The Tie Defender is perfectly playable. The Tie Defender is not, however, competitive in a non-casual, large competitive tournament environment because of how many points you have to invest in it. In other words, its a good ship, but it takes up a large chunk of your list building points.

Furthermore, it's also very unforgiving and once out of position it takes several turns to get it back to the correct place on the map. Not having any green banks in combination with having only one white hard turn (while the rest are red) is brutal. Take a T/D against Rebel Captives, Flech-Torps, or any of the other stress givers and you will know pain / just forget about ever doing an action. Having potentially 30-50 point ship running around with no actions is not a recipe for wining competitive games.

I disagree. I've seen the TIE Defender used VERY effectively in concert with other ships. OK, it has a weakness (stress). That is pretty much it's ONLY weakness - but it's hardly an insurmountable one, especially for Imperials.

Again, a bad craftsman blames their tools. A good craftsman learns how to use them effectively.

I have seen the Tie Defender used VERY effectively too, but not consistently.

Its ONLY weakness is stress?

For 30 to 50 points you have:

• Only 1 action, forget push the limit on this ship (really not that big of a deal, but no sensor slot, no crew slot, no tricks up your sleeve).
• No evade, its sometimes difficult not to get ionized.
• No boost, its a ship that works best flying past enemies, a native boost would have gone a long way.
• No sensor slot.
• Lowest durability out of all elite ships, according to Major Juggler's math the T/D has jousting efficiency rivaling that of the Tie Advanced.
• Only 2 named pilots.
• Difficulty turning due to red hard 2's and 1's. Somewhat predictable dial. Easily blockable K-Turn.

Argue what you want, but the Tie Defender is an expensive ship and it has a lot of short comings for what should have been the most advanced Imperial Fighter.

Having people try to come up with interesting tittle cards to change the ship's performance, in the case of this topic, easier stress mitigation, is absolutely not unreasonable.

You know that most of your points apply to most of the ships in the game, right?

A few big points of contention I have though...as far as durability, Major Juggler did the math on it and it came out just under the Firespray. It's pretty dang durable. Major Juggler's math also shows that the jousting values of the named pilots (especially Vessery) are pretty dang good.

I also don't agree about the dial. It has every bang and turn in the game. Sure, the 1's & 2's are red, but I've only ever had to use one of those once in all the time I've played the Defender. I also don't see how a dial can be predictable when it has every maneuver in the game but a straight 1. I also don't agree that the K-Turn is easily blocked. Most of the time your opponent can't do anything about it.

I do think the PS3 pilot is pretty useless. The PS1 pilot is pretty decent with an Ion cannon. Brath can win you the game if his ability triggers (easier now with Fleet Officer) and Vessery is just a monster.

When playing to its strengths as a long range, durable cannon platform it's actually a pretty amazing ship.

Because to many people, red maneuvers that aren't K-turns, S-loops, or Stops are worthless. I like the dial for the Defender. Very unique, and takes some getting used to.

Only 2 named pilots.

This does not count as a weakness.

Because to many people, red maneuvers that aren't K-turns, S-loops, or Stops are worthless. I like the dial for the Defender. Very unique, and takes some getting used to.

Because they normally are. The hard one is great. But now I'm stuck with stress, to clear it I have to go into a straight line. If my opponent doesn't want to be in my gun sight, he's got a good idea where not to be. You can say **** the stress and K-turn/bank or whatever, but now you are stuck with no actions.

It can't boom and zoom well (which is what FFG had in mind when they designed the dial) because it doesn't have natural boost. You have to over shoot and K-turn which puts you out of the fight more often than not. Honestly the Interceptor can boom and zoom better than the Defender can.

Because to many people, red maneuvers that aren't K-turns, S-loops, or Stops are worthless. I like the dial for the Defender. Very unique, and takes some getting used to.

Because they normally are. The hard one is great. But now I'm stuck with stress, to clear it I have to go into a straight line. If my opponent doesn't want to be in my gun sight, he's got a good idea where not to be. You can say **** the stress and K-turn/bank or whatever, but now you are stuck with no actions.

It can't boom and zoom well (which is what FFG had in mind when they designed the dial) because it doesn't have natural boost. You have to over shoot and K-turn which puts you out of the fight more often than not. Honestly the Interceptor can boom and zoom better than the Defender can.

Shrug. I have mainly used Rexlar with Predator. Sometimes, it doesn't hurt to fly around with stress. I'm sorry, but this idea that you MUST clear stress once you take it is absurd. Generally a good idea to do, sure. But sometimes, it is best to just keep it. And the best thing, you can still K-turn.

Yes, the Interceptor is a trickier ship in it's maneuvers. But, the Defender can slow it down much better than the Interceptor or Fighter. Personally, the 1 bank is a great maneuver it has over many other TIEs.

The Defender has an unconventional dial, thus requires some unconventional strategies.

Sometimes, it doesn't hurt to fly around with stress.

I agree. I mean all else being equal getting rid of stress is a good idea. But some people seem to behave as if their ship will spontaneously combust if they have stress next turn. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with having stress.

Sometimes the shot you'll get is too good to pass up even though you keep the stress. Sometimes keeping the stress means going somewhere the other person never expected.

Also both ideas in this thread are fairly bad.

A 0 point upgrade that removes the cannon but turns all 1-2 white maneuvers green? There's issues there.

But the other one? An improved Boost action for 3 points? How can anyone not consider that to be massively broken?

Flew Tarn stressed for 4 turns in order to continously block a Decimator.

Tarn is way way cheaper than even a Delta Defender.

The huge problem is that a 1/3 of your list is flying around stressed and has a hard time shredding it. Even a 1- green forward would help.

Get a Defender double stressed or stressed and Ioned and you might as well write it off.

Get a Defender double stressed or stressed and Ioned and you might as well write it off.

Get any ship stressed and Ioned, and you may as well do the same. The defender is actually better off than most when it comes to that. It has the defense and HP's to survive long enough for the ion to miss. Which is not true of say Interceptors or X-Wings.

I've only ever pulled a hard one once since wave four came out...

Watch out mate, you'll end up getting a warning point if you're not careful...

If you're replacing the cannon upgrade, make it a cannon upgrade slot instead of a title.

If you're making it a title, make it a title, not a cannon upgrade.

The perils of post editing and deleting the original OP: it's evident from the comments that the original suggestion didn't eat the cannon slot, it was suggested it should and the OP adapted it based on the feedback. Problem is, as so many people do on this forum, he edited it into the first point and erased the original, making it look (possibly unintentionally) like it was like that all along, much the confusion of future readers.

A few big points of contention I have though...as far as durability, Major Juggler did the math on it and it came out just under the Firespray. It's pretty dang durable. Major Juggler's math also shows that the jousting values of the named pilots (especially Vessery) are pretty dang good.

Correction: the PS1 cost equivalent jousting efficiency of the named Defenders are very poor if you seldom use their abilities, which I approximated by valuing each of their abilities as 1 point. You may be thinking of Vessery's jousting efficiency if he gets a free Target Lock every attack. In this case, his jousting efficiency is around 100%, so his white K-turn, though not as useful as on a PS1, makes him a decent ship. The issue is getting his ability to trigger every time, it is hard to build a squad around him. The Decimator is one of the better pairings since it doesn't need to focus as an action, having zero agility.

By way of contrast, N’dru Suhlak in wave 6 has a jousting efficiency of 122% when his ability always triggers.

The generic Defenders have an abysmally low jousting efficiency. It is a hair lower than the TIE Advanced, and a hair above the named YT-1300. A white K-turn is not better than a 360 degree firing arc and multiple crew slots. To make the generic TIE Defender the same power level (relative to cost) as the named YT-1300, you would have to give the TIE Defender a TIE Fighter dial and also a 360 degree turret. So yes, you could easily change all the 1's and 2's to greens and the ship would still be overcosted. I'm also still debating what to do with the generic Defenders in my House Rules, so for now I consider 2 points off and an EPT for the PS3 a placeholder.

A few big points of contention I have though...as far as durability, Major Juggler did the math on it and it came out just under the Firespray. It's pretty dang durable. Major Juggler's math also shows that the jousting values of the named pilots (especially Vessery) are pretty dang good.

Correction: the PS1 cost equivalent jousting efficiency of the named Defenders are very poor if you seldom use their abilities, which I approximated by valuing each of their abilities as 1 point. You may be thinking of Vessery's jousting efficiency if he gets a free Target Lock every attack. In this case, his jousting efficiency is around 100%, so his white K-turn, though not as useful as on a PS1, makes him a decent ship. The issue is getting his ability to trigger every time, it is hard to build a squad around him. The Decimator is one of the better pairings since it doesn't need to focus as an action, having zero agility.

By way of contrast, N’dru Suhlak in wave 6 has a jousting efficiency of 122% when his ability always triggers.

The generic Defenders have an abysmally low jousting efficiency. It is a hair lower than the TIE Advanced, and a hair above the named YT-1300. A white K-turn is not better than a 360 degree firing arc and multiple crew slots. To make the generic TIE Defender the same power level (relative to cost) as the named YT-1300, you would have to give the TIE Defender a TIE Fighter dial and also a 360 degree turret. So yes, you could easily change all the 1's and 2's to greens and the ship would still be overcosted. I'm also still debating what to do with the generic Defenders in my House Rules, so for now I consider 2 points off and an EPT for the PS3 a placeholder.

Thank you for stepping in and re-iterating your thoughts on the subject MajorJuggler!

I have to say, I really like the idea of a Defender-only boost modification using the 2 straight and banks. It drives home the idea that the Defender is extremely fast without turning the Defender into a different ship. It plays into the ship's strengths without removing the weaknesses. Given that the Defender is likely overcosted (see MajorJuggler's math), it could probably go for 2pts give or take. Granted I've not played with it, but I would imagine that a 2-speed boost would be substantially harder to dogfight with, so I doubt it would be OP. The TIE/D would still be a poor candidate for PTL and would still have trouble de-stressing, but that is part of the fun and challenge of playing a Defender.

I do not believe that every ship (not pilot) must be top tier tournament caliber. However, every ship should be competitive. What I mean by this is that you should be able to take a given ship and play with it without it being such a handicap that winning ceases to be a good possibility. Yes, a top tier list will (and should) have an advantage. TIEs and Z-95s are going to be very efficient, strong ships. But I should be able to take my a-wings out and not have it be a blowout. I think by and large the game meets this goal.

When thinking of new mechanics in order to keep the ballance you have to think sort of Qid Pro Quo aka This for That.

So for the defender you think sacrificing a cannon is worth removing all red maneuvers. Well there are a couple of problems.

First is that stress management is one of the core themes. If you remove it then you break an important component of the game making a ship too powerful Now you might point to the decimator in which I will point to the upgrade cards like dauntless and Imperial officer which give it stress so yes even the decimator with no red maneuvers still has stress managements built in its mechanics.

Second is that defenders are not that hard to turn around especially with a white K turn. If you really need to get it turning just give it engine upgrade.

Not everything needs to be competitive. Not every game is a top tier tournament. Not every ship needs to be able to compete.

False. True. False.

The generic Defenders have an abysmally low jousting efficiency. It is a hair lower than the TIE Advanced, and a hair above the named YT-1300...

...and yet, in the vast majority of the games I've seen TIE Defenders used in (and there's been a lot), they've ran out as the MVP. Maybe because the players fielding them know what they're doing? Go figure.

What's that phrase again? Lies, **** lies and statistics. Speaking of which...

False. True. False.

False.

I don't mind the defender being made 'faster' but it's a fair point about interceptors.

The TIE defender may be the most expensive Imperial fighter but it's not a 'god mode' ship: the dial and actions (or lack thereof) make it clear that FFG intend it to be "looks like a fish, moves like a fish....steers like a cow", to quote Douglas Adams.

I have no problem with giving it access to boost, but tight turns should be a problem. That's its weakness, and the way that things like TIE/in and other agile fighters can actually fight it.

Equally, wrt stress management - I suspect there's a reason Predator - a damage-boosting talent which doesn't require actions to maintain - came with the defender. People always seem scared to use the speed 1 hard turn, despite it being awesome. I'd probably spring for an engine upgrade on it given a choice - because the following turn you can follow the straight manouvre with a boost, you you're not stuck dawdling in a straight line.

Actually the defender is supposed to be one of the most agile ships, according to the star wars wiki:

When combined, these systems made the ship not only faster, but more agile than any other starfighter in Imperial service and capable of matching the fastest starfighters in the Alliance Fleet

But im fine with ffg giving the ship a specific role of being very fast. So for me the only weakness the defender has is it's price. A chardaan refit like ability would by far be the best solution and should downgrade the price 2 or 3 points and all would be good.

I really don't like the idea of trading away the Canon slot as that's what makes it so strong, and will only keep getting stronger as new canons are added.

What about a title that bumps up generic PS by two?

This ship should be able to maneuver even when going fast. Keep it difficul to hard turn, ok, but add some kind of mod that allows to turn while moving long distances. Rotate the ship after a 4-5 straigut movement to right or left.

Wouldn't that be interesting?

Also, the 2 boost coul also be nice, or curved barrel roll, I don't know. Defender should be specially fast, and must excel when going fast. It would be hell chase a slow enemy tho.

Do you remember that Simpsons scene where two fighters try to chase the Wright Brothers' plane piloted by Sideshow Bob? That.

I have no problem with giving it access to boost, but tight turns should be a problem. That's its weakness, and the way that things like TIE/in and other agile fighters can actually fight it.

Exactly! And furthermore, it already has access to the boost action just like every other ship in the game does - slap on an Engine Upgrade. Not that it really needs it anyway - banking combined with the Barrel Roll action makes it effective enough at close range as well.

Actually the defender is supposed to be one of the most agile ships, according to the sar wars wiki:

Hence the white k-turn, something no other ship in the game currently has. The Defender is probably the best straight-line dogfighter in the game. It is not an arc-dodger.

What about a title that bumps up generic PS by two?

So PS 3 or 5? That's useful for Phantoms who want to move later in the round, but would actually hamper the Defender generics as they would be that much easier to block. PS1 actually helps the Defenders - I thought this was well established by now.

I was thinking more for the onyx, perhaps also add an ept slot.

Engine upgrade does give the defender another unique ability: boost after k-turn