I understand the argument going here but cannot really understand the reasoning. Granted I have a very small local group but we play for fun and everybody plays different lists regularly. The only time we see a lot of highly competitive lists is when someone is practicing for a "real" tournament with prize support. If the people in your area only want to win and thus only play top tier lists then speak with them about it. I'm sure if you explain to them that it hurts the local scene and that there will be no one left to play against then I'm sure it will sink in. After all it is a game and should be fun, and if I had a guy in my group that always played the same winning list over and over then he would soon find himself with no one to play said list against. You also could try some restricted lists, one weekend no large ships, next weekend no uniques, next weekend 4 ship minimum builds....etc. there are ways to mix up and improve the overall game experience that allows people to play their top tier lists at times and move them into more creative builds other times. Just my thoughts on the subject, but again it's not a problem I have encountered in my local scene.

I meant YT-1300...

why do you always see the same lists at the top tables?

You don't, not really.

I just looked at MajorJugglers tournament report, here's the breakdown of the 54 lists that were posted.

20 Falcon

10 Rebels (Didn't include Falcons)

9 Phantoms

10 Swarms

5 Imperials (Didn't include Phantoms but weren't swarms either.)

Only about 1/3rd of the lists were Falcons. So you can't really say that you always see the same lists at the top tables.

That isn't to say that I don't think there's any room for changes to Large Turret ships, or even turrets in general, but they're not as broken as some people think they are.

Myself if I were the one in charge. I'd likely to something like this.

Turrets that fire out side their arc get a -1 attack die, turrets that fire inside their arc get a +1 attack die. So a YT-1300 with the defender at range 1 in the YT's primary arc would throw 5 dice. But a defender at range 3 outside the primary would roll +1 dice vs 2 attack.

Would make the way people fly a Large Turret quite different than it is now, without shifting the balance too far. Large Turrets would lose some effectiveness due to a much larger out then in arc.

So 39 out of 54 (72%) were the top 3 lists (rock-paper-scissors) right now. Doesn't really give much hope for people who don't run those 3 types. I myself am a big firespray fan, and while they can definitely do very well, they do struggle against the 3 big archetypes at the moment (thought the scum versions are a step up at least). I can win against all 3 types, but more likely to lose.

That same tourney saw SableGryphon blow minds with a bomber-heavy build with Proximity Mines.

Frankly, I was down on the Wave 4 meta, but Wave 5 and seeing some of the crazy builds from World's has me excited. I feel like the game is alight with possibilities, and there are lots of opportunities for the skilled player to find those holes in the meta. The addition of more expensive turret ships means that cost-efficient shops that don't care about turrets (like shuttles) can really dominate again.

Well, I know about my local meta. There was a 7 person tournament. Oh, it's not Worlds or GenCon, but it's a local event to me. 3 Rebel players. Two had Fat Han and one had two YT-2400's. One Imperial had Decimator with Phantom. That's the only Decimator or Phantom of Imperials. It would be nice to see some sort of variety in the Rebels.

AKA stop running turrets so I can dominate with my interceptors and phantoms lol

Well, I know about my local meta. There was a 7 person tournament. Oh, it's not Worlds or GenCon, but it's a local event to me. 3 Rebel players. Two had Fat Han and one had two YT-2400's. One Imperial had Decimator with Phantom. That's the only Decimator or Phantom of Imperials. It would be nice to see some sort of variety in the Rebels.

AKA stop running turrets so I can dominate with my interceptors and phantoms lol

Rebel Captive and V.I Boba also murder interceptors

I've honestly never understood the perception that turrets were somehow needed to counter phantoms or interceptors. Both are terribly unforgiving ships with horrible defensive profiles locked behind all those green dice and are pretty trivial to remove once you manage to deny (de)cloaks (ADC in particular) or actions respectively. Add in the fact that they will almost never get to shoot behind them (requires k-turn --> stress --> dead ships, with only Echo being excepted because of bank de-cloak with hard turn) and they're already far more manageable/able to outplayed than turreted ships.

Have had few issues playing on even footing with phantoms using pilots such as Jake, Wedge, Keyan, Boba, or even other Phantoms/Interceptors. Hell, getting even 2 3-dice arcs on Whisper can spell the end for the opponent because green dice are fickle bastards. Hull and Shields, however, are not.

Well, I know about my local meta. There was a 7 person tournament. Oh, it's not Worlds or GenCon, but it's a local event to me. 3 Rebel players. Two had Fat Han and one had two YT-2400's. One Imperial had Decimator with Phantom. That's the only Decimator or Phantom of Imperials. It would be nice to see some sort of variety in the Rebels.

AKA stop running turrets so I can dominate with my interceptors and phantoms lol

That is funny! I don't own a Phantom, though. I don't prefer Interceptors, but I did run Turr Phenir in my list as I needed a knife fighter. I used a Lamba Shuttle, Tie Defender, and Turr. I came in 3rd, so I didn't do bad. I'm not complaining about things being broken. I'm complaining about things being same-same.

Well, I know about my local meta. There was a 7 person tournament. Oh, it's not Worlds or GenCon, but it's a local event to me. 3 Rebel players. Two had Fat Han and one had two YT-2400's. One Imperial had Decimator with Phantom. That's the only Decimator or Phantom of Imperials. It would be nice to see some sort of variety in the Rebels.

Out of all the ships in the game and all the combos you can take...

Yes the YT was popular, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But it's not as bad as some people claim it to be. It's not like the top 8 in a given tournament is going to be 6 YT's and 2 Phantoms.

Actually, that happened in one of our tournaments almost exactly lol. Not in the amount, but proportion to 16 players, 10 falcon, 3 phantoms. I appreciate the effort Vanor, but well, when i am talking about my local meta, i think i am more aware than you are

Well, I know about my local meta. There was a 7 person tournament. Oh, it's not Worlds or GenCon, but it's a local event to me. 3 Rebel players. Two had Fat Han and one had two YT-2400's. One Imperial had Decimator with Phantom. That's the only Decimator or Phantom of Imperials. It would be nice to see some sort of variety in the Rebels.

AKA stop running turrets so I can dominate with my interceptors and phantoms lol

AKA insert one liner snarky comment because i don't like what he is saying.

I appreciate the effort Vanor, but well, when i am talking about my local meta, i think i am more aware than you are

No I'm pretty sure I know more about the local meta for the whole world then the people there do... It's a curse but what can you do?

I'm joking of course, in case that wasn't already clear.

Even if that is true, I think a lot of it is people taking the Fat Han lists because they think it's best possible list they can, even bordering on broken. Without really considering their other options. I mean if 10 people bring Fat Hans, 9 of them are going to get beaten at one point or another...

It also seems that if everyone is bringing a rock, playing Paper means you have a pretty good chance of winning, which should mean fewer rocks next time.

So yes, I can see an event with that many falcons would not be the most enjoyable thing to take part in. But I also think that is something that should sort itself out.

So yes, I can see an event with that many falcons would not be the most enjoyable thing to take part in. But I also think that is something that should sort itself out.

I think it's also concerning that so many people seem inclined to complain and quit rather than work to change the local meta.

To me, it seems that the YT-builds are so prevalent because people are afraid to go in with a list designed to pummel them into the ground, at the risk of not faring too well against other lists. Rather than risk losing to other lists they'd complain about losing to lists they deem dominating the scene.

I do think Rebels need some non-turret love. They suffer from a severe lack of maneuverability compared to the Imperials.

Rebel aces provided quite a bit with Jakes and Keyan* being some of the most hilariously maneuverable (and fun ) ships in the game

*before anyone disputes this, I'm aware some like to think of Keyan as some kind of Opportunist enabler which, imo, is just wrong. With Advanced Sensors, Keyan is basically a stubby rebel phantom with no red manuevers. Slap on V.I or the new Stay on Target and watch him dance. He works best when you ring the middle of the table with asteroids and stick him in the middle of the ensuing hairball.

Refit and test pilot also gave rise to some rather wacky Tychos and Green Squadron set-ups, plus a surprisingly solid Gemmer + Predator.

^^^ What this man said

Yes the YT was popular, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But it's not as bad as some people claim it to be. It's not like the top 8 in a given tournament is going to be 6 YT's and 2 Phantoms.

This is pretty much exactly what the top of the TC open was.

Even if that is true, I think a lot of it is people taking the Fat Han lists because they think it's best possible list they can, even bordering on broken. Without really considering their other options.

I guess that's why Paul Heaver ran it at both GenCon and Worlds. He figured it was broken and didn't bother to consider anything else.

Presumably you don't actually think that about Paul. So where do you draw the line between the people who think about it enough to decide that Han is competitive, and those who just don't consider anything else? I mean, how do you separate the brilliant players like Paul who decide Han is his best option from the mindless netdecking drones?

I mean, how do you separate the brilliant players like Paul who decide Han is his best option from the mindless netdecking drones?

On second thought it just isn't worth it. Because you're not actually interested in a real discussion.

My posts on this thread haven't been that unclear, so either you've lost your normal level of reading comprehension, or you just want to take shots at anyone who disagrees with you.

I mean, how do you separate the brilliant players like Paul who decide Han is his best option from the mindless netdecking drones?

On second thought it just isn't worth it. Because you're not actually interested in a real discussion.

My posts on this thread haven't been that unclear, so either you've lost your normal level of reading comprehension, or you just want to take shots at anyone who disagrees with you.

To be fair, I actually thought along similar lines as Buhallin regarding your notion of it being played so much because of group think. It's not the only thing being played by the top players, but it is being played by the top players quite a bit (a reason that Deadshane's comment was so ironic). A couple of other data points.

...On his blog, one of the reasons, as I understood it, Paul built his list the way it was was to counter other Fat Hans. He didn't turn to something else, because he knew that that build was able to take on other match-ups fairly well and he could even give himself a reasonable chance to win against swarms.

...At World's I saw the French Champion (iirc) flying a Tie Swarm get beat by a very good local player flying a Fat Han list. It wasn't the only time I saw that, but the notion that swarms are the easy answer just doesn't hold true. A YT can hold its own when played well (as Paul believed, too) against them just fine, and considering it holds a major advantage in so many other matchups, it becomes a very easy choice.

...The TC open certainly featured a lot of turrets because they were new, but people could take two lists and by the time things were whittled down to 32 and players had to decide on 1 list, there were less than a handful of lists that didn't include large base turret. People went with what had gotten them there, but they also certainly went with what they believed was their best option going forward.

...Today, in a comment on a blog over at TC, another top player, Theorist, said this: I do think that C3P0 was very close to being a mistake — Falcon was already a very capable ship and more importantly easy to fly, and it didn’t need the new defensive layer. However the introduction of C3P0 has kept swarm ships in the game (because they were starting to get beaten by lots of things… but not seeing all that much introduced that they countered), so we’ve teetered on the edge of a cliff but not quite fallen over it.

In the end, I believe that good players (Kinetic Operator being the first) discovered the potential of the Fat Falcon and good players play it (and likely Dash as well) because it is one of the best ships in the game right now and they know it's good, not just because that they think it's good. Whether it's broken or not, it doesn't really matter as I do see the game moving from X-Wing to Turret-wing, but I have hope that it is temporary (Scum will hopefully change it for a few different reasons) or that the designers will implement changes to the game if it doesn't.

I'll add that I was exactly where some of you are now a couple of months ago, but that's changed both due to the release of Wave 5 (I'm already tired of seeing LBTs in well over half my games and that players, especially Fat Falcon players, have figured out there are two very efficient builds and both those builds can handle anything, so they're seen frequently.

regarding your notion of it being played so much because of group think.

And as I said, I'm not trying to say it's only group think, or that the list isn't really that good. It is a great list, because it does well against most anything. It reduces a lot of the random from the game, and that is always good thing.

But it's also clear that not everyone who plays a Fat Han does so because they have crushed the meta and determined on their own that Fat Han is the best possible list to play.

Heck look at Pauls list, it wasn't exactly the typical Fat Han either.

Whether it's broken or not, it doesn't really matter as I do see the game moving from X-Wing to Turret-wing

Turrets, especially Fat Han, but also Dash and the various VT's are clearly good ships, and become Very good, because of synergy with other things, like the Z-95 allowing you to drop that many points on one ship, or C-3PO. Even then we're even seeing a shift away from Z-95's to a single escort.

I also have some faith in FFG doing something about it. I do worry though that anything they do will start to lead to a never ending cycle of upgrade bloat... Where they release something (Like C-3PO) and because they don't want to nerf 3PO, they release something to counter the current top end lists. Which leads to other combos becoming the new hotness, which leads to more upgrades to counter them, and so on. Or else doesn't accomplish what they want. Assault Missiles was suppose to be the end of the swarm, but it's pretty easy to see how that worked out.

While I appreciate the effort, I'd much rather see them do something like errata 3PO so zero isn't a valid answer, then just keep piling bandaids on top of bandaids.

regarding your notion of it being played so much because of group think.

And as I said, I'm not trying to say it's only group think, or that the list isn't really that good. It is a great list, because it does well against most anything. It reduces a lot of the random from the game, and that is always good thing.

But it's also clear that not everyone who plays a Fat Han does so because they have crushed the meta and determined on their own that Fat Han is the best possible list to play.

Heck look at Pauls list, it wasn't exactly the typical Fat Han either.

Whether it's broken or not, it doesn't really matter as I do see the game moving from X-Wing to Turret-wing

While I appreciate the effort, I'd much rather see them do something like errata 3PO so zero isn't a valid answer, then just keep piling bandaids on top of bandaids.

C3 should have been guess the dice/die facing not the number of evade results. So you have to either guess blank/focus/evade. Best bet would be saying blank every time, but 25% of the time you'll land on focus and be wrong with no evade unless you have a focus token.

Minor point: Paul's list was conceived when he got beat by that version of Han at Nationals. It's now one of the top 2 falcon builds and the one that pushed me from "good but beatable" to, well, a more frustrated take on Large Base Turrets.

Minor point: Paul's list was conceived when he got beat by that version of Han at Nationals. It's now one of the top 2 falcon builds and the one that pushed me from "good but beatable" to, well, a more frustrated take on Large Base Turrets.

Lol it's very beatable

Minor point: Paul's list was conceived when he got beat by that version of Han at Nationals. It's now one of the top 2 falcon builds and the one that pushed me from "good but beatable" to, well, a more frustrated take on Large Base Turrets.

Lol it's very beatable

Minor point: Paul's list was conceived when he got beat by that version of Han at Nationals. It's now one of the top 2 falcon builds and the one that pushed me from "good but beatable" to, well, a more frustrated take on Large Base Turrets.

Lol it's very beatable

Didn't say it wasn't, but multiple times seen those 7 points account for almost doubling the health of a falcon, and it's not fun or even interesting to face, especially in a 60 minute round.

Idk I like going up against it. We have different criteria for fun I guess.

Minor point: Paul's list was conceived when he got beat by that version of Han at Nationals. It's now one of the top 2 falcon builds and the one that pushed me from "good but beatable" to, well, a more frustrated take on Large Base Turrets.

Lol it's very beatable

Didn't say it wasn't, but multiple times seen those 7 points account for almost doubling the health of a falcon, and it's not fun or even interesting to face, especially in a 60 minute round.

Idk I like going up against it. We have different criteria for fun I guess.

Out of curiosity, what do you enjoy flying against them?

I mean, how do you separate the brilliant players like Paul who decide Han is his best option from the mindless netdecking drones?

On second thought it just isn't worth it. Because you're not actually interested in a real discussion.My posts on this thread haven't been that unclear, so either you've lost your normal level of reading comprehension, or you just want to take shots at anyone who disagrees with you.

This is a common line of defense whenever this comes up, that you only see then Fat Falcon so often because of people copying others, or as you put it, "Without really considering their other options". It seems to me, and feel free to correct me here, that the obvious implication is that if those people did consider their other options, they'd be flying something else.

So as Alex points out, a lot of very good players who I assume you credit with properly considering heir options still choose to fly turrets. Again, to reiterate Alex and contra the "just swarm" answers, Paul decided that the best was to beat Fat Han was a slightly different Fat Han. So again, assuming you credit him with properly considering his options, it seems at least some people still fly it.

So,if we have Paul at the top getting full credit for doing it right, and some mindless scrub copying him at the bottom, where do you draw your line of people who it's OK to fly Fat Han? Which ones should stop flying it to even things out, having not met your qualifications for properly considering their options? If we line up six Fat Han players in front of you! which ones will you tell that they just haven't thought this through very well?

If you could pick hose specific people out, it would be an insulting comment to make. Applied as a broad brush to a bunch of people that you know nothing about, it's elitist at best. I'm not sure if you really think half the people who play this game are just too dumb to pick a list on their own or if you're just feeling pushed to that to justify the status quo, but it's a troubling position.

Edit: the truly ironic thing here is that turrets have shown that they're solidly competitive against all comers, with no real hard counters. So if there's anyone who isn't considering their other options it's very likely those who AREN'T using them.