Here is the latest:

Please read as the following changes have happened but everyone keep discussing as if they haven't.

How can people say it has no way to clear stress? Pretty much every straight it has is green. Besides, the TIE defender doesn't need to stress, the white K makes the hard turns mostly unnecessary for getting shots. The TIE defender isn't meant to be an autoPTL like the TIE interceptor: it's not an arc dodger.

I'm liking the suggestion of a 2 speed boost action for it, but personally I think the best buff it could be given is swapping out the white K for the S-loop. The problem there is you can't change the dial, so it would have to be able to situationally decide when it wanted to S-loop.

That, or stick Tetran Cowall in a TIE defender.

Slight rewording:

Enhanced Engines

Action: Perform a free boost action. You may use either speed 1 or 2 templates.

Here is the latest:

Please read as the following changes have happened but everyone keep discussing as if they haven't.

Title:

Vector Thrust Engines

Points:0

Tie Defender Only

Replaces your cannon upgrade. All 1 and 2 white maneuvers count as green.

Title:

3 Points 3 points (I know boost is 4), It's special for the Tie Defender

Tie Defender Only

Enhanced Engines,

May use the boost action, but may boost with either the 1 or 2 templates. Does not add the boost action to your upgrade bar.

I like the first one. The 1 and 2 banks green would open up the dial a lot more. No, you don't have to stress your Defender, but if the enemy does, its only straight maneuvers to clear it are extremely limiting. You can go 5 straight, but that is going to leave you out of the fight for at least 2 turns while you turn around. Or let someone get on your 6. Not good.

The enhanced engines are interesting. I would have to play around with that one and see.

"We are trying to make it a little playable"

In my experience, the TIE Defender is perfectly playable as it is. Only a bad craftsman blames their tools...

Defender needs help with damage output, not stress... What you are trying to turn it into is called the Tie Avenger.

"We are trying to make it a little playable"

In my experience, the TIE Defender is perfectly playable as it is. Only a bad craftsman blames their tools...

I challenge anyone who uses that phrase to cut down a tree with a plastic knife.

I second that! Give that man a plastic Knife I want to see him prove he can do it.! Also give him my 4 Tie advance that sit collecting dust on my shelves.

You wouldn't use a plastic knife to cut down a tree in the first place. Similarly, you wouldn't use a TIE Defender if what you REALLY wanted to do was fly a shielded TIE Interceptor.

I challenge anyone who uses that phrase to cut down a tree with a plastic knife.

That'd be a pretty bad craftsman in the first place. Good craftsmanship starts with being able to identify the right tools for the job. .

What Dag'net said.

"We are trying to make it a little playable"

In my experience, the TIE Defender is perfectly playable as it is. Only a bad craftsman blames their tools...

The Tie Defender is perfectly playable. The Tie Defender is not, however, competitive in a non-casual, large competitive tournament environment because of how many points you have to invest in it. In other words, its a good ship, but it takes up a large chunk of your list building points.

Furthermore, it's also very unforgiving and once out of position it takes several turns to get it back to the correct place on the map. Not having any green banks in combination with having only one white hard turn (while the rest are red) is brutal. Take a T/D against Rebel Captives, Flech-Torps, or any of the other stress givers and you will know pain / just forget about ever doing an action. Having potentially 30-50 point ship running around with no actions is not a recipe for wining competitive games.

Not everything needs to be competitive. Not every game is a top tier tournament. Not every ship needs to be able to compete.

The Tie Defender is perfectly playable. The Tie Defender is not, however, competitive in a non-casual, large competitive tournament environment because of how many points you have to invest in it. In other words, its a good ship, but it takes up a large chunk of your list building points.

Furthermore, it's also very unforgiving and once out of position it takes several turns to get it back to the correct place on the map. Not having any green banks in combination with having only one white hard turn (while the rest are red) is brutal. Take a T/D against Rebel Captives, Flech-Torps, or any of the other stress givers and you will know pain / just forget about ever doing an action. Having potentially 30-50 point ship running around with no actions is not a recipe for wining competitive games.

I disagree. I've seen the TIE Defender used VERY effectively in concert with other ships. OK, it has a weakness (stress). That is pretty much it's ONLY weakness - but it's hardly an insurmountable one, especially for Imperials.

Again, a bad craftsman blames their tools. A good craftsman learns how to use them effectively.

Is stress really that big of a problem? I would hate to see it's very unique dial changed to something so overpowered. If you fear stress that much, use a Black Squadron Pilot with Wingman.

Eh no. Everyship needs to compete and be competitive. Just not every ship is going to be class S or A.

I've only ever pulled a hard one once since wave four came out the banks and barrel roll are usually more than enough.

If you did want to mod it how about this hard ones remain red, hard twos go white and hard threes go green, in exchange forward five turns red four goes white, it's therefore more flexible in a close fight but less able to break off.

Or a chaaradin refit style upgrade could work lose the missiles for -2 points.

I love the defender I'll play it as is happily but I recognize it's not seeing much high end play.

If you're that worried about stress...just run Vessery. Another reason why Vessery is entirely amazing.

But really, stress isn't a big deal. If you're far away from your targets (which you should be in a defender) moving straight doesn't really hurt you. Or you could run Yorr, or a ship with wingman, or a ship with Fleet Officer. With a Fleet Officer ship nearby, you can keep stress on a Defender for a long time if you have to and not even feel it.

And while I'm on the subject; if you haven't tried Fleet Officer yet, try it and be amazed. Easily one of the best cards for Imperials and really opens up the Imperial design space.

The Tie Defender is perfectly playable. The Tie Defender is not, however, competitive in a non-casual, large competitive tournament environment because of how many points you have to invest in it. In other words, its a good ship, but it takes up a large chunk of your list building points.

Furthermore, it's also very unforgiving and once out of position it takes several turns to get it back to the correct place on the map. Not having any green banks in combination with having only one white hard turn (while the rest are red) is brutal. Take a T/D against Rebel Captives, Flech-Torps, or any of the other stress givers and you will know pain / just forget about ever doing an action. Having potentially 30-50 point ship running around with no actions is not a recipe for wining competitive games.

I disagree. I've seen the TIE Defender used VERY effectively in concert with other ships. OK, it has a weakness (stress). That is pretty much it's ONLY weakness - but it's hardly an insurmountable one, especially for Imperials.

Again, a bad craftsman blames their tools. A good craftsman learns how to use them effectively.

I have seen the Tie Defender used VERY effectively too, but not consistently.

Its ONLY weakness is stress?

For 30 to 50 points you have:

• Only 1 action, forget push the limit on this ship (really not that big of a deal, but no sensor slot, no crew slot, no tricks up your sleeve).
• No evade, its sometimes difficult not to get ionized.
• No boost, its a ship that works best flying past enemies, a native boost would have gone a long way.
• No sensor slot.
• Lowest durability out of all elite ships, according to Major Juggler's math the T/D has jousting efficiency rivaling that of the Tie Advanced.
• Only 2 named pilots.
• Difficulty turning due to red hard 2's and 1's. Somewhat predictable dial. Easily blockable K-Turn.

Argue what you want, but the Tie Defender is an expensive ship and it has a lot of short comings for what should have been the most advanced Imperial Fighter.

Having people try to come up with interesting tittle cards to change the ship's performance, in the case of this topic, easier stress mitigation, is absolutely not unreasonable.

Not everything needs to be competitive. Not every game is a top tier tournament. Not every ship needs to be able to compete.

This is a dumb philosophy which leads into the rock, paper, scissor lists we have now. Hopefully wave 5/6 will shake the Meta a bit more and other lists will be competitive.

Not everything needs to be competitive. Not every game is a top tier tournament. Not every ship needs to be able to compete.

This is a dumb philosophy which leads into the rock, paper, scissor lists we have now. Hopefully wave 5/6 will shake the Meta a bit more and other lists will be competitive.

But at the same time, making everything the same leads to a bland game. Not everything will be on par with the gatekeepers. The game is much more interesting when you look at the wider game, not just the top tier stuff. The tier 2 and tier 1.5 stuff is quite fun. Catering to top tier will only lead to power creep.

Not everything needs to be competitive. Not every game is a top tier tournament. Not every ship needs to be able to compete.

This is a dumb philosophy which leads into the rock, paper, scissor lists we have now. Hopefully wave 5/6 will shake the Meta a bit more and other lists will be competitive.

Really? A dumb philosophy? It is a philosophy that a game is supposed to be fun. It is still a game, it is not a sport, it is not a job, it is a game. Not everything needs to be geared to those top tier players, you need something for the much larger base of players: those who play at home, or with friends, but who'll never enter a tournament because that environment is much more cutthroat.

But go ahead, call it a dumb philosophy if you want.

You also need something for those who like to tinker, by the way, the people who look at ships and upgrades and go "hmmm, how does this work, what can I do to shake things up".

Those are the people who, in publishing articles and innovative lists, stimulate the designers in a positive way.

Otherwise you'll only get a bunch of netdeckerslisters.

So when I introduce new people to the game, I'll just tell them if they want to play in tournaments run the Falcon, Phantom, or a swarm. That's sounds like fun.

No, when you introduce people to the game you show the enormous variety in possibilities and let them figure out what they want to play and how they plan to win should they want to play tournaments.