I really am trying hard to make lists with defenders, but they are just too expensive in points. You want at least 3 very solid ships in a list while playing small ships. And they just dont fit in. You can't take them with other squads, they just take an out of proportion share of points.

You can't play a named pilot with 2 generic for the defender because you already run low on points...

Also what's really garbage is Rexlers ability. There is just no way to give him a second action without stressing him or keeping him in a tight formation... It's totally worthless i was abke to trigger it next to never... And 37 points for that. No thanks.

I want to like the ship, really, but the best lists i can think of are 3 with ion cannons or Prockets, or 2 with HLC together with Jonus.

Rexler works well with a 3 turn out of combat, grabbing a target lock and then a white k with a focus. Lots of good disengage tricks with defenders.

I agree with the assessment. Though, I hope the new cannons will help them out a little bit. Still, their point cost is too high.

If you compare the Defender to the Star Viper. The defender is to costly. Before they even hit the selves my opinion has been that they should be 3 points less or more.

I kind of would really love the BTL-style title for the Defenders. That would make their damage potential utterly fearsome. Opens up a need for support ships with fleet officer or TL passing.

After attacking with primary, take another attack with cannon secondary weapon. 0 points.

Should be really neat with the newer cannons that will likely be cheaper. Now the Imperials have a heavy assault craft that is moderately maneuverable and can really dish out hurt to tanky and 4 ships builds.

Devs were too cautious when designing the defender, resulting in a ship with many drawbacks in exchange for a nice-but-not-that-powerful ability.

They require a lot of investment, not only in the ship itself, but on their almost mandatory upgrades/sinergies just to start to truly perform above other cheaper options.

While they may be 'playable'... That doesn't automatically mean 'competitive'. A real shame for one of the best looking ships in the game.

This list (and minor variations) has been doing very well for me:

Colonel Vessery (35)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

"Echo" (30)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Fire-Control System (2)

Weapons Engineer (3)

Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

"Backstabber" (16)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It's had two games vs. outrider+falcon (which seems like the worst matchup), won the first, lost the "I'd have cried if you'd positioned them like this" rematch (outrider ended with 4 hull). I think that was the only game it's lost for me, out of 8ish games total. Of the games I've won, I think V died once.

Everyone does need 5 Defenders, though. Otherwise you can't play the "running without the Howl" build: Black Squadron +Hull Upgrade +Predator (x5).

But also yes: the Defender needs a bit of something. A BTL style title would help. A point reduction is not going to happen, but would help.

For this ship, I don't think maneuverability per se would do the trick. It's never bad, but the Defender is a bruiser, a centerpiece tank. It needs more punch. I'm not sure how to do that without making it over powered, but it's how we should think about solving the Defender problem.

Delta

Delta

Rexler Brath - Veteran Instincts.

Come at me bro.

If you compare the Defender to the Star Viper. The defender is to costly. Before they even hit the selves my opinion has been that they should be 3 points less or more.

I think with the StarViper, people are still impressed with the S-loop. The dial for the StarViper is a weird one. I think people will find it will have difficulties.

If you compare the Defender to the Star Viper. The defender is to costly. Before they even hit the selves my opinion has been that they should be 3 points less or more.

I think with the StarViper, people are still impressed with the S-loop. The dial for the StarViper is a weird one. I think people will find it will have difficulties.

A much better comparison is the Agressor. IG-88D (36) vs Vessery (35)

Both have PS6

Both have a special maneuver

Both have almost exact cost

IG's action bar is better than Ves'

IG's upgrade bar is vastly superior to Ves'

IG's base stats are superior to Ves'

IG's ability is usable by himself. Ves is unable to use his ability without assistance.

Multiple IGs are able to share their special abilites for free.

At this point, not knowing the aggresor's dial is irrelevant. If the aggresor ends having a 'meh' dial, like the defender, it still surpasses it the other aspects. If the agressor ends having a better dial (my bet) then it will surpass the defender in every single aspect.

The IG-2000 is also a large base. Which affords one some cost savings. Having flown the Firespray with a HLC, let me tell you that dog fighting with a large base is an interesting experience. Personally, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop on the IG-2000, because as it is, I don't see the benefits.

I really am trying hard to make lists with defenders, but they are just too expensive in points. You want at least 3 very solid ships in a list while playing small ships. And they just dont fit in. You can't take them with other squads, they just take an out of proportion share of points.

You can't play a named pilot with 2 generic for the defender because you already run low on points...

Also what's really garbage is Rexlers ability. There is just no way to give him a second action without stressing him or keeping him in a tight formation... It's totally worthless i was abke to trigger it next to never... And 37 points for that. No thanks.

I want to like the ship, really, but the best lists i can think of are 3 with ion cannons or Prockets, or 2 with HLC together with Jonus.

Rexlers ability is actually free your buying his PS, wave fives out now you can use fleet officer to give him that extra focus he wants, I've used him with HLC and predator alongside four academy ties to great success they rush in block and distract while he takes things appart at range.

As for lists:

2 x onyx defender and a mercenary with recon specialist, solid firepower tough and you can control movement.

2 x delta with HLC plus Jonas, some use decoy I gave him predator either way it's a solid list.

3 x delta with ion, great at control.

So that's four that I've used and won with you can try.

The IG-2000 is also a large base. Which affords one some cost savings. Having flown the Firespray with a HLC, let me tell you that dog fighting with a large base is an interesting experience. Personally, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop on the IG-2000, because as it is, I don't see the benefits.

You will pardon me if I am not sold on the S-loop as being superior to the K-turn. The possibility of facing the wrong direction is a big problem for the ships that only have S-loops. And being a large base means it is a big target, with less life than other large base ships. We still don't have nearly enough info on Iggy on making any sort of call on how well he will fair. Having flown a Firespray enough, I can tell you the primary arc only is going to be an issue, S-loop or no.

I've already figured out several tactics to take advantage of the other guy using the s loop, I can't be alone in that.

It's going to be real easy to mess it up and leave yourself out of arc but right where the enemy wants you.

Hothie faced Vessory in the final round of flight one at worlds.

I was thinking I should check the Worlds and other tournament reports to see how often the Defender does show up.

Myself I have a list with Rexler, w/HLC and 3 Black squad ties with Predator that I rather like.

Hothie actually faced 2 Vessory squads. And it looks like every Defender pilot had a showing.

This reminds me that I need to finish my Worlds 2014 scripts done tonight to parse the lists, with weighted averages etc. It should be done tonight, although you can see Sozin's website for some details in the meantime.

Defender's represented about 4% of all points spent, which is only slightly below average. However their overall placement in the tournament was very poor. None of them made it into the Top 32.

Out of the 200+ squads, saying anything that didn't make the cut had a poor showing is not the full story. There were a lot of very unique squads that missed the cut because of tie breakers, which can randomly screw people. The 4-2's should all be equally considered good showings. Since Hothie made it in with a 4-2 record, the second Vessory squad he faced likely ended up 3-2, barring him being paired up or down. That is fairly reasonable showing.

You are correct, you need to look at some sort of weighted average. Right now I just have one weighted average programmed, and it is attendance / final ranking.

Using that metric, the Defenders are still near the bottom of the list. I may try using a 2nd weighting method as well, that is less top-heavy.

You aren't understanding what having S-loop does. It is not like the white k-turn for a defender at all, or to make a ship an arc-dodging machine via having a lot of useful greens. It's about the k-turn.

S-loops are there to make K-turns on a ship using it less predictable, as simple as that. A turn we see a ship that has to K-turn, we know he is going straight, in this case, there are more options. What i don't really know is how useful it will be IF the ships that have it end up being played as an interceptor/a-wing solely, because you would want push the limit. But it is more likely that their dials won't permit that (not enough good greens), and advanced sensors become a must in those ships (atleast, the high PS ones).

Can you "mess up" with a regular K-turn ? Sure, dealing with an S-loop is slightly different because there are 2 directions where he could go, and with advanced sensors, well, good luck blocking it.

t's already hard to stop a B-wing with advanced sensors from kturning, and they have the shortest k-turn, and it can only be done in one direction.

I'm really loving

Rear Admiral Chiraneau — VT-49 Decimator 46

Expose 4

Ysanne Isard 4

Experimental Interface 3

Colonel Vessery — TIE Defender 35

Veteran Instincts 1

Heavy Laser Cannon 7

With all the turrets I'd rather run a defender than an interceptor or phantom. Even with AT.

Autothruster isn't good enough to make the Interceptor kil off use of the Defender. Heck I won't use autothruster its quote unquote special ability isn't good enoug for me to stop turets 1 shoting me. I'M sticking with SD and Targeting computer and RGI.

See, what happens when you choose the wrong S-loop? What happens if they are going the opposite direction of where you thought they would go? Suddenly, you have a few ships you can't shoot, that will likely have a few shots on you due to Iggy's large size.

Wow. Was looking forward to buying my first TIE defender this weekend...along with the phantom.

The D looks pretty cool.

the validity of defenders honestly has nothing to do with interceptors with auto thrusters. In fact I don't think auto thrusters are suddenly going to make interceptors into a super competetive ship. I think the only interceptor you will see competetively is sontir fel. The defender is its own ship and has its own overpriced issues. It's hardly on the level of advanced yet. And it's a fairly durable ship w a cannon which isn't that common. Also an interceptor always has he chance to be one shotted whereas the defender can't.

I don't understand all the Tie Defender hate. First, it's a cool looking ship. I don't play tourney, just me and some friends, and we definitely fly casual. So, I can't speak about what the "meta" is and how it does in tournaments.

But the Defender flies weird -- the red 1 and 2 turns will get you if you're not careful. Plus, it's vulnerable to stress. Shredding stress with this ship is pretty hard unless you're going straight.

That being said, 3 shield, 3 hull, and 3 agility go a *long* way for survivability. Yes, as an Interceptor lover can attest, the 3 agility dice can fail you. But at least with the Defender, you have some shields and hull to protect you.

I've also noticed that my opponents are never surprised by the white 4-k turn. It's pretty much a given I'm going to use it when the opportunity is there. That being said, my defenders are usually the last ship standing, and they can definitely hold their own in that situation.

FYI, on the subject of good cannon platforms, wait until the "Heavy Scyk" comes out. A 21-22 point ship with a Heavy Laser Cannon.

FYI, on the subject of good cannon platforms, wait until the "Heavy Scyk" comes out. A 21-22 point ship with a Heavy Laser Cannon.

One concern though is paying 9 points to upgrade a 3HP ship you are gonna pay X-wing/B-Wing prices for Tie Fighter Durability (albeit slightly more punch than an X-wing/B-wing)

I don't understand all the Tie Defender hate. First, it's a cool looking ship. I don't play tourney, just me and some friends, and we definitely fly casual. So, I can't speak about what the "meta" is and how it does in tournaments.

But the Defender flies weird -- the red 1 and 2 turns will get you if you're not careful. Plus, it's vulnerable to stress. Shredding stress with this ship is pretty hard unless you're going straight.

That being said, 3 shield, 3 hull, and 3 agility go a *long* way for survivability. Yes, as an Interceptor lover can attest, the 3 agility dice can fail you. But at least with the Defender, you have some shields and hull to protect you.

I've also noticed that my opponents are never surprised by the white 4-k turn. It's pretty much a given I'm going to use it when the opportunity is there. That being said, my defenders are usually the last ship standing, and they can definitely hold their own in that situation.

I agree, it flies weird. And that might be a point that is causing people issues. If you don't like how it flies, no matter of upgrades will fix it. It is a ship that needs practice.