And now on topic.

For the first two tournaments featuring handful of Falcon builds, i was a bit baffled (more like bored tho, i won most games anyways, but it was really boring). I ended up saying, well, then it is what it is. Instead of taking internet wisdom about Tie swarm, i went for a XXXZZZ swarm, which is actually pretty good against Fat Han's varieties with gunner.

Now you have to accept (if you want to of course), that wave 5 will feature a lot of turret large ships. It's just a fact. Call it popularity, small reliance on rolls and more on maneuvering, whatever. They are just solid lists, and in general, decent take all comers, so good and bad players will gravitate towards them, and also, because they are new! Good thing, now there is true variance, not just Fat Hans.

So with that in mind, you have two options. Just join them. Really, once you get that out of your system, you will be able to enjoy the game again, and it will teach you a lot of lessons about dealing with them. Or you could prepare lists against the specific meta. I am playing 3X's lately to suprisingly good results. I am also going to dust off my 3 interceptor lists and try it out in the new meta, to take a dive.

Just experiment and have fun. If you still don't have fun in tournaments on wave 5. Just stop playing tournaments, and find like minded people to enjoy the game with. Cheers and best of lucks to you.

+1

The biggest and winningest tourney and vassal champions dont spend an iota of time debating on how broken turret ships are.

What does that tell you?

Lots of peeps on this s8te seem to have more knowledge about game balance than the best players or the designers themselves. Lol.

*Checks out the lists winning tourneys and vassal championship*

*Raise an eyebrow*

*Start laughing*

What does it tell me ? Well, that you are fighting invisible ghosts whining about OP ships in a thread which is not about OP ships, but about the little variance shown on tournaments on the local scene of somebody with an excessive amount of falcons who decides to rant about how boring it is for him to face the same kind of lists over and over, and by extension, others peoples who had experienced the same. After your first introduction in the thread by not reading the thread, you decide to contribute a second time to point out about how winningest tourney players don't discuss the stuff you are discussing with your invisible ghosts, and funnily enough, the majority of them played large turret ships.

Man, you are on fire.

The biggest and winningest tourney and vassal champions dont spend an iota of time debating on how broken turret ships are.

What does that tell you?

I like the irony here.

Doubly so because I'm pretty sure he doesn't even see it.

If you're part of the crowd that is still unhappy and wants to get some games in and maybe win a card or some tokens then that's fine but don't whine about it when people bring power lists that are solely there to win. That's the competitive scene. If you're going there with the intention of winning then expect to see alot of falcons, decimators, and outriders at the top tables and have an answer for them.

You do realize that an interesting game and a competitive game are not required to be mutually exclusive options, right?

Indeed it's not that you can't kill falcons it's just tedious to fight the same fight over and over.

It's also frustrating to have your options limited, say you like interceptors but you can't run them because they'll get creamed.

Falcons were not the only phantom counter just the one that took the least amount of effort.

Feel free to give up tournaments. They are optional and not required to enjoy the game.

Game is well balanced (compared to others) and a huge amount of fun.

Tournament scene is strong with lots of swag and totally supported by FFG.

Still people complain.

Waaahhh.

Go play 40k.

There used to be differences in events. There were the hyper-competitive players who went to Worlds, and GenCon and all the other top name tournaments. Then, there were your local game store events. To me, there was a difference. I expect the worst at the top events. The local events used to have some of those guys, but also have a lot of different players. It was about having a fun game day where you would meet people you hadn't played before and flying against a lot of different lists. That doesn't happen much anymore.

Can the OP (and all those that agree with him) just stop playing tournaments? Sure, but it's just a bit sad that it's changed so. In fact, the OP was ready to quit the tournament scene if that's all it was. He/She was just hoping that it was not as bad as it seems.

If the game is balanced, why do you always see the same lists at the top tables?

Also, telling someone who is unhappy with tournament scene balance to go play 40k is like telling someone who wants to quit drinking to go to a beer festival.

why do you always see the same lists at the top tables?

You don't, not really.

I just looked at MajorJugglers tournament report, here's the breakdown of the 54 lists that were posted.

20 Falcon

10 Rebels (Didn't include Falcons)

9 Phantoms

10 Swarms

5 Imperials (Didn't include Phantoms but weren't swarms either.)

Only about 1/3rd of the lists were Falcons. So you can't really say that you always see the same lists at the top tables.

That isn't to say that I don't think there's any room for changes to Large Turret ships, or even turrets in general, but they're not as broken as some people think they are.

Myself if I were the one in charge. I'd likely to something like this.

Turrets that fire out side their arc get a -1 attack die, turrets that fire inside their arc get a +1 attack die. So a YT-1300 with the defender at range 1 in the YT's primary arc would throw 5 dice. But a defender at range 3 outside the primary would roll +1 dice vs 2 attack.

Would make the way people fly a Large Turret quite different than it is now, without shifting the balance too far. Large Turrets would lose some effectiveness due to a much larger out then in arc.

I'm sorry, but 1/3 of the lists being Falcons is a lot to me. Maybe it's not as much as last year, but it's still 1/3 of every list on the top tables having a near-identical list. Oh, there may be variance in which crew if it's Z-95's or HWK's, but its still primarily a Fat Han list.

2/3 is a lot to me.

If the game is balanced, why do you always see the same lists at the top tables?

Mostly because, pre-Wave V, forums such as this kept perpetuating the myth that Falcons and Phantoms were outright broken. What does a myth like that do? Advertises Falcons and Phantoms like nothing else.

2/3 is a lot to me.

Out of all the ships in the game and all the combos you can take.....1/3 of EVERY list being based on one ship and it's support? That's a lot.

I'm sorry, but 1/3 of the lists being Falcons is a lot to me.

That's a matter of opinion, but clearly there's still a fair amount of variety at the top tables. Also as TIE Pilot there says, this is at least due to self fulling prophecy... Everyone kept talking about how broken the Fat Han was, so naturally a lot of people who spent the money and time to make it to Worlds was going to bring what they thought was the best list they could.

But the top 8 at Worlds was 2 Falcons, 2 Swarms, 2 Rebs and 2 Phantoms. That's hardly 'the same list at every top table.'

Well, I know about my local meta. There was a 7 person tournament. Oh, it's not Worlds or GenCon, but it's a local event to me. 3 Rebel players. Two had Fat Han and one had two YT-2400's. One Imperial had Decimator with Phantom. That's the only Decimator or Phantom of Imperials. It would be nice to see some sort of variety in the Rebels.

It probably is also a bit of vengeance against the phantoms and the swarm. .

Out of all the ships in the game and all the combos you can take...

A-Wings, Y-Wings, Tie Advanced, HWK's Z-95's, Tie Interceptors, Tie Bombers all are not ships you can build a competitive list around if they're the core.

Yes the YT was popular, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But it's not as bad as some people claim it to be. It's not like the top 8 in a given tournament is going to be 6 YT's and 2 Phantoms.

Well, I know about my local meta. There was a 7 person tournament.

A 7 person tournament isn't really a very good example of the game as a whole. That's like saying your dice are defective because you rolled bad twice in a row.

That's a matter of opinion, but clearly there's still a fair amount of variety at the top tables. Also as TIE Pilot there says, this is at least due to self fulling prophecy... Everyone kept talking about how broken the Fat Han was, so naturally a lot of people who spent the money and time to make it to Worlds was going to bring what they thought was the best list they could.

But the top 8 at Worlds was 2 Falcons, 2 Swarms, 2 Rebs and 2 Phantoms. That's hardly 'the same list at every top table.'

Self-fulfilling prophecy, hmm?

It is evident, then, that we best spread the word about how broken the Advance is.

that we best spread the word about how broken the Advance is.

Prophecy only goes so far.

I don't think anyone in their right mind is trying to deny that the YT is a good ship, and that Fat Han is a good list, that can do well against pretty much anything.

But that doesn't change the fact that a number of people take it because they heard it's broken. Keep in mind, that out of that 20 Falcon lists, only a few of them made it to the final table.

Well, I know about my local meta. There was a 7 person tournament.

A 7 person tournament isn't really a very good example of the game as a whole. That's like saying your dice are defective because you rolled bad twice in a row.

I disagree. The OP stated that in his local meta, it's all YT's. In my local meta, if you are going Rebels, it's all YT's. I'm sure it's not just my local meta, either. The problem is that many people are taking YT's in their lists. Tournaments are getting pretty boring due to facing the same blasted ships time and time again.

why do you always see the same lists at the top tables?

You don't, not really.

I just looked at MajorJugglers tournament report, here's the breakdown of the 54 lists that were posted.

20 Falcon

10 Rebels (Didn't include Falcons)

9 Phantoms

10 Swarms

5 Imperials (Didn't include Phantoms but weren't swarms either.)

Only about 1/3rd of the lists were Falcons. So you can't really say that you always see the same lists at the top tables.

That isn't to say that I don't think there's any room for changes to Large Turret ships, or even turrets in general, but they're not as broken as some people think they are.

Myself if I were the one in charge. I'd likely to something like this.

Turrets that fire out side their arc get a -1 attack die, turrets that fire inside their arc get a +1 attack die. So a YT-1300 with the defender at range 1 in the YT's primary arc would throw 5 dice. But a defender at range 3 outside the primary would roll +1 dice vs 2 attack.

Would make the way people fly a Large Turret quite different than it is now, without shifting the balance too far. Large Turrets would lose some effectiveness due to a much larger out then in arc.

So 39 out of 54 (72%) were the top 3 lists (rock-paper-scissors) right now. Doesn't really give much hope for people who don't run those 3 types. I myself am a big firespray fan, and while they can definitely do very well, they do struggle against the 3 big archetypes at the moment (thought the scum versions are a step up at least). I can win against all 3 types, but more likely to lose.

that we best spread the word about how broken the Advance is.

Prophecy only goes so far.

I really do wish the whole "just believe in yourself" schtik from movies applied to real life

Well, here's hoping Wave 6 and the promised tie advance fix (whenever that happens) comes in to shake up our local metas.

I can't promise anything based on my memorization of the cards, but I'm pretty excied for what titled ion Ys, character firesprays, and relatively cheap & effective combat characters such as Kavil and N'dru will bring (and auto-thrusters ofc)

So 39 out of 54 (72%) were the top 3 lists (rock-paper-scissors) right now. Doesn't really give much hope for people who don't run those 3 types. I myself am a big firespray fan, and while they can definitely do very well, they do struggle against the 3 big archetypes at the moment (thought the scum versions are a step up at least). I can win against all 3 types, but more likely to lose.

If it helps, Rebel Captive on Firesprays or V.I on Boba absolutely hoses Phantoms The bank change really comes into its own when you're moving last.

The imperial Sprays don't have the raw stats or crew slots to win the dice-off versus turrets, but they're cheaper so you can get more Ties (imo, the best chaffe in the game) in there to help even the odds.

I have to admit that I hate to even look at the Top 32 only. What about the whole event? How many people out of how many total took a YT-2400 in their list? That's the real crux of the problem. Not that it does well and is broken, but that you just have to play against so many of them that it's boring.

I have to admit that I hate to even look at the Top 32 only. What about the whole event? How many people out of how many total took a YT-2400 in their list? That's the real crux of the problem. Not that it does well and is broken, but that you just have to play against so many of them that it's boring.

0, because Wave 5 wasn't legal yet. Yes, there were a lot of Falcons and Phantoms and Swarms. But there were some very interesting variations that did well, and a few surprising lists in there. Looking at all the 4-2s, I think you would get a bit more variety in squads.