competitive option (hint - it doesn't - just like it doesn't need more greens in it's dial, or bombs, or some kind of vaguely-worded title card.). If your piloting ability is so poor that you really need the crutch of a Boost action to lean on, then pay the extra points for it, just like anyone else would with any other ship where it's not a native ability.

I've actually never ran the EU on a Defender. Its just too much points. I don't find I need it to make the ship work, but I do think it would help.

If your piloting ability is so poor that you really need the crutch of a Boost action to lean on, then pay the extra points for it, just like anyone else would with any other ship where it's not a native ability.

If it were a crutch then it would simply be a correctional ability, boost actually significantly expands any ship's manuevering capabilities (which is why you pay a full 4 points for it.) To be honest if offered 4 points of free upgrades on a Defender I'd take Shield Upgrade: hit points are worth much more on a 3 agility ship.

If your piloting ability is so poor that you really need the crutch of a Boost action to lean on, then pay the extra points for it, just like anyone else would with any other ship where it's not a native ability.

If it were a crutch then it would simply be a correctional ability, boost actually significantly expands any ship's manuevering capabilities (which is why you pay a full 4 points for it.) To be honest if offered 4 points of free upgrades on a Defender I'd take Shield Upgrade: hit points are worth much more on a 3 agility ship.

I've been playing around with both recently, and I'm liking the Shield Upgrade more than I thought. If you use the Engine to avoid damage, you're using an action, and you might be losing shots yourself. The Shield lets you keep actions for boosting attacks (or defense) and so you end up doing more damage. Often by doing more damage earlier you save yourself hit points in the long run by taking out guns that could hurt you. Another consideration is that against big turret ships in the meta right now, Dash is the only one that Engine really helps you against, in my opinion. The others can shoot you no matter what anyway, and if you've got an HLC, you don't want to be closer, so Boost isn't helping. It can, however, let you break away better, maybe getting out of range on a disengage move.

Every time I've put a shield upgrade on a Defender they suddenly feel they are worth their points.

If only shield upgrade was free.

Here is my idea - I call it Well Supported.

At the beginning of combat you can discard your a stress token.

But wait! There's More!

You also get a PS 4 TIE Fighter

I think this upgrade should cost about 16 points

Here is the best part - this isn't a what if. You can already do it.

Black Squadron + Wingman

Moved from different thread:

Right now your basing your whole logic on Fluff, because it's not any faster than any other ship in the game.

And why not? The game is based on fluff.

The Bomber is lumbering along, can't do a hard 1 even if it tried on a good day while holding on to a Star Destroyer's Shield Generator pylon. A turn 2 is red as well. Turn 3 is white because its payload isn't affecting the course of the ship as much. It can't go 5 straight and 4 straight is pushing the envelope.

An A-Wing is another beastie altogether, it's tight, hardwired to go fast like the Defender but the Defender has those big old wings that don't like turning in tight corners while the A-Wing is a dart. An A-Wing however can take a slow bank, it's turn or straight at speed 1 reflecting its difficulty to keep under control.

Also, take a look at Daredevil, it allows any EPT carrying ship to do a hard 1 which then stresses the ship because it is an extra, tight, maneuver on top of your regular maneuver which puts more stress on your hull. So much so, that if you can't boost it even risks damaging your ship.

To all the people bringing up Black Squadron + Wingman:

This is definitely viable. Both Black Squadron + Wingman and Captain Yorr are excellent stress mitigatiors for the Empire! Both the shuttle and the Tie Fighters, fly differently from a Tie Defender but its absolutely not impossible to stay in formation and with some practice make this very effective! The only concern here, from a purely game design point, is why would you get a 30+ point ship that has to have wingmen holding its arm on the battle field.

In other words, think about ONLY the expensive ships in X-Wing that we have available for the moment:

• Tie Phantom: cloaking, special hull upgrade (free cloak or evade), sensor slot, crew slot
• Firespray: double arcs, excellent hull to cost ratio, crew slot
• Outrider: crew slot, ability to mount 360 heavy laser, ability to barrel roll on a large ship
• E-Wing: droid slot, sensor slot
• Falcon: double crew slots, 360 cannon, excellent at tanking, very flexible dial
• Tie Defender: cannon slot, white K-Turn
• named B-Wings: cannon slot, sensor slot
• Decimator: 360 cannon, x3 crew slots, bomb slot, excellent at giving out stress

If you look at the above list, all of the expensive named ships (sorry if I missed any) have two or more tricks up their sleeve or the ability to take multiple actions on the same expensive ship. The Tie Defender, surprisingly, has little in the way of uniqueness and you pay for K-Turn through your nose by not having any green banks and having only hard 3 turns be white.

No one is asking for a Tie Defender to have a bag of tricks like a Tie Phantom, but why not give it a bit more flavor. Some of the suggestions so far on this forum have been quite interesting, especially the one with the 2 speed boost!

If it were a crutch then it would simply be a correctional ability, boost actually significantly expands any ship's manuevering capabilities (which is why you pay a full 4 points for it.).

....you've just defined exactly why Engine Upgrade is a poor player's crutch - it allows them to do things that their ship wasn't originally designed to do. 4 points for Wedge (for example) to boost into Range 1, or out of arc, or to obtain a target... you're paying a hefty premium to do it, but you're also not flying the X-Wing as it's meant to be flown; you're relying on an additional mechanic to do the hard work for you. It's a crutch.

That's not to say it's not useful - of course it's useful. It's incredibly useful. Just like a crutch is incredibly useful to someone with a broken ankle.

But now you're saying that everyone with an Engine Upgrade is a poor player and that of course is simply not true.

It can become a crutch if you can fly a ship only with certain upgrades. ACD is a crutch for Phantoms in that respect and PTL for Fel. People however defend their crutches very strongly and are usually completely unwilling to try something else because it changes the way they feel a ship/pilot should be played.

An EU on an X-Wing gives you a lot more options, that really change the way a ship handles.

To tie it back to a Defender, that also changes the way it needs to be flown. People started out looking at it like an Interceptor with shields and lamented and lambasted the fact that PTL is not a good choice for it because stress is hard to deal with and are willing to send the Defender the way of the Advanced because they are unwilling to change themselves, demanding that ships be fixed to be more of the same, maybe not in stats, but in the way they handle.

The generic Defenders have an abysmally low jousting efficiency. It is a hair lower than the TIE Advanced, and a hair above the named YT-1300...

...and yet, in the vast majority of the games I've seen TIE Defenders used in (and there's been a lot), they've ran out as the MVP. Maybe because the players fielding them know what they're doing? Go figure.

Do you have any large tournaments that you can cite data for? If so it would be great to get them added here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/120806-2014-miscellaneous-large-tournaments-results/

It could be that your sample size is too small, or the caliber of players are lower than from wave 4 Nationals / Worlds. No offense - but the people at those level of tournaments are generally all really good. Various VASSAL tournaments also point to the same conclusion.

Seriously though, there is an overwhelming mountain of evidence, both analytically and empirically, that the generic TIE Defenders are significantly overcosted. It is what it is. If they work well in your playgroup's meta, great.

The Defender would be fine if ALL pilots had access to elite talents.

This would even be canon ...

Kinda unnecessary at this point but how long did it take you guys (or gals) to figure out the Shuttle can be worth it? People compare the Tie Defender to the Tie Advanced and say it's over costed and therefore unusable or "not worth" it's cost.

Sure, you can argue jousting values and points efficiency but it all comes down to this. We can freely speculate on aditions to the ships that exist in the game right now but there is no real proof that the Tie Defender needs anything. I fly at least one in almost every imperial list I play and I still emerge victorious 75% of the games I play. I do not own an engine upgrade card and have never used one on a Defender in any of my games. And I can say I'm very tired of these kinds of threads, is it really that hard to start a thread asking people to join in finding ways to utilize a ship rather than piss and moan about it and claim it needs a "fix"?

I love my 2 TIE Defenders and only desire more pilots to fly them.

Kinda unnecessary at this point but how long did it take you guys (or gals) to figure out the Shuttle can be worth it?

A couple weeks maybe? I don't remember for sure, but it wasn't long after release I believe. A lot less time then the Defender has been out for.

There is an easy way to prove all the poor players that rely on crutches how wrong they are, and how wonderful the defender is when fled by someone who has the skills...

Win worlds using at least 1 defender.

And without EU, of course. We don't want anyone to think you are lame. So far, everyone that tried didn't make it, nor even to the top 32... But that's because they were probably poor players that didn't truly know how to fly the ship...

But now you're saying that everyone with an Engine Upgrade is a poor player and that of course is simply not true.

It can become a crutch if you can fly a ship only with certain upgrades. ACD is a crutch for Phantoms in that respect and PTL for Fel. People however defend their crutches very strongly and are usually completely unwilling to try something else because it changes the way they feel a ship/pilot should be played.

An EU on an X-Wing gives you a lot more options, that really change the way a ship handles.

To tie it back to a Defender, that also changes the way it needs to be flown. People started out looking at it like an Interceptor with shields and lamented and lambasted the fact that PTL is not a good choice for it because stress is hard to deal with and are willing to send the Defender the way of the Advanced because they are unwilling to change themselves, demanding that ships be fixed to be more of the same, maybe not in stats, but in the way they handle.

Actually, no I'm not. I'm saying that if you see a ship without the Boost option and your very first instinct is to throw an Engine Upgrade on it, then you're using a crutch. That doesn't mean that the Engine Upgrade isn't useful and doesn't have a place - it's when you rely on it regardless of the situation that it becomes a crutch.

PtL is another good example of a crutch - but not soley when applied to Interceptors. It has a clear and defined role on an Interceptor. It's when players start throwing it on everything - Falcons, B-Wings, X-Wings, Bombers etc - every time they write a list, that's when they're using it as a crutch. That's why I'd argue ACD isn't a crutch - even though it practically changed the meta overnight - because it's being used as intended, in the role it was intended for. It's not a crutch, it's just really damned good. VI on Phantoms, on the other hand...

Back to Defenders. No, they're not Interceptors, and people shouldn't be looking at them as such or attempting to fly them as such - that's not their role, and of course they won't be as effective at it. Personally I see them as smaller, more agile Shuttles that can downright dominate straight line battles. People don't want to fly at them head on. I've seen them used really effectively in conjunction with Phantoms, Interceptors or DoomShuttles. Having three big damage-dealing targets gives your opponent all kinds of problems to deal with.

Seriously though, there is an overwhelming mountain of evidence, both analytically and empirically, that the generic TIE Defenders are significantly overcosted. It is what it is. If they work well in your playgroup's meta, great.

I'll accept that there is an overwhelming mountain of evidence - both analytically and empirically - that certain ships are currently favoured above others at the Nationals/Worlds level. The Phantom, the Falcon, the TIE Fighter and the Z-95 for example. It's called pragmatism.

That's one thing the statistical data is useful for, at least - showing what the pragmatists consider to be the least risky options in a tournamen environment.

There is an easy way to prove all the poor players that rely on crutches how wrong they are, and how wonderful the defender is when fled by someone who has the skills...

Win worlds using at least 1 defender.

And without EU, of course. We don't want anyone to think you are lame. So far, everyone that tried didn't make it, nor even to the top 32... But that's because they were probably poor players that didn't truly know how to fly the ship...

Because unless a ship wins at worlds it's terrible. Don't see any flaws in this logic.

There is an easy way to prove all the poor players that rely on crutches how wrong they are, and how wonderful the defender is when fled by someone who has the skills...

Win worlds using at least 1 defender.

And without EU, of course. We don't want anyone to think you are lame. So far, everyone that tried didn't make it, nor even to the top 32... But that's because they were probably poor players that didn't truly know how to fly the ship...

2 Ships were used by the winner of Worlds, the Falcon and Z95's. So the other 16 ships are terrible?

2 Ships were used by the winner of Worlds, the Falcon and Z95's. So the other 16 ships are terrible?

You heard the man. Time to chuck your TIE Phantoms in the bin.