I'm sure many of you have seen the damage vader crew on a decimator can do, doubly so when paired with a gunner.

Against low hp ships it's incredibly deadly, and really makes interceptor and phantom lists extremely ineffective, since turtling, auto thrusters, and ACD do nothing to stop it. You either have to hope you do a lot of damage to the decimator before you die from being vadered to death, or keep your best ships out of range as long as you can and hope your support ships can whittle it down for you.

Obviously it's doing damage to the decimator as well, but still.

Vader was tolerable on doom shuttles because they only had 10 hit points, one firing arc, and weren't that maneuverable. Now you have a ship with 6 more hit points, move maneuverable, and can fire 360 degrees.

I think doing an update to the card that says it's only for primary firing arc would be a good thing. Anyone else agree?

Two words: Fat Han.

So, you're saying the Force only works in the direction you're flying?

43 points is the minimum you can run the Decivader. I would love to face anyone you will intentionally damage their 43 point ship 2 hitpoints a turn.

Oh hell no.

43 Point doomed decimator is awesome.

beside,s it is 43 points of MOV for the opponent.

It also opens up room in the meta for other lists. Things that can't handle Phantoms:

ex. 2 Royals PTL with autothrusters Doomnarwhal. 3 points remaining.

Nope. Awesome as is.

43 points for the Decivader's 16 total HP.
That means that each Vader activation costs 5.375 points to deal a Crit if you don't weight HP.

That requires a ship with 4 HP to be worth a minimum of 21, a ship with 5 hp to be worth 27, &c. for activating Vader to be profitable.

In a high PS meta, that's easily achieved. Against a Swarm or Bloody Daggers scenario, not so much.

However, if you weight the kill-shot as more valuable than the rest of the HP of the ship, Vader's activation becomes substantially cheaper, while his potential to kill increases in value.

HOWEVER: Each point of damage that your DeciVader takes from an enemy increases the cost of its activation substantially.

If it takes just 4 damage (Easily done with 0 agility), suddenly Vader costs 7.166 per activation. That requires that the 5 hp ship must cost 36 points for you to profit. Again, probable in this high PS meta, but is completely unworkable against...anything else.

You still need to have the defender in some sort of firing arc. You still need to perform an attack to us Vader(crew). If the doom shuttle is by itself it practically becomes firing arc only.

I think doing an update to the card that says it's only for primary firing arc would be a good thing. Anyone else agree?

Are you suggesting we petition FFG to 1) change their game and 2) reprint their game material?

Vader's activation cost is an honest balance. Decimators are not invincible by any stretch. The ability is highly situational on a Deci...basically, don't fly a shieldless Awing, Phantom, or any 2 Hull ship near him. What is interesting is contemplating the effectiveness of using Saboteur on a Doominator. That might be fun.

So, you're saying the Force only works in the direction you're flying?

Well, it apparently does if you're on a shuttle. Or a Phantom. On a Firespray you seem to be able to add Force Flatulence into the mix, since the Force works backwards too, but not to the sides. And if Biggs is in the area, well, it's like Vader can't aim the **** thing at all!

Seriously, guys, I know that attempts at dismissive snark is the only response a lot of you can come up with whenever anyone expresses a balance concern, but you really need to try harder than that.

So, you're saying the Force only works in the direction you're flying?

Well, it apparently does if you're on a shuttle. Or a Phantom. On a Firespray you seem to be able to add Force Flatulence into the mix, since the Force works backwards too, but not to the sides. And if Biggs is in the area, well, it's like Vader can't aim the **** thing at all!

Seriously, guys, I know that attempts at dismissive snark is the only response a lot of you can come up with whenever anyone expresses a balance concern, but you really need to try harder than that.

No, he wants Vader to work in a primary arc only, Vader is dependent on you attacking a ship first. If the ship you put him on only has a forward arc then he is only activated (say focusing his anger) on a target in your primary arc. If there are more ways to attack out of arc then Vader can force grip more targets as well.

But there is no thematic reason to limit Vader to a primary arc just because there now is a turreted ship with crew capability.

If you are that afraid of Vader and want to limit him, then only allow him to trigger on an attack that hits for instance.

I know a lot of people just look at numbers, probabilities and bottom lines, wanting to fix everything that does not get used a lot in tournaments but there's a lot more than just stats on a piece of cardboard. Fluff matters.

I know a lot of people just look at numbers, probabilities and bottom lines, wanting to fix everything that does not get used a lot in tournaments but there's a lot more than just stats on a piece of cardboard. Fluff matters.

Plus, not every ship and card is always going to be equally represented in top-level tournaments. That doesn't necessarily mean they're weak, and even if they are they don't necessarily need "fixing". Everything doesn't have to be equal relative strength.

Lore wise vader can sense things in a different star system... im sure he'd have no problem sensiing a ship behind him and using the force to kill the engineer, cripple the pilot, switch off life support and 'do damage'

Wierdly though at one point in ANH the MF lands on the death star and vader 'feels a tremor'

He should be having a bloody seizure.

His kids, his old teacher, his droids (one he built) and a pilot who caused the empire loads of grief have just turned up on his doorstep.

Once again evidence that ANH was written with NO sequel in mind and georges claim he had it all mapped out for nine movies is rubbish.

Unless of course Obi-Wan was actively shielding them. .

I do remember reading way back in the early 80's, I think before RoTJ that Lucas stated he wanted to make 3 trilogies with the droids the only ones being present in all of the movies.

I know a lot of people just look at numbers, probabilities and bottom lines, wanting to fix everything that does not get used a lot in tournaments but there's a lot more than just stats on a piece of cardboard. Fluff matters.

Plus, not every ship and card is always going to be equally represented in top-level tournaments. That doesn't necessarily mean they're weak, and even if they are they don't necessarily need "fixing". Everything doesn't have to be equal relative strength.

Well, I think this should be the ultimate objective of any competitive game. The more options viable in a competitive enviroment means more variety among lists, and therefore that would mean more fun. At least IMO.

I know a lot of people just look at numbers, probabilities and bottom lines, wanting to fix everything that does not get used a lot in tournaments but there's a lot more than just stats on a piece of cardboard. Fluff matters.

Plus, not every ship and card is always going to be equally represented in top-level tournaments. That doesn't necessarily mean they're weak, and even if they are they don't necessarily need "fixing". Everything doesn't have to be equal relative strength.

Well, I think this should be the ultimate objective of any competitive game. The more options viable in a competitive enviroment means more variety among lists, and therefore that would mean more fun. At least IMO.

It's too complex to reach a perfect balance and too dynamic (new waves) to stay there even if you did. Perfect balance is disputed and the imbalance that people complain about on this board is widely exaggerated. Lastly, whatever imbalances that exist is so minimal that it won't matter at the level that most of compete at.

Vader is, frankly, more dangerous on a Lambda (Not saying Vader in a Decimator isn't, either). In a Lambda list, your other ships were often the focal points of the enemy's firepower. They're trying to cut off your Phantom, or land that one hit KO on Soontir, because those ships will win the game if it comes to last ships standing. So your Vader shuttle is durdling around, lining up nasty shots that aren't receiving any return fire.

In a Decimator, since it's fully the majority of your list (or just shy of half, at minimum) and comparable to Fat Falcon builds, the enemy is already focusing all the fire it can on the Vader's ship. If your opponent really is double Vader Gunner triggering every turn, he's taken over half the ship's HP in just two rounds. If you're firing at it, too, it should be space debris.

Well the idea of ANH originally is pretty much a carbon copy of the japanese classic 'hidden fortress'

In hidden fortress two bumbling peasants are caught up in a war between daimyos in feudal japan and inadvertantly play major parts in a was between heros... finding a powerful army in a 'hidden fortress'.

Ring any bells.....

This script for ANH was very long but it was clear from 77/78 interviews that given it nearly bankruptd him and no one thouht it would be a success there clearly wasnt a plan for any sequels let alone nine movies at that point. Vader clearly was lukes dads mate not his dad... there is no plan for luke and leia to be siblings or they wouldnt kiss etc.

I love the films (i even like the prequels a bit now) but its clear that Lucas makes it up as he goes along.

Clearly the pattern was

ANH - stand alone film... rip roaring success so

ESB and ROTJ written with a cohesive narrative as part of a trilogy.

tax bill arrives... decides to actually make the prequel trilogy he's got notes for after ROTJ but didnt need the moeny from for a decade.

Prequels universally panned, needs to save the franchise, comes up with some new ideas , sells em to disney.

(im only messsing about here, but im sure there is some truth in the above)

Well, I think this should be the ultimate objective of any competitive game. The more options viable in a competitive enviroment means more variety among lists, and therefore that would mean more fun. At least IMO.

But it's more that just a competitive game. Following that reasoning Magic would only release few cards every time, instead they've realised (and FFG has really taken that lesson to heart) that you need to service all sorts of clients to keep a game viable outside of the playtables of stores. You don't need to service just Timmy and Spike, you need to give Johnny, Melvin and Vorthos something as well.

Agreed.

This forum is tourny centric.

People here forget the vast majority of players play on the kitchen table with family and friends for a laugh and dont care about 'meta'

Like in the group of people i play with 20-30 players , some more sproadic than others... im the ONLY person on this forum and only Rob Walker in our 'playing circle' plays organised events.

My bugbear is that GW used to keep everything secret until about a month before it came out leading to silly rumour mills and arguemnts... FFG have gone too far the other way.

I know pretty much EVERYTHING abotu S&V before i even open the box now and that takes some of the fun away.

I got the decimator and the YT2400 a fortnght ago but it wasnt that exciting to get as i knew what was in it, what was worth playing etc etc since gencon....

Well the idea of ANH originally is pretty much a carbon copy of the japanese classic 'hidden fortress'

In hidden fortress two bumbling peasants are caught up in a war between daimyos in feudal japan and inadvertantly play major parts in a was between heros... finding a powerful army in a 'hidden fortress'.

Ring any bells.....

This script for ANH was very long but it was clear from 77/78 interviews that given it nearly bankruptd him and no one thouht it would be a success there clearly wasnt a plan for any sequels let alone nine movies at that point. Vader clearly was lukes dads mate not his dad... there is no plan for luke and leia to be siblings or they wouldnt kiss etc.

I love the films (i even like the prequels a bit now) but its clear that Lucas makes it up as he goes along.

Clearly the pattern was

ANH - stand alone film... rip roaring success so

ESB and ROTJ written with a cohesive narrative as part of a trilogy.

tax bill arrives... decides to actually make the prequel trilogy he's got notes for after ROTJ but didnt need the moeny from for a decade.

Prequels universally panned, needs to save the franchise, comes up with some new ideas , sells em to disney.

(im only messsing about here, but im sure there is some truth in the above)

Star Wars didn't need saving, it was raking the money in, prequels included. I think the reason George Lucas sold it is because he was sick of the endless flak he got for making three movies that only reached the level of "all right" critically (yet still made millions of dollars.)

As for Vader, he's not overpowered. Once you've experienced how quickly a Decimator's health pool drops you'll realise he's fairly well balanced on the two ships he's viable on.

Well the idea of ANH originally is pretty much a carbon copy of the japanese classic 'hidden fortress'

In hidden fortress two bumbling peasants are caught up in a war between daimyos in feudal japan and inadvertantly play major parts in a was between heros... finding a powerful army in a 'hidden fortress'.

Ring any bells.....

Oh, that ANH was based on Kurosawa's work is no secret.

This might be an interesting read?

http://www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com/completehistoryofthesequeltrilogy.html

I'd disagree, i'd say faith in his ability to deliver quality star wars movies among the fanbase was seriously rocked

Interesting site. Obviously you've read a lot more about it than me but i remember reading stuff in the early 80s as a kid where Lucas contradicted himself from one interview from the next so its not impossible to build up evidence from interviews to portray the mythos as a 'clear comprehensive plan' to 'winging it' or anything in between.