Well, if you decide to get rid of your ships, I'd be interested in picking up your collection.

That said, don't drop the game. I'm somewhat inclined to agree with the OP, I've been having less fun at tournaments, partially because of poor list variance, partly because of changing player attitude. Too much focus on winning @ all costs.

To me, the logic is simple. It's a game. I play games to have fun. I want to win and be challenged, but not but at the cost of having fun. What's the point of winning a game that isn't fun?

A lot of local players have felt the same way I do, so we try to change up our leagues with a mix of competitive and non-competitive events. So far we've had a hunger games style battle and a wave one tournament. It's been great fun, as well as a reminder that x-wing has much more to offer than the whitey-tightey, dry toast 100 point spread.

If everyone is flying Falcons without fail then they're all wearing big red "Hard Counter Me" hats.

Hard counters didn't exist on wave4. And i am not sure they exist now either. Anyways, the Fat Han will get dilluted with the release of new large base turret ships.

Not to speak that people seem to ignore the point. The OP is obvious to had played by the end of wave 4 a tournament, you guys should realize that the game on Wave 4 has been very stagnant with very little variance on lists, as much as you like to lie to yourselves.

The amount of variance really depends on how indepth you look at a squad. Most go "Falcon!!! It must be the exact same as all other Falcon squads, thus confirms my theory that Falcons are bad for the game". The usage of Falcons is high, but I wouldn't say that there is a critical lack of diversity.

Tournaments should have the option of bringing a 2nd list.

Is it not fun because you are losing to those lists? Had you won the entire tournament would you have made this topic?

The amount of variance really depends on how indepth you look at a squad. Most go "Falcon!!! It must be the exact same as all other Falcon squads, thus confirms my theory that Falcons are bad for the game". The usage of Falcons is high, but I wouldn't say that there is a critical lack of diversity.

Yes, because see, this Han had Veteran Instincts, Engine Upgrade, Millennium Falcon, C-3PO, and GUNNER, but that Han had Veteran Instincts, Engine Upgrade, Millennium Falcon, C-3PO, and LUKE SKYWALKER. No similarity at all, as long as you're willing to look in depth!

Ive played other games competitvely forbaround 10 yrs, the one thing that seems to keep happining in all of them is this. After most major turnys people go to the internet and copy the winning list. Then what tends to happen is this list becomes the top "meta". This happens for two resons sheer numbers of people playing said list, and the fact the best players are probly playing it as well. While this looks good on paper the winners are noaly the top players with the most experance with the list. That is until some one comes up with a way to beat the current list consintly then it becomes the new meta and the cycle begaons again.

That being said find something you enjoy learn all the ends and outs of it and HAVE FUN.

Well, we just wrapped up a 22-player charity tournament this weekend, which seems to counter the argument in this thread.

Top 4 lists (who all played each other in a set of 'championship' rounds):

• 1st: Airen Cracked with Veteran Instincts, Wedge Antilles, Garven Dreis and Biggs Darklighter
• 2nd: Dash and 2x Blues
• 3rd: Han and Wedge (not quite a 'Fat Han' list, but close-ish)
• 4th: Cmdr Kenkirk and Kath Scarlet

Technically, yes, 3 of the 4 lists brought a turret of some kind. However, only one was a YT-1300, and it wasn't particularly 'Fat' (IIRC., just had Luke, an Engine Upgrade, and VI).

There were a few players running true 'Fat Han' lists that showed up, although none ended up placing in the top 4.

I have to agree with this, comp I was at a few weeks ago and the top 4 was

Shuttle, Fel, Echo

3 Y wings X wing

Fat Han

4. X wings

So there was about 20 people here and there were prizes up for grabs, so why did not most people bring Fat Han, didn't happen. I played against some really random builds that I never see here. In fact the most prevalent build was Shuttle,defender, Phantom/Fel there was 5 versions of this( including me)

All the competitions I have been to recently and I have never played a Falcon, I think we get carried away with what people post on the Internet is what is happening and in reality in the local community it just isn't true.

My next comp is this Saturday and my list choice is two defenders or Keyan and 4 A wings, I am not alone in bringing these kind of builds and as long as other people do the X wing tournament scene is in a healthy place.

Of course local communities will vary, and it's great that yours has more variety. However, the OP is referring to his own and not some internet hysteria, so it is his reality (though I think that the latest numbers from World's prove it's not internet hysteria, anyway). Any argument that says Wave 5 is going to change that must have a very creative argument.

That's not to say that most are unbeateable, but there are certainly a couple that are very frustrating (I've seen players who were regulars at the bottom of tournament standings go to the top once they take Han and Super Friends). Either way, it is deflating to see the game turn into turret-wing for whatever reason -- whether they are strong or just popular.

I think one reason for netdecking is also fear, fear that playing something unorthodox would get you destroyed by the meta. So, players just "play it safe" and stick with tried and true top builds. For instance, in the absence of knowledge about which builds are prevalent in a meta game, it may be wise to bring a Fat Han build. Why? Because Fat Han would do well against Phantoms and would at least hold its ground against other Fat Han builds. Fat Han would suffer somewhat against TIE Swarms, but even then, the matchup is not too lopsided.

Compare that to the situation where someone brings a fun Lt. Lorrir + mini-Swarm build or something off-the-wall like that. That build would likely get destroyed by Fat Han/Phantoms.

Or it might not...but people are too scared to try such an unorthodox build.

First off, I'm not sure we should make any claims as to what is or isn't dominating the Wave 5 meta yet. Anything we speculate based on local meta is not likely to give us any REAL information just yet. The only information we have right now is the most recent Vassal tournament, and Phantom + Decimator won it all, not a Dash or Fat Han. Sure, still a turret, but you've gotta expect almost every list to have a turret while people try out new things.

Second, I find the most exciting ges involve at least 1 turret on the field. Suddenly, the game isn't just point, shoot, k turn, which literally is what the game was prior to C3PO and/or Wave 5. Imp swarm vs 4 ship rebel is way more stale than turrets. More guessing, more reliance on dice.

Third, big ships did not win any major tournaments prior to Fat Han and C3PO. This is a big deal. Give these ships their time to shine.

Fourth, turret matches don't take less overall skill, just different skills. Even Turret vs Turret is not as dull as you might think, especially with Engine upgrade or barrel rolls. Making moves to keep range 3, or out of the support ship's arc suddenly become more important than before, as the opposing turret is ALWAYS going to have a shot, things like this.

Fifth, 3 small ship rebel squads are probably still sub par, I don't expect them to win much.

Sixth, if you've ever seen both experienced and noob players flying double Falcons or other turret squads, you'll see that there is skill to those lists, just different skills.

Well, we just wrapped up a 22-player charity tournament this weekend, which seems to counter the argument in this thread.

Top 4 lists (who all played each other in a set of 'championship' rounds):

• 1st: Airen Cracked with Veteran Instincts, Wedge Antilles, Garven Dreis and Biggs Darklighter
• 2nd: Dash and 2x Blues
• 3rd: Han and Wedge (not quite a 'Fat Han' list, but close-ish)
• 4th: Cmdr Kenkirk and Kath Scarlet

Technically, yes, 3 of the 4 lists brought a turret of some kind. However, only one was a YT-1300, and it wasn't particularly 'Fat' (IIRC., just had Luke, an Engine Upgrade, and VI).

There were a few players running true 'Fat Han' lists that showed up, although none ended up placing in the top 4.

I have to agree with this, comp I was at a few weeks ago and the top 4 was

Shuttle, Fel, Echo

3 Y wings X wing

Fat Han

4. X wings

So there was about 20 people here and there were prizes up for grabs, so why did not most people bring Fat Han, didn't happen. I played against some really random builds that I never see here. In fact the most prevalent build was Shuttle,defender, Phantom/Fel there was 5 versions of this( including me)

All the competitions I have been to recently and I have never played a Falcon, I think we get carried away with what people post on the Internet is what is happening and in reality in the local community it just isn't true.

My next comp is this Saturday and my list choice is two defenders or Keyan and 4 A wings, I am not alone in bringing these kind of builds and as long as other people do the X wing tournament scene is in a healthy place.

Of course local communities will vary, and it's great that yours has more variety. However, the OP is referring to his own and not some internet hysteria, so it is his reality (though I think that the latest numbers from World's prove it's not internet hysteria, anyway). Any argument that says Wave 5 is going to change that must have a very creative argument.

That's not to say that most are unbeateable, but there are certainly a couple that are very frustrating (I've seen players who were regulars at the bottom of tournament standings go to the top once they take Han and Super Friends). Either way, it is deflating to see the game turn into turret-wing for whatever reason -- whether they are strong or just popular.

Saying it's great for "our local meta" is being a bit dismissive - Portland has a pretty big scene, and we had a bunch of players drive up for the event from Salem and Corvallis. So it was practically representative of 'all of Oregon'. I mean, no, that's not California or New York...but it's still a group representative of a pretty significant chunk of players.

IMHO, the game hasn't particularly "turned into turret wing". As it happens, I lost my round one of the event to the 'technically overweight but not fat' Han list, but it was a close-fought battle until I flubbed a maneuver, and I was running a pretty traditional doomshuttle and mini-swarm list (about the only thing really "new"-ish on my list vs older variants of it was my putting Predator on Howlrunner).

Yes, there are now a lot of turreted ships in the game, but, honestly, they just aren't that game-breaking. About the only real problem with turrets is that they 'break' the mechanic around arc-dodgers, as arc-dodging has no point against them so units that rely on it for survival are having a hard time...but that's really, really not a large number of craft. TIE Interceptors are the only obvious standout candidate for it. So, yeah, sucks to fly Interceptors at the moment - but the fix for them is coming.

And, everything else? I dunno, just not seeing the problem. And the "local" (by which I mean 'basically the entire Pacific Northwest') meta seems to reflect that.

Crying about turrets means you dont understand them. I will Vassal against anyone who thinks turrets are broken. You use turrets, i wont. I will smoke you....because you dont get it.

Turrets are not xwing easymode. They require positioning just like any other ship for optimal situations. They just fly different...AND YOU PAY in points for 360 fire.

Stop crying about turrets. Embrace autothrusters, drop it already....youre wrong.

Whether or not something is balanced really has no point on whether or not something is fun for someone.

Whether or not something is balanced really has no point on whether or not something is fun for someone.

Well, I did know a guy who went 0-3 in a tourney and still found it a lot of fun.

Well, we just wrapped up a 22-player charity tournament this weekend, which seems to counter the argument in this thread.

Top 4 lists (who all played each other in a set of 'championship' rounds):

• 1st: Airen Cracked with Veteran Instincts, Wedge Antilles, Garven Dreis and Biggs Darklighter
• 2nd: Dash and 2x Blues
• 3rd: Han and Wedge (not quite a 'Fat Han' list, but close-ish)
• 4th: Cmdr Kenkirk and Kath Scarlet

Technically, yes, 3 of the 4 lists brought a turret of some kind. However, only one was a YT-1300, and it wasn't particularly 'Fat' (IIRC., just had Luke, an Engine Upgrade, and VI).

There were a few players running true 'Fat Han' lists that showed up, although none ended up placing in the top 4.

I have to agree with this, comp I was at a few weeks ago and the top 4 was

Shuttle, Fel, Echo

3 Y wings X wing

Fat Han

4. X wings

So there was about 20 people here and there were prizes up for grabs, so why did not most people bring Fat Han, didn't happen. I played against some really random builds that I never see here. In fact the most prevalent build was Shuttle,defender, Phantom/Fel there was 5 versions of this( including me)

All the competitions I have been to recently and I have never played a Falcon, I think we get carried away with what people post on the Internet is what is happening and in reality in the local community it just isn't true.

My next comp is this Saturday and my list choice is two defenders or Keyan and 4 A wings, I am not alone in bringing these kind of builds and as long as other people do the X wing tournament scene is in a healthy place.

Of course local communities will vary, and it's great that yours has more variety. However, the OP is referring to his own and not some internet hysteria, so it is his reality (though I think that the latest numbers from World's prove it's not internet hysteria, anyway). Any argument that says Wave 5 is going to change that must have a very creative argument.

That's not to say that most are unbeateable, but there are certainly a couple that are very frustrating (I've seen players who were regulars at the bottom of tournament standings go to the top once they take Han and Super Friends). Either way, it is deflating to see the game turn into turret-wing for whatever reason -- whether they are strong or just popular.

Saying it's great for "our local meta" is being a bit dismissive - Portland has a pretty big scene, and we had a bunch of players drive up for the event from Salem and Corvallis. So it was practically representative of 'all of Oregon'. I mean, no, that's not California or New York...but it's still a group representative of a pretty significant chunk of players.

IMHO, the game hasn't particularly "turned into turret wing". As it happens, I lost my round one of the event to the 'technically overweight but not fat' Han list, but it was a close-fought battle until I flubbed a maneuver, and I was running a pretty traditional doomshuttle and mini-swarm list (about the only thing really "new"-ish on my list vs older variants of it was my putting Predator on Howlrunner).

Yes, there are now a lot of turreted ships in the game, but, honestly, they just aren't that game-breaking. About the only real problem with turrets is that they 'break' the mechanic around arc-dodgers, as arc-dodging has no point against them so units that rely on it for survival are having a hard time...but that's really, really not a large number of craft. TIE Interceptors are the only obvious standout candidate for it. So, yeah, sucks to fly Interceptors at the moment - but the fix for them is coming.

And, everything else? I dunno, just not seeing the problem. And the "local" (by which I mean 'basically the entire Pacific Northwest') meta seems to reflect that.

I wasn't actually responding to you but the poster above you, and I wasn't being dismissive. I very much wish I played in a meta that wasn't dominated by large base turrets currently, as I personally don't find playing against them in a majority of games all that fun. (You did read the part of my post where I pointed out that it wasn't necessarily about breaking the game, correct?)..

I certainly appreciate the different tactics they bring, but I find small ship battles far more nuanced and interesting than you do, and that's fine.

But, regarding your post, you haven't really given any numbers that represent your entire area other than your tournament, which included 3 large base turrets in the top 4. We obviously interpret those numbers differently, and that's fine.

I'll just say that in my area I feel like large base turrets have been the norm since our regionals last year, and for just a couple of tourneys just before Wave 5 were played less. Now they are back, so I'll be happy when Wave 6 arrives:)

Crying about turrets means you dont understand them. I will Vassal against anyone who thinks turrets are broken. You use turrets, i wont. I will smoke you....because you dont get it.

Turrets are not xwing easymode. They require positioning just like any other ship for optimal situations. They just fly different...AND YOU PAY in points for 360 fire.

Stop crying about turrets. Embrace autothrusters, drop it already....youre wrong.

Believe me, I can't wait for autothrusters, but they aren't out yet

Whether or not something is balanced really has no point on whether or not something is fun for someone.

Well, I did know a guy who went 0-3 in a tourney and still found it a lot of fun.

What people find fun is different for everyone. I wouldn't play Netrunner if losing wasn't. I do find not being able to win taking out all of the fun of playing a game concerning, but I can't speak for what a person really feels.

Whether or not something is balanced really has no point on whether or not something is fun for someone.

If it IS balanced whats the problem then?

If youve got a balanced game, its popular, but not fun for YOU... maybe the problem is YOU and not the game.

There is always mousetrap or candyland...and they're cheaper. See you. Can i have your figs? Lol.

Well, we just wrapped up a 22-player charity tournament this weekend, which seems to counter the argument in this thread.

Top 4 lists (who all played each other in a set of 'championship' rounds):

• 1st: Airen Cracked with Veteran Instincts, Wedge Antilles, Garven Dreis and Biggs Darklighter
• 2nd: Dash and 2x Blues
• 3rd: Han and Wedge (not quite a 'Fat Han' list, but close-ish)
• 4th: Cmdr Kenkirk and Kath Scarlet

Technically, yes, 3 of the 4 lists brought a turret of some kind. However, only one was a YT-1300, and it wasn't particularly 'Fat' (IIRC., just had Luke, an Engine Upgrade, and VI).

There were a few players running true 'Fat Han' lists that showed up, although none ended up placing in the top 4.

You in PDX, Xanderf? I wasn't able to attend, but I recognize the winning list from the FB update. Really wish I could have made it, but alas work, and I'm just now dipping my toes in playing.

Well, we just wrapped up a 22-player charity tournament this weekend, which seems to counter the argument in this thread.

Top 4 lists (who all played each other in a set of 'championship' rounds):

• 1st: Airen Cracked with Veteran Instincts, Wedge Antilles, Garven Dreis and Biggs Darklighter
• 2nd: Dash and 2x Blues
• 3rd: Han and Wedge (not quite a 'Fat Han' list, but close-ish)
• 4th: Cmdr Kenkirk and Kath Scarlet

Technically, yes, 3 of the 4 lists brought a turret of some kind. However, only one was a YT-1300, and it wasn't particularly 'Fat' (IIRC., just had Luke, an Engine Upgrade, and VI).

There were a few players running true 'Fat Han' lists that showed up, although none ended up placing in the top 4.

You in PDX, Xanderf? I wasn't able to attend, but I recognize the winning list from the FB update. Really wish I could have made it, but alas work, and I'm just now dipping my toes in playing.

Yup, I'm the Xander from the FB group.

It's a great group in the area, I must say - lots of really relaxed gamers, and even when 'competitive' are very forgiving of new players.

The event this weekend was at Guardian, and they do have another Winter 2014 kit, so...I rather expect we'll be running another event of some kind in the near-ish future.

Crying about turrets means you dont understand them. I will Vassal against anyone who thinks turrets are broken. You use turrets, i wont. I will smoke you....because you dont get it.

Turrets are not xwing easymode. They require positioning just like any other ship for optimal situations. They just fly different...AND YOU PAY in points for 360 fire.

Stop crying about turrets. Embrace autothrusters, drop it already....youre wrong.

If the problem is playing the same list over and over again, that could just be a problem with the players not the game.

Turrets are definitely strong ships, it would be dumb if they weren't, but not unbeatable.

The best way to change the attitude of the players you play against is to beat them reliably. That will require practice and maybe a list you don't enjoy add much. As had been mentioned many times before, good players do well with good lists, poor players do okay with good lists.

If that seems like to much investment to you, that's fine, take a break, let someone else do it and come back in 6 months or so.

Dropping in a little late in the discussion.

Fat Han is not unbeatable, no list is.

If every one is bringing Fat Han I can imagine it is boring. I would advice to teach the rebel scum a lesson and destroy them.

Bring in a squad of bomber and pound the YT-1300 with Cluster Missile for instance.

Use a TIE swarm, home in on the YT, destroy it within 2 rounds and then mop-up the remains of your opponents pittiful imagination.

Local meta can be fun, but confusing too. Among one group I regurlarly play the focus has shifted from swarms to ionizing. During a local tournament everyone played either a shuttle + mini-swarm, or a rebel squad with regeneration capabilities (R2-D2, R5-D8, R5), mind you the tournament was somewhere in May so no Rebel Aces, wave 4, or wave 5.

Dropping in a little late in the discussion.

Fat Han is not unbeatable, no list is.

If every one is bringing Fat Han I can imagine it is boring. I would advice to teach the rebel scum a lesson and destroy them.

Bring in a squad of bomber and pound the YT-1300 with Cluster Missile for instance.

Use a TIE swarm, home in on the YT, destroy it within 2 rounds and then mop-up the remains of your opponents pittiful imagination.

Local meta can be fun, but confusing too. Among one group I regurlarly play the focus has shifted from swarms to ionizing. During a local tournament everyone played either a shuttle + mini-swarm, or a rebel squad with regeneration capabilities (R2-D2, R5-D8, R5), mind you the tournament was somewhere in May so no Rebel Aces, wave 4, or wave 5.

Dropping in a little late in the discussion.

Fat Han is not unbeatable, no list is.

If every one is bringing Fat Han I can imagine it is boring. I would advice to teach the rebel scum a lesson and destroy them.

Bring in a squad of bomber and pound the YT-1300 with Cluster Missile for instance.

Use a TIE swarm, home in on the YT, destroy it within 2 rounds and then mop-up the remains of your opponents pittiful imagination.

Local meta can be fun, but confusing too. Among one group I regurlarly play the focus has shifted from swarms to ionizing. During a local tournament everyone played either a shuttle + mini-swarm, or a rebel squad with regeneration capabilities (R2-D2, R5-D8, R5), mind you the tournament was somewhere in May so no Rebel Aces, wave 4, or wave 5.

And no transport:tantive either maybe?

Nope! So no C3PO either..

You know, the Original Poster didn't even make a comment about Fat Hans being broken. He just stated that it seemd everyone was taking them. So, out of 10 games, 5 of them were against named YT-1300 lists. It doesn't matter if it's broken or not, but I'd be dang bored to play half my games against almost the same lists.

We had a local 7 person event with 3 Rebels. Two of them were named YT-1300's and the other was dual YT-2400. *yawn*

Just FYI, there was one Imperial list with Decimator that also had a Phantom. Those were the only off those two in the Imperial lists.

Fat Han won

Dual YT-2400's 2nd

I won 3rd w/ Defender, Shuttle, and Interceptor

I do miss the old days when you just didn't know what to expect when you went to a tournament.