Interesting rules-lawyer question from the German forum:

Can someone point out a rules passage which prohibits drinking a potion mid-attack to restore fatigue for adding/upgrading dice with fatigue?

The rules say "anytime during the turn a fatigue can be converted to 1 MP" and the rules are silent under what circumstances a potion may be drunk (just spend 1 MP).

Thoughts?

I don't know of any rule prohibiting using a MP to drink a potion whenever you feel like doing it on your turn, as long as it's the only potion you drink that turn, of course.

To clarify the situation: Attack - dice were just rolled, hero would like to add power dice using fatigue to enhance his attack. Is it allowed to drink at that moment, and if not, why not (rules passage!)?

The way the attack sequence rules are written, there is no place for the hero to stop and spend fatigue for movement in order to drink a potion. There is a line under Spending Fatigue for Movement (pg18) which could be misinterpreted to claim that you can:

"At any time during a hero’s turn, he may spend one fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently taking the battle action . This may be done as often as the hero desires. Movement points gained in this manner are spent just like normal movement points."

That means that you can spend a fatigue between the first attack and the second attack of the Battle action to gain a movement point that you would not normally receive (since you get no MPs for declaring a Battle action), but not in the middle of an attack. Were you able to do so, it would have been specified.

The attack sequence rules only allow for the spending of fatigue on adding dice to the roll, not for movement. The attack rules on page 10 specifiy very clearly what you are allowed to use fatigue for during an attack .

"Using Fatigue (Heroes Only): After the dice have been rolled for an attack, hero players may also spend one or more fatigue tokens to add additional power dice to the roll. However, an attacker may never roll more than five total power dice for a single attack. See “Spending Fatigue for Attacks,” page 18, for further information. "

This is not one of those cases where a rules lawyer can go "Well it doesn't say you can't so you must be able to". Its pretty clear that the only thing that fatigue can be spent on while following the attack sequence:

Whether the attacker is a hero or a monster, all attacks follow these steps:
Step 1: Declare Attack
Step 2: Confirm Line of Sight
Step 3: Count Range and Roll Attack
Step 4: Spend Power Surges, Power Enhancements,
and Fatigue
Step 5: Determine Attack Success
Step 6: Inflict Wounds

Step 4 is the only place you are allowed to spend fatigue for an attack, and its clearly stated on pages 10 and 18 (as quoted above) what that fatigue can be used for. No spending fatigue for movement points.

I think you could also say that since drinking a potion is described as a movement action and since attack actions are separate from movement actions, you couldn't do any movement actions during an attack. i.e. chaning equipment, opening doors, chests, drinking potions, etc.

I should have clarified that when I said "whenever you feel like it", I didn't mean mid-attack roll.

Big Remy said:

To further clarify: You even do not need a fatigue to spend for drinking a potion, you could just use an unspent MP you received at the start of your turn. So the argument with spending fatigue is not very strong here.

The argumentation in the German forum follows a similar line, indicating that the attack sequence is somewhat "closed" with respect to other effects/actions and has to be completed from 1) to 6) before anything else can happen.

However, if that was true, you wouldn´t be allowed to Guard after step 2) or to Dodge/Aim after step 5), so to me it doesn´t seem that restricted.

Furthermore, at no point in the sequence, range or damage boni from items or skills are added to the attack range or damage - so the argument "if it is not mentioned, it is not allowed" is not a good one either, at least in my opinion.

To be sure, I would never allow a potion to be drunk mid-attack, but I would like to see a solid rules argument here.

In my view, the attack action is a separate complete action that is different from any movement point action. The attack action must be complete before another movement action can take place. Since drinking a potion is a movement point action, it can not be done during the middle of an attack action. The heroes in my game have never asked to drink a potion in the middle of an attack and I don't think I would let them.

Consider however, if you do allow the hero to use a movement point action to drink a potion in the middle of the attack, then you open the door to doing other movement actions at that time, including moving. So, what would stop the hero from rolling a ranged attack and coming up one shy on the distance. Seeing this, they want to spend a movement point to move one step closer so the attack now hits instead of missing. Would you allow this? I don't think anyone would.

Parathion said:

1) The addition of bonuses for damage at least from items is mentioned in Step 6. Range bonuses, unless from skills, would fall under Step 5 for spending surges. The bonuses from skills, for range would be applied in Step 4 since those kick in when making an attack typically. Bonuses for damage would be applied in Step 6

2) Guard, Dodge and Aim are all specific exceptions to the attack sequence detailed in their abilities or cards.. Plus the FAQ does clarify a bit about the timing of Dodge at least.

3) For using leftover movement points, sadly I need to revert to something I don't like and go with again there is nothing in the rules to indicate that its possible. Should there be something saying that, probably. If you are trying to use a fatigue to do it, then the rules support that you can't. And since a MP gained from fatigue or left over from an advance are exactly the same, the rule has to extend to cover non-fatigue MPs as well.

To me the rules are crystal clear, drinking a potion is a movement action and movement actions don't occur during the battle actions. These are two distinct steps during the hero's turn and there is nothing to indicate you can intermingle them. When there are exceptions to normal procedures they are defined in the game, there is nothing defined that says a hero could spend movement points for movement actions during his attack actions. You don't stop to open/close doors in the middle of an attack, you don't stop to pickup coins/open chests in the middle of an attack, you don't stop to drink a potion in the middle of an attack.

Parathion said:

You seem to be jumping from "there are a couple of things that specifically say that they can take place during an attack" to "well, everything must be allowed during an attack, then, whether it says so or not." The opposite conclusion is more plausible--they fact that they point out that you can do these during an attack suggests this is an exception, and that any case where they don't specify, you can't.

I would further point out that under no circumstances is a Guard order resolved during an attack. You can declare a guard interrupt after an attack has been declared, but this causes the game to "rewind" to before the attack, so the overlord is allowed to change his mind about the attack after you finish guarding, and if you do not interrupt immediately, you need to wait for the attack to be resolved in its entirety before you get another chance. So even with an interrupt effect, the attack itself is treated as atomic (you can't partially complete it, then do something else, then continue). The only things that resolve during an attack are effects that are explicitly part of the attack--they may be listed as part of an attack under their respective rules rather than under the attack rules, because Descent rules are pretty poorly organized, but we still have an explicit rule about it.

The alternative, as Edroz points out, is to allow anything to occur mid-attack as long as there isn't specifically a rule against it. That would allow not only drinking potions, but movement, trading and re-equipping items, opening or closing doors and chests, activating Telekinesis, etc. Are you prepared to argue that all of those are legal mid-attack?

Since it is not my position in that discussion, I am not prepared to defend anything like that

There actually is one guy who would allow all this (e.g. stating that the range for the attack is the range originally counted, even if the hero moved in between!), but I think he didn´t think it through all the consequences.

As for adding damage/range boni, I still say that these are not covered in the 6-step attack sequence (at least not in the English pdf version I have which is obviously not the latest), that is those effects that are not triggered by surges in step 5.

You have to take these boni into account by yourself, logically in step 4 or 5 for range and step 6 for damage. Note that step 6 explicitly says "... the attacking player counts the total number of damage (“blood drop” icons) showing on the rolled dice and adds any bonus damage from power surges, power enhancements, or weapon abilities. This is the total damage dealt to the figure in the target space." Skill or item damage boni are not mentioned - meaning the attack sequence is not 100% completely stated and somewhat open for other effects.

Good point for treating Guard interrupts as rewinding (best argument I´ ve read so far), but then you´d have to treat the Feat cards that grant a counter-attack right after an attack was declared on you (but before dice were rolled) in the same way - as it stands, these cards interrupt right after step 1) or 2) of the attack sequence - granted, this is via a special exception rule.

I don't think there is a feat card that allow for counter attack before the dice are rolled.

There is Fend which you play before the OL rolls dice to give you +4 armor or something and then there is the counter-attack card (whose name I can't recall) that specifically says after successful attack against you.

I wouldn't consider either of those interrupting anything.

Parathion said:

For Range/Damage bonuses from skills , yes I don't think it specifically says in the attack rules where those fall in. The skills typically just say when making an attack, you get X bonus.

I would assume that effects from skills and other items would fall under Step 5 (for range) or Step 6 (for damage).

Parathion said:

Parathion said:

Again, you are arguing that because a few special effects explicitly state that they modify attacks, that it must be possible to insert other arbitrary effects into the middle of attacks, even when they don't say you can do that. You might as well say that you must be able to move between when a Trap (Space) card is played and when the trap goes off, because some skill cards modify the effects of Trap cards, so the instructions printed on the card obviously aren't all-inclusive. Or that you should be able to move to town and sell the items in your backpack after opening a chest in order to make room for the treasure cards you draw (after you see them but before you actually take them and are forced to discard something to make room). Or that the active monster can run away between when you declare a guard attack and when it resolves, because it's the monster's turn and you've already decided that the active figure can move in the middle of the resolution of an attack.

You can't just interrupt the rules at completely arbitrary points to perform arbitrary actions; once you choose something to do, you have to finish resolving it before doing something else, unless the rules note an exception. That exception can be noted in the rules for the thing that interrupts the process rather than in the rules for the process being interrupted (as in the case of a Dodge card, for example), but the default behavior if you can't find a rule is that you can't interrupt.

There actually is one guy who would allow all this (e.g. stating that the range for the attack is the range originally counted, even if the hero moved in between!), but I think he didn´t think it through all the consequences.

i think you meant me. but what aspect had i not counted in? i stated that all facts are unchanged, even if you drink a potion or move between step 3 and step 4 it would make no difference to the outcome. you start a battle with 0 fatigue and 2 squares away. you drink a potion after the attack role but for this attack there is only the amount of fatigue at your disposal which was there at the initialisation of the attack.

if you roll the dice and then change the equipment you dont reroll. you keep the result but have another weapon in hand. its not that you magically timetravel.

my interpretation of the rules leads to the excact same results as yours except that if you COULD guard between step 3 and 4 (and every other step less than 6)

i am now aware of the faq "correction":

Q: How does the timing of Guard interact with Dark Charm? Can I use my Guard order to attack when the overlord plays Dark Charm on me so I don’t lose it? Can I use a Guard order to attack the hero the overlord is using Dark Charm on? In either case, can I do so before or after the die is rolled to see if the card takes effect?
A: Guard orders can interrupt the overlord at any time. However, each action should be resolved in its entirety once it’s been begun. (For example, although you can interrupt the overlord if he declares an attack, if you choose not to the attack is resolved in its entirety before you have another chance to use your Guard order. You can’t wait to see if the attack missed or not before deciding to Guard.) So, for Dark Charm, once the overlord has played the card you must immediately decide whether to interrupt it with a Guard order. If you choose not to, the overlord proceeds to roll dice and you must wait for the card (and its attack, if any) to be completely resolved. If you interrupt the Dark Charm and kill the target hero, then the card is canceled without further effect.

i didnt know this passage before so i would have come to the same conclusion that sequences have to be resolved entirely. however that "should" in this context is not appropriate. same goes for the argumentation that the attack sequence is divided in exact 6 steps. the hero and overlord turn is divided in exact 3 steps which can be interupted, spending movement etc. noone had replied to this so far (or have i missed it?)

anyway back to the guard anytime. what would happen if you would be able to guard between step 5 and 6? lets say a named beastman attacks mordrog. he roles 6 damage. mordrog would get hit, recovering fatigue and losing his guard in step 6. now he decides to guard (effectivly making a simultanous attack) he roles 9 damage. the beastman dies (subroutine of his attack in the routine of the beastman attack - steps 1-6 of mordrog would be handled). continuing with step 6 of the beastman attack. mordrog would get 6 damage and 1 fatigue. totaly abstraction: he has only 4 wounds left and divine retribution. killing everything around him and inflicting his last attack to the boss.

this is the only difference i can make out between your ruleset and mine. correct me if i am wrong or just typing bull

want to quote

Turric4n said:

You can Guard between Step 5 and 6. Doing so then rewinds the attack. This might not be a condition you are aware of since its not in the FAQ, but found here in the Gathered List of Answered Questions thread on this forum, where Kevin Wilson said:

This is something that Kevin Wilson clarified in the Gathered List of Answered Questions on this forum. That thread is an collection of official responses and is recognized by the community as binding. If you don't believe that, then please feel free to email one of the forum mods concerning it, especially JR since he has at least twice come on and corrected edited the answers in that thread to update it. If it wasn't official, he wouldn't have done that.,

From the GLoAQ:

Does the OL have to continue his same course of action when interrupted by a guard action?

The OL may change his mind after being interrupted. (…) the OL can change his mind after being interrupted, (…) treat it as though you did a little 'rewind' to right before he declared an attack. The OL, after being interrupted after declaring an attack, may choose to continue with the attack, change its target, or even not to make the attack at all. (Edited to keep the context of the answer)

And your example has several places where it is incorrect that is causing a problem:

1) Mordrog gains a fatigue when he is wounded , not when taking damage. So you example is inaccurate since he never would have gained the fatigue, that would be at the end of Step 6

2) Guard orders are lost if the hero takes wounds , not damage. So agian, you example runs into a problem since he never would have lost the Guard, that would have happened at the end of Step 6

3) Because the attack rewinds to before it happened, Mordrog takes no damage and kills the Beastman.

So if the Beastman survived Mordrog's attack, then he would get a chance to roll again and try to do damage, even if he was interrupted all the way down to between Steps 5 and 6.

As for drinking a potion, yes it can change the outcome. You will have fatigue to use to add dice to attacks that you did not have, and to trigger things like Rapid Fire and Quick Casting. Rapid Fire especially could cause problems with a high fatigue character if they were allowed to drink a potion mid-turn. Same thing for Cleave, since if I remember right that requires a fatigue.

Whoops, where does it say that you can Guard after rolling dice but before applying damage (which would be between steps 5 and 6) ?

Parathion said:

From the rule book:

A hero that has placed a guard order may make an interrupt attack. At any point during the overlord player’s turn (not during a hero’s turn), a hero may use his guard order to immediately “interrupt” the overlord player’s turn and make one attack (following all the normal rules for line of sight and attacking). The overlord player’s turn is immediately halted (even if the overlord player was about to attack with a monster), allowing the hero to resolve his interrupt attack. After the interrupt attack is completed and any casualties are removed, the overlord player may continue his turn. The overlord player must allow for an interrupt attack at any time, and must reverse any movement/attack if it was made too fast for the hero player to have a chance to declare an interrupt attack. If a hero player declines to make an interrupt attack, however, he may not change his mind later.

A guard order stays with a hero until removed by one of the following events: 1) the hero takes one or more wounds, 2) the beginning of the hero’s next turn, or 3) the hero uses the order to make an interrupt attack.

It is entirely possible that I am reading it wrong, but I have always taken the fact that you can interrupt at anytime to mean exactly that: anytime . There are situations where it is advantageous for the heroes to wait for a monster to attack, see if its even going to cause damage to you before using the Guard order and losing it.

Could be wrong however, like I said its just how I've always read those statements..

I think the point is that a hero can say "hold on a minute" if the OL just says he's attacking and rolls the dice without giving the hero a chance to consider if he wants to guard there. I think it might be a bit much to let the hero wait until after dice are rolled and back it up, because he's not really interrupting so much as backtracking at that point. It would certainly kill a big OL strategy which is to attack the guarding figure to force an attack lest he take wounds before getting to use his guard order.

Normally when we play the OL will say, "I'm attacking [hero with guard order]...(pause, expectant look at player controlling [hero with guard order]". Then the player controlling [hwgo] either says "go ahead" or "I will activate my guard." We play that if you let the attack go off, that attack will go off. I think that section in the rules is to avoid OL's being jerks and rolling their attacks real fast to try to get around guarding.

That's my $.02. I guess you could go the other way--it just seems to make guard that much more powerful.

Big Remy said:

No you can't. The passage saying you can't has already been quoted, it's from the FAQ on Guard vs. Dark Charm:

"For example, although you can interrupt the overlord if he declares an attack, if you choose not to the attack is resolved in its entirety before you have another chance to use your Guard order. You can’t wait to see if the attack missed or not before deciding to Guard."

Right after the declaration (step 1) is the absolute last opportunity to interrupt. I'm pretty sure that's been stated more explicitly before, but I can't find it at the moment, and it may have been obfuscated by a FAQ or GLoAQ rewrite, but that rule's been clear for as long as I've been playing. A guard can stop the overlord after he's declared his next action (triggering a rewind), but if you choose not to interrupt you need to wait for the declared action to be fully resolved before you get another chance.

This is a good rule. There would be interminable fights about how to actually resolve things if this was not the rule, and it would surely allow for all sorts of weird exploits, like declaring your guard attack against the spider after the beastman has rolled his attack against you just to make him reroll a good roll, even though his attack would be totally unaffected by your guard.

i think my browser does not like this board.. did i just doublepost? or do i have to write it all over again?

okay second try:

you wrote this:

And your example has several places where it is incorrect that is causing a problem:

1) Mordrog gains a fatigue when he is wounded, not when taking damage. So you example is inaccurate since he never would have gained the fatigue, that would be at the end of Step 6

2) Guard orders are lost if the hero takes wounds, not damage. So agian, you example runs into a problem since he never would have lost the Guard, that would have happened at the end of Step 6

3) Because the attack rewinds to before it happened, Mordrog takes no damage and kills the Beastman.

1) as a result of waiting for the beastman to roll mordrog would get hit (most likely) and gaining a fatigue after everything is resolved. if he had guarded right before the beastman roll he would have not get hit and would not have gained a fatigue (lifepoints for fatigue.. bad tradeoff so this will problem would never occur)

2)this is the reason you could still guard after step 5 and before step 6. he has his guard to attack. please read carefully what i wrote.

3)nothing rewinds after the beastman attackrolled

to clarify this (again) THIS IS A NOW COMPLETELY FICTIONAL SITUATION. as i wrote my statement i didnt know the faq passage which contradicts this. the faq however is written sloppy. "every sequence should be resolved in its entirely" doesnt mean neccessarily that it has to be done!

the person above this post: if the beastman rolls against you, and you would guard against the spider IN THIS SEQUENCE, why should the beastman reroll. there is NO REASON for this. no time traveling except the overlord would not wait for the heroes long enough after declaring an attack and rolling. if the hero decides to interrupt between s5 and s6 (rules -> EVERY TIME IN THE OVERLORDS TURN) then the roll of the beastman is rolled. nothing will change it.

Antistone said:

Yup, okay I see where I was wrong. My bad.

Turric4n said:

Because Big Remy cited the "rewind" ruling from the Gathered List of Answered Questions, which says that if a guard order is used to interrupt an attack after it is declared (but before it is resolved), then the overlord is free to change his mind about making that attack in the first place, and appeared to be applying it in the case that the attack is hypothetically interrupted between steps 5 and 6.

As I believe is now clear, interrupting between steps 5 and 6 of the attack sequence is not allowed, and so it's no surprise if it's unclear what would happen if you were allowed to do it. But "rewinding" has at least some precedent in the rules, while "simultaneous" actions do not.